Page 9 of 14 FirstFirst ...
7
8
9
10
11
... LastLast
  1. #161
    I am Murloc! Chonar's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    The Netherlands
    Posts
    5,884
    I think they're competent in their craft, but beholden to too many restrictions and people above them enforcing their restrictions.

    You got the story that needs telling
    The story that the game is telling
    The story how the playerbase is experiencing it (not the same)
    The knowledge of the next expanion roughly shaped they cant undermine through their writing
    The plans Blizzard has for current and future characters
    etc etc etc.

    Lack of creative freedom creates awkward writing. The fact that a bunch of stories were still entertaining is more a testament to their ability than anything else.
    Looking marvelous in velvet.

  2. #162
    Immortal TEHPALLYTANK's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Texas(I wish it were CO)
    Posts
    7,512
    Quote Originally Posted by Vorkreist View Post
    The only sane way you could say something like that is if you never touched any of the previous games. D3 and SC2 have taken a giant dump on how amazing the story was for first Diablo and Starcraft games.
    I did skip D1 and D2, but I played through the entirety of SC and Broodwar.

    I don't see much of a disconnect between the story of SC and SC2, do you have anything specific to cite as an example of where SC2 trampled over the original lore? (Excluding anything from LotV, because as I already said I think LotV took a strange turn for a reason that has literally nothing to do with the story).
    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbamboozal View Post
    Intelligence is like four wheel drive, it's not going to make you unstoppable, it just sort of tends to get you stuck in more remote places.
    Quote Originally Posted by MerinPally View Post
    If you want to be disgusted, next time you kiss someone remember you've got your mouth on the end of a tube which has shit at the other end, held back by a couple of valves.

  3. #163
    The Insane Syegfryed's Avatar
    7+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    Darkshore, Killing Living and Dead elves
    Posts
    19,267
    Quote Originally Posted by Bennett View Post
    > better plot
    > plot point that makes no sense


    Good one
    you serious believe, with a straight face, that the alliance had not a single reason to attack the horde before they got their ass kicked? LUL

  4. #164
    I believe the need to justify new content for each expansion is more important than making a consistent story in the MMO. And this has been the problem with the story since the MMO started. Sure, there were problems with the story in the RTS but at least it felt like chapters in a book logically going from one place to the next. In the MMO one expansion may as well be in a different book from the next one. The stories don't line up at all.

    Current expansions use writing to justify the gameplay and the story doesn't have any consistency or merit in its own right. After WOD, players left alternate draenor after fighting the Iron Horde and were now are back on Azeroth and fighting the legion. Totally nothing to do with alternate Draenor anymore, that story is left in the dust. None of the issues of having alternate dimensions and portals and multiple versions of same characters is addressed again. The next expansion starts off with the legion invading azeroth, but instead of infinite waves of demons over all of azeroth they only attack one zone. That is just bad writing. Then inexplicably, instead of the factions fighting together, all of a sudden the factions are split again because of bad LOS in the terrain. Like seriously? Its bad writing because they could have either a) had the factions team up and be done with it or b) actually had Sylvanas betray the alliance and be done with it as well no middle ground nonsense. And this theme of not being able to pick a path and stick with it will be an ongoing problem for the Horde and Sylvanas. So after going to the class order halls, instead of learning everything to learn about the lore of our classes and all the abilities and talents therein, we learn about a weapon and "borrow" abilities tied to the weapon and this becomes a recurring theme. Which results in players actually not getting any new "class" abilities or knowledge from the order halls, just a weapon that goes inert at the end of the expansion. Now that "writing" was all justified by gameplay decisions not any serious "lore". Because all the actual "class" lore was thrown out the window in many respects. Then we get the return of Illidan and the Illidari and now he is the hero. Another old RTS character conveniently written as a plot device to open a portal to Argus. Ok great, so we go find all these additional "artifacts" from all over azeroth and we use them to beat the world titan soul of Argus with the help of some recovering titans. And as a result Archimonde starts forming from a cloud and stabs Azeroth with his sword and.... "the end" of the story. None of that was ever followed up on in BFA. BFA literally takes the residue of the sword and after that just becomes another series of convenient plot devices to justify another expansion that deviates from one plot to the next and never follows through on any of them as if you were reading an actual story in a book. It starts off as a faction war, where the "writing" isn't clear if Sylvanas is actually "evil" or just "misunderstood" in burning down teldrassil. But it happens to be a plot device to start the "faction war" theme. However, instead of actually fighting (it was a cinematic cutscene after all), players go off to explore the oceans and find another race of trolls and humans that just happen to be thick(yeah that is a plot device). Thus the faction war gets hijacked in the middle because the plot and "writing". So as the focus is in the seas, we get a side story about Ashzara another old RTS character, that is again used as a plot device to deviate to another story line. Now it is about an old god and now players have to fight the old gods in their home territory. And after that, we go back to Sylvanas and now she is really just "bad" because of game play/narrative reasons hates both alliance and horde and has become super overpowered because of some unknown "death"entity. And that "writing" opens the way to Shadowlands to find out about the death entity and now the factions are friends again(?). No real satisfying treatment of the old gods, not real satisfying conclusion of the faction war, no real satisfying conclusion for the burning of teldrassil. Now we are simply off on a whole different story line and that other stuff is done with.

    Now if those stories were done in an RTS, they likely would follow a more coherent pattern and be done a lot better. The legion invasion would have been treated as a proper invasion, unfortunately that would also mean that players would not be the main focus. So instead of "players" finding these artifacts and doing the raids and dungeons, some new "hero" character would be doing the work and other "hero" characters on the 'bad" side would be created to oppose them. Thus the narrative would continue consistently like an actual story. As of now, since players do most of the work, there are no new recurring NPC "heroes" that have been added to the lore. Most of the NPC heroes are those either from the RTS or Vanilla WOW.

    Given that the story has to support the need of the business to keep paying for new expansions and coming up with new content for each expansion, I think this is about as good as you can expect. It isn't as bad as it could be, even though story wise it isn't that great, especially compared to the RTS. But who plays games for deep stories?
    Last edited by InfiniteCharger; 2020-09-09 at 02:34 PM.

  5. #165
    The Insane Syegfryed's Avatar
    7+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    Darkshore, Killing Living and Dead elves
    Posts
    19,267
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    "The whole game is a sham, because a Rogue could just kill Gul'dan while he's sleeping." You're aware that's not really how stories work, I take it? I mean there is a degree of suspension of disbelief involved here. Since what was holding them there was also apparently drawing on their essence to keep the Dark Portal up, physical death may not have stopped the process all that well, either.
    that was a horrendous extrapolation from what we had, and you are trying to make sense out of the plot hole, again

    they were right there, in the plate, we could have killed then, end their threat and also end the dark portal, plain and simple, but we didn't because pLoT, instead of a better scenario, they just free puff

    what if we free then, we try to kill then, but gul'dan clean the floor with us, but don't kill us, because his power was drained? that would make things more enjoyable, make more sense, we were not just the dumbasses who freed gul'dan to cause hellfire and legion after all, we at least try to smoke him.

    Freeing the villain like that is not a good plot device.
    Last edited by Syegfryed; 2020-09-09 at 02:14 PM.

  6. #166
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Epic Premium
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Philadelphia, PA-US
    Posts
    45,577
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    that was a horrendous extrapolation from what we had., and you are trying to make sense out of the plot hole, again

    they were right there, in the plate, we could have killed then and end their threat and also end the dark portal, plain and simple, but we didn't because pLoT, instead of a better scenario, they just free puff
    Not really. The goal was closing the Dark Portal - you didn't really even know the Shadow Council members were even here. Even if you did know, it was an entirely different world and timeline, so perhaps they were different people? The PC could be excused for not even knowing who Teron'gor originally was, or even Cho'gall depending if they were the ones who entered the Bastion of Twilight canonically. By the time you encounter Gul'dan, who everyone ought to know at least by reputation, you'd already freed the other two and Gul'dan was exhorting you to free him as the quickest means of shutting down the Portal and ending the threat to the Vanguard forces.

    Sure, *maybe* they could've killed them and spared themselves a lot of narrative and content - but then the Valar in LotR could've also got up off their duffs and ended the threat of Sauron with a snap of their fingers (considering Sauron was himself just an upstart minor angel). Using hindsight and hyperbolic justifications to cut the plot out of a narrative is just a bad argument. Perfect logic and zero errors in judgment will *always* result in quick resolution, which isn't really what you're aiming for when, you know, you're trying to tell a story.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  7. #167
    I think there's a lot of inconsistency in the quality of the writing. some of the quests and story are very good, some are pretty bad and most is somewhere between the two. overall I think it's probably fairly good but the bad is definitely noticeable
    whether it comes from lack of talent, "too many chefs", poor coordination, etc is harder to pin down

    as for the books, they're a pretty mixed bag too. I never go into a games book with high expectations (much like movies based on games) so I'm not too disappointed by them and I do remember The Last Guardian standing out amongst the early ones as being particularly enjoyable

  8. #168
    Man this whole thread is just one giant cringe factory.

    Its interesting how this forum has managed to keep an active following of people, over many years now, who literally just hate the wow lore, yet doesnt part ways with it. Instead they dig really deep into it and discuss it vehemently on this site(and others i presume). They keep reading the lore - then rushing here to say how much it sucks.

    To me thats just so fucking cringe. Why not spend your time on something you like instead?
    Extremism and radicalisation is the bane of society

  9. #169
    The Insane Syegfryed's Avatar
    7+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    Darkshore, Killing Living and Dead elves
    Posts
    19,267
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Not really. The goal was closing the Dark Portal - you didn't really even know the Shadow Council members were even here. Even if you did know, it was an entirely different world and timeline, so perhaps they were different people? The PC could be excused for not even knowing who Teron'gor originally was, or even Cho'gall depending if they were the ones who entered the Bastion of Twilight canonically. By the time you encounter Gul'dan, who everyone ought to know at least by reputation, you'd already freed the other two and Gul'dan was exhorting you to free him as the quickest means of shutting down the Portal and ending the threat to the Vanguard forces.
    just because we didn't knew they were there don't mean we could not kill then, we are not the dumb type of soldier do just do what is told when we know it is one main villains, they were shadow council, and everyone knew what the shadow council was up to, we faced cho'gal and we knew stories about gul'dan, we are not stupid

    Why waste time destroying those runes? seems like the quick way was to cut his head off.

    Again, you are trying to justify a nonsense with weak points, completely invalid since none of that even play out, we just free the shadow council to fuck up the world, they could have handle much better, but they didn't, therefore, they were incompetent here.

    Sure, *maybe* they could've killed them and spared themselves a lot of narrative and content -
    or maybe they could have written a better story that doesn't need us being dumb heroes, setting the villain free just for plot device

    they could have made other scenarios that we were forced to free then, that we try to kill then but we do not succeed and things like that, the way we see is too much convenient, almost like a deus ex machina kind of thing.

  10. #170
    Quote Originally Posted by ClassicPeon View Post
    To me thats just so fucking cringe. Why not spend your time on something you like instead?
    I find someone who spends his time bitching about others instead of playing the game he so fervently defends way more cringe.

  11. #171
    There are clearly too many cooks in the kitchen when it comes to writing WoW. It was a lot better back in the day when Metzen pretty much wrote everything. Not saying he's the man, just that having one person who can make final decisions is always more efficient than a group with debates and conflict. That's why they have a chain of command in the Army, not a democratic process.

  12. #172
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Epic Premium
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Philadelphia, PA-US
    Posts
    45,577
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    just because we didn't knew they were there don't mean we could not kill then, we are not the dumb type of soldier do just do what is told when we know it is one main villains, they were shadow council, and everyone knew what the shadow council was up to, we faced cho'gal and we knew stories about gul'dan, we are not stupid

    Why waste time destroying those runes? seems like the quick way was to cut his head off.

    Again, you are trying to justify a nonsense with weak points, completely invalid since none of that even play out, we just free the shadow council to fuck up the world, they could have handle much better, but they didn't, therefore, they were incompetent here.
    If you don't know them, then why kill them? They're seemingly not enemies considering the Iron Horde has them captive, after all. And as I said before - it was a different world in a different timeline entirely, which was also known. So who's to say they were enemies in this world? On the heels of that, breaking the runes holding them in place was seemingly required to fight them - and given that they immediately portal out on doing so, that probably would've amounted to nothing. Long story short, there's really nothing "weak" or invalid about that WoD intro as a plot point, it just was what it was. A decision was made in the short-term that had unexpected bad long-term effects. This happens all the time in real life and created drama as a byproduct. It was also an interesting way to introduce those characters to an audience who may not have had much in the way of prior knowledge of them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    or maybe they could have written a better story that doesn't need us being dumb heroes, setting the villain free just for plot device

    they could have made other scenarios that we were forced to free then, that we try to kill then but we do not succeed and things like that, the way we see is too much convenient, almost like a deus ex machina kind of thing.
    The story that was told was fine - it explained the reason that we freed them (to de-power the Dark Portal), and set-up several plotlines to be explored later on. And fighting them without a group or raid behind us would've ended in defeat for us in any case, because they were the bloody Shadow Council, all of which turn out to be raid-level bosses in their own right. By the time you whittled them all down to nothing the Azerothian Vanguard forces might well have been dead and the Iron March would be conquering Azeroth.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  13. #173
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    but then the Valar in LotR could've also got up off their duffs and ended the threat of Sauron with a snap of their fingers (considering Sauron was himself just an upstart minor angel).
    1) Do not insult Tolkien by comparing his work to WoW's drivel.
    2) I can only assume you read the Cliff Notes or you'd know it was explicitly spelled out why that scenario could not happen.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex86el View Post
    "Orc want, orc take." and "Orc dissagrees, orc kill you to win argument."
    Quote Originally Posted by Toho View Post
    The Horde is basically the guy that gets mad that the guy that they just beat the crap out of had the audacity to bleed on them.
    Why no, people don't just like Sylvie for T&A: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ery-Cinematic/

  14. #174
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Epic Premium
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Philadelphia, PA-US
    Posts
    45,577
    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    1) Do not insult Tolkien by comparing his work to WoW's drivel.
    2) I can only assume you read the Cliff Notes or you'd know it was explicitly spelled out why that scenario could not happen.
    I'll make whatever comparisons I choose to, and yes, I know the story and the reasons why the Valar don't intercede. I'm saying that this kind of second-guessing of the narrative itself is ultimately pointless - the same way choosing to sit on your ass and not answer the call to adventure in a fantasy context is pointless.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  15. #175
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    I'll make whatever comparisons I choose to
    Dont expect to be taken seriously then.

  16. #176
    Quote Originally Posted by Verdugo View Post
    I find someone who spends his time bitching about others instead of playing the game he so fervently defends way more cringe.
    Interesting. Where am i "fervently" defending the game?

    How do you know i'm not playing the game?

    Where you so emotionally struck by my post that you forgot you might have to substantiate the claims you just made? :P

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Verdugo View Post
    Dont expect to be taken seriously then.
    You know that a comparison and a wild unsibstantiated claim isnt the same thing right?
    Extremism and radicalisation is the bane of society

  17. #177
    Quote Originally Posted by ClassicPeon View Post
    How do you know i'm not playing the game?
    How do you know I am not spending time on something I like?

  18. #178
    Quote Originally Posted by Verdugo View Post
    How do you know I am not spending time on something I like?
    I never said you didnt??
    Extremism and radicalisation is the bane of society

  19. #179
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Epic Premium
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Philadelphia, PA-US
    Posts
    45,577
    Quote Originally Posted by Verdugo View Post
    Dont expect to be taken seriously then.
    Why not? I've actually long been a fan of Tolkien's works, but I don't really acknowledge them on the nigh-religious level that many hold them to. Tolkien, like all authors who write sprawling worlds, has a number of mistakes, errors, inconsistencies, and outright retcons in his writing. Just a couple off the top of my head:

    • Who's older, Tom Bombadil or Treebeard? Tolkien claims both of them are the eldest beings on Arda when introduced.
    • Aragorn professes knowledge of all lands between Rivendell and the Misty Mountains, and then later claims not to be familiar with "troll country" that is geographically between the two on a straight course.
    • Balrogs: winged and wingless, the narrative has it both ways in practically the same chapter.
    • Barad-dûr was forged using the power of the One Ring, and yet later is was built before the One Ring was made (e.g. in the Tale of Years).
    • Sauron's very name is considered a profanity, and one that Sauron himself does not utter or permit his underlings to use. And yet his herald, the Mouth of Sauron, both introduces himself as such and calls his master "Sauron" to others.
    • Distances in almost every book and story change nigh constantly, most especially the distance from Hobbiton to Rivendell.

    So yes, even something heralded as one of the greatest works of fiction in history is full of errors and issues.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  20. #180
    For me this question is as easy to answer as stealing candy from a kid.

    YES, they are!

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •