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  1. #141
    The Patient october breeze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doffen View Post
    Would be correct if they explained how it works. But that's not what they did. They explained the intended use of Covenants and why they want it to be a big part of Shadowlands.
    They are explaining the philosophy behind it. And when you have explain the philosophy and direction of a game system, which is supposed to be just fun, and most people are scratching their heads to understand wtf is going on or disagree with you, it means the system is terrible!

    I wonder, why they have implemented such convoluted and controversial system in the beginning? Why indeed?

  2. #142
    Quote Originally Posted by otaXephon View Post
    I was just using your post as a segue into my carefully worded rant about my personal distaste for the system. Sorry.

    And I'm glad you like it. There are likely more people who are agnostic towards this system than against it but I can't help but foresee the myriad of issues it will bring about (especially for people who try to PuG high-level content [ie, me]) and have an extreme level of skepticism wash over me.
    I feel used.

    I also pug high level content(m+), and I have no issues with it myself. I don't usually play the best class/spec but has always performed well compared to others anyway. To me Covenants will be no different than not having rank 3 CoS for example. The only issue as I see it is the tuning however, like I said in an earlier thread, it does not feel that good to choose fun when fun is 20% damage behind. And I am quite critical towards blizzard on this matter. Maybe not that much for me, but I do think about others(gasp) that feel the need to perform at 100% all the time and feel they need the best power to get there. And don't mistake this for me saying I can be good without it but other's can't, far from it. Some players really want to perform at the highest level and seek whatever they can do to maximize it. It's just me having a less stressful thinking behind it(man my english is good).

    Like I said yesterday and the day before and a month ago, blizzard need to tune it NOW, not during the first raid. That's too late and even I might join the hatewagon if they wait until then.

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    Quote Originally Posted by october breeze View Post
    They are explaining the philosophy behind it. And when you have explain the philosophy and direction of a game system, which is supposed to be just fun, and most people are scratching their heads to understand wtf is going on or disagree with you, it means the system is terrible!

    I wonder, why they have implemented such convoluted and controversial system in the beginning? Why indeed?
    That's what you meant? Then my bad. I thought you meant they explained how the systems actually work.
    - Enough prattling. Let them come. We shall grind their bones to dust.

  3. #143
    Quote Originally Posted by Doffen View Post
    I feel used.

    I also pug high level content(m+), and I have no issues with it myself. I don't usually play the best class/spec but has always performed well compared to others anyway. To me Covenants will be no different than not having rank 3 CoS for example. The only issue as I see it is the tuning however, like I said in an earlier thread, it does not feel that good to choose fun when fun is 20% damage behind. And I am quite critical towards blizzard on this matter. Maybe not that much for me, but I do think about others(gasp) that feel the need to perform at 100% all the time and feel they need the best power to get there. And don't mistake this for me saying I can be good without it but other's can't, far from it. Some players really want to perform at the highest level and seek whatever they can do to maximize it. It's just me having a less stressful thinking behind it(man my english is good).

    Like I said yesterday and the day before and a month ago, blizzard need to tune it NOW, not during the first raid. That's too late and even I might join the hatewagon if they wait until then.
    It's really hard to believe that Blizzard is going to properly balance anything when the deadline for the expansion is less than two months away. These are discussions they should have had with us six months ago and their stubborn tendency to seemingly wait until the last minute is exactly why I'm so skeptical of them pulling this off successfully. Blizzard's words are meaningless when past actions have proven time and time again that they are overwhelmingly reactive instead of being proactive.

  4. #144
    Quote Originally Posted by otaXephon View Post
    It's really hard to believe that Blizzard is going to properly balance anything when the deadline for the expansion is less than two months away. These are discussions they should have had with us six months ago and their stubborn tendency to seemingly wait until the last minute is exactly why I'm so skeptical of them pulling this off successfully. Blizzard's words are meaningless when past actions have proven time and time again that they are overwhelmingly reactive instead of being proactive.
    You are not wrong, and the criticism is spot on. I think they have been too slack on beta invite as well as waiting too long to tune. They have started somewhat, but they better hurry. Every player are just as important here, and even if I say that I love the way Covenants are and how it works, it's not only me that needs to be catered to. I got guildies that takes performance above everything else, friends that wants to be as good as they can, I got guildies that see a transmog and that will be the reason for their choice and so on. Bit of nonsensical words from me here, but it's to make a point. I think Covenant are very cool, and the design is something I like too. But tuning it properly are just so damn important for the overall player base.

    Like you say, you are sceptical, I think we all can be. We have seen blizzard use months into the live game to tune something properly. Legendaries, Corruptions, tier sets and most importantly, classes. They can't do that with this. I'll survive, but others might not.
    Last edited by Doffen; 2020-09-10 at 02:01 AM.
    - Enough prattling. Let them come. We shall grind their bones to dust.

  5. #145
    Quote Originally Posted by Doffen View Post
    You are not wrong, and the criticism is spot on. I think they have been too slack on beta invite as well as waiting too long to tune. They have started somewhat, but they better hurry. Every player are just as important here, and even if I say that I love the way Covenants are and how it works, it's not only me that needs to be catered to. I got guildies that takes performance above everything else, friends that wants to be as good as they can, I got guildies that see a transmog and that will be the reason for their choice and so on. Bit of nonsensical words from me here, but it's to make a point. I think Covenant are very cool, and the design is something I like too. But tuning it properly are just so damn important for the overall player base.

    Like you say, you are sceptical, I think we all can be. We have seen blizzard use months into the live game to tune something properly. Legendaries, Corruptions, tier sets and most importantly, classes. They can't do that with this. I'll survive, but others might not.
    What's frustrating to me is that Ion does interviews with people like Preach where he says explicitly that they're aware of the concerns and they have a "back-up plan" (pull the ripcord) in hand. But then months go on and nothing changes and we get this lengthy post where he spends four paragraphs basically saying "you think you do but you don't." I'd be less irritated if they were more direct with their reasoning. Don't tell us you're open to the idea of change when past precedence has clearly told us that you prefer to release these systems into the wild before tuning anything. It's hard not to be cynical and wonder why they even bother in the first place because there doesn't seem to be a positive outcome that doesn't involve breaking promises or lots of "we made an oopsie" retrospective dev watercoolers after shit inevitably hits the fan.

    I suppose time will tell but it's still extremely disappointing to see things play out like this.

  6. #146
    The Patient
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    tldr: watcher tells us to stfu and get in line with the covenant choices.

  7. #147
    Quote Originally Posted by otaXephon View Post
    Blizzard: "Yeah, we know you really want this but we're just gonna straight deep dick you guys with the system the way it is and hopefully the community will sort itself out."

    Except, you know, it never does. It hasn't in the past. It won't in the future. And it certainly won't happen as long as we have a lead developer who's perfectly okay using millions of paying subscribers as a test bed for his shitty game design decisions. I'm usually on Blizzard's side for a lot of their decisions but this seems exceptionally boneheaded and I cannot for the life of me seeing this system exist like this longer than a single content patch.
    Excellent post. The sad reality is that come 9.1 or 9.2 Blizzard will "change their minds" about this and, through some ham-fisted story development whereby the Covenants decide to Captain Planet and join together for the greater good, you'll be allowed access to any covenant ability you want. They'll sell it like this is them listening to feedback, but it isn't. It's their way of hooking people back into the game for each new patch, exactly like they have done by loosening restrictions/"iterating" on systems since Artifact Knowledge in Legion.

    Regardless of whether we can get them to change it at this point, this is a terrible, terrible decision, and it'll be memed for a long time into the future similar to "you think you do, but you don't" when it comes to Blizzard digging their heels in on shit they don't understand. The worst bit for me is that they clearly have zero understanding of their own community, where they continually say shit like "we're gonna work with the community to make sure everyone gets along!" as if people haven't been min-maxing since 2004 or publicly screening their pug groups using player-made tools since Wrath.

  8. #148
    Quote Originally Posted by Kallisto View Post
    These people then should be shunned out of the game, not catered to.
    These people are what keep WoW popular and fun to watch.

    I realize not EVERY good player is toxic, but most are, because you need to min-max at high levels of play, and if you won't you have to be denied by people who won't accept it. Nobody wants to watch somebody re-run the heroic dungeon for the millionth time, they want to watch the high rated PvPers and high end raiders play optimally against appropriately tuned challenges. This requires playing a specific way, and the covenant system works DIRECTLY against that philosophy.
    Last edited by Fleugen; 2020-09-10 at 02:57 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by smrund View Post
    I'm sorry sir, but we do not serve complimentary cheese when you bring your own whine.

  9. #149
    Ahh well, at least covenants will be palatable in 9.3. Looking forward to that patch.

  10. #150
    Blizzard are right about covenants
    All the people mad about it are stupid and shortsighted

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    Quote Originally Posted by Railander View Post
    translation: it's ok for PvE gear to be BiS in PvP, but it's absolutely unacceptable that PvP gear is anywhere near competitive for PvE.
    Yes. PVP is an afterthought against PVE

  11. #151
    Scarab Lord Razorice's Avatar
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    They can "address the issues" with Covenants and polish the shit out of them, but the fact remains: One or Two covenants will be superior based on your class/spec and people you play PvE/PvP content with will want those BiS Covenants. I personally don't see anything wrong with it. Why pick the inferior option? However, I can see why some people might not like that.

  12. #152
    Quote Originally Posted by Razorice View Post
    They can "address the issues" with Covenants and polish the shit out of them, but the fact remains: One or Two covenants will be superior based on your class/spec and people you play PvE/PvP content with will want those BiS Covenants. I personally don't see anything wrong with it. Why pick the inferior option? However, I can see why some people might not like that.
    The problem is that the abilities themselves are only one half of the equation. It's a combination of the Covenant abilities and the Soulbinds that concerns players. These aren't things that can easily be buffed/nerfed (because many interact with the Covenant abilities themselves) and are extremely reminiscent of early iterations of Azerite gear. And since we already know how that last story played out it's absolutely worth being skeptical that somehow Blizzard will mysteriously get everything right this time around.

  13. #153
    Quote Originally Posted by Nnyco View Post
    So wheres my raid power, my m+ power, my wq power?
    Every stat helps you in PVE..

    Crit is nerfed by 50% in PVP. Theres youre "raid power"

  14. #154
    Quote Originally Posted by Alcsaar View Post
    Yes, which makes it *another* layer of potential denial that you have to try to get around.
    Not if you fail any of the previous checks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fkiolaris View Post
    I guess all I can say based on what they wrote about Covenants is that I am not buying Shadowlands until they decouple player abilities from them. Shame, as in many ways I was hoping it would be a back-to-form expansion from Blizzard.
    I guess we will see you in 10.0 then. They've made a decision and explained why they cannot be decoupled from abilities. You are doing the right thing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Swnem View Post
    They don't get it. I agree with everything until here:


    This is at odds with the game they have. No, there won't be a Venthyr paladin and a Kyrian paladin. There will be a good paladin for the content being run and a bad paladin for the content being run. You are not adding choices, you are adding wrong choices aka traps.
    For this to work devs, you have to break all addons and all first and third party sites that allow you to track performance and maximize it. It is impossible to make both of these things work. You can't have both, it's impossible. Choose one.
    Make up your mind on what kind of game you want to make.
    They have decided. It's up to you if you want to carry in playing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Musta View Post
    completely this. I wonder if they are not just pulling right now cuz they couldnt make the changes in time. Totally possible tbh.
    Like they pulled the ripcord on azerite gear? Legendaries? Esscences? Artifact weapons? Blizzard have made their decision. Now it's up to you to decide if you will play.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nizah View Post
    why so mad bro

  15. #155
    Scarab Lord Razorice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by otaXephon View Post
    The problem is that the abilities themselves are only one half of the equation. It's a combination of the Covenant abilities and the Soulbinds that concerns players. These aren't things that can easily be buffed/nerfed (because many interact with the Covenant abilities themselves) and are extremely reminiscent of early iterations of Azerite gear. And since we already know how that last story played out it's absolutely worth being skeptical that somehow Blizzard will mysteriously get everything right this time around.
    Ah yes, the Soulbinds! Completely slipped my mind.
    Well, I have little hope for balance to be honest, but I will play the game nonetheless because I think the theme of the expansion and some other aspects are interesting enough to check out.
    After the dust of the expansion's launch has settled and we start seeing just how "damaging" the covenants (and other systems) are to the game then I guess I'll decide how seriously I'll take this Expansion.

  16. #156
    I'm just not a fan of the fact that they're designing it around the premise that I will 'main' an area of the game, M+, PvP or raiding. I can be 100% effective in one and maybe 75% in the other 2, but I enjoy all of them just as much? Help? As a disc priest, the choice for a covenant has been staggeringly difficult and not for the right reasons, I'm basically deciding which content I enjoy the least. I must have changed my mind dozens of times and I don't even have beta, nor access to WoW currently for that matter.

    They ask for feedback as to how they can balance it, but how can they? It's as if i'm being given a spoon to eat chips, soup and spaghetti; I can make-do with it but at what point would it ever be good enough for spaghetti whilst still being a spoon? It's fine for people that only like soup or only eat spaghetti once or twice a year, but what if you plan to eat all of them equally?

    Help.

    In the end, it probably won't matter that much, but i'm going to massively tilt if every priest in arena is playing one covenant and I feel like every match is a needless uphill battle because I decided to go with the one that helped me most in raiding or M+. I'm hoping it'll stay relatively balanced. Please let it be relatively balanced. I can live with them being mostly competitive with each other.
    Last edited by Zypherz; 2020-09-10 at 03:36 AM.

  17. #157
    Quote Originally Posted by WalterMcD View Post
    This is exactly my thoughts as well. I personally enjoy the idea of picking a covenant and sticking with it. It feeling meaningful. I don't care that I will be picking the #2(currently) covenant for my spec. Makes me no difference. I like the armor better
    My reaction to covenants was "all those mounts are shit except for <forgot the name>. I hope it's not the worst." TBH I'll.prob pick the one that sounds like it'll be ok at everything.

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    Quote Originally Posted by october breeze View Post
    When you have to write 10 paragraphs to explain what a game system to a bunch of nerds and gamers, then this is a shitty system!
    I agree. If people are just going to fly off the handle without actually reading a post then why do it? I mean you didn't read the post. Why are you so angry?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Solry View Post
    What is it to you pro-meaningful choice people if it gets unlocked?
    You're still gonna pick the one you like and stick with it EVEN IF IT IS NOT LOCKED, there you go you have your personal meaningful choice.
    How is letting OTHER people enjoy the game they want to enjoy it take away your own fun? You pick a covenant as your choice and you stick with it, because it is meaningful for you, good happy for you! Can you be happy for people that want to experiment or be good in the content they want to do with the help of unlocked covenants? Or is gloating over someone else's frustration somehow makes your choice more meaningful and fun for you?
    That is way more toxic if you ask me.
    Not as toxic as forcing everyone into a meaningless choice. If you can just switch anytime as many times as you please then you haven't made a choice. Might as well just scrap the whole thing at that point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bisque View Post
    So I take it "pull the ripcord" is now dead?
    No. It's got a good 6 weeks left in the term yet. People are already using it wrong. Don't worry something new will happen. I propose "drop the baby".

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    Quote Originally Posted by chrykoolaid View Post
    tldr: watcher tells us to stfu and get in line with the covenant choices.
    No. He said get in line or gtfo.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nizah View Post
    why so mad bro

  18. #158
    Quote Originally Posted by Nuciek View Post
    May I only remind you that the game was more alive and had more players when there were more "dead" and "bad" specs in the game?

    Balance is crucial, but it's not everything, just like WoW has proved to be the case for plenty of years. BFA was actually one of the best balanced expansions in the history and is also considered one of the worst expansions in history. Of course not because of balance, but as I said, balance sometimes has to take a hit for the gameplay to be better in general.
    That was a different time. When mmos were new and weren't an exercise in maximising potencial and an informed community.
    That is why i said the other way is to remove all that information. At that point, everyone can make the choice they want and consequences wont be clear.

    Err... i dunno dude. You think people being one shot in pvp by corruptions is "balanced"? I think this was the most unbalanced expansion in recent history. But, oh well... it's your opinion.

    I disagree btw. I think fun and balance aren't in opposition to each other. I think a balanced game is fun. I think the idea that something needs to be unbalanced to be fun is one sided. It won't be fun for the guy on the receiving end.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    It's really not their fault people can only see "good" and "bad" paladin based on their choice and strictly on performance alone.

    The problem is that a non insignificant portion of the player base, you included apparently, subscribe to this notion that ONLY the top performing build is viable at all, and anything other than that build is complete trash.

    This notion, in and of itself, is trash and needs to die a horrible death. Because it's completely false.
    You just can't resist making it personal.

    Sorry, dude, i'm not out there discriminating people for their choices, much to your dismay. It doesn't change the fact that it is how things are perceived and shock and awe i agree that is unhealthy, wich is why i'd like to see all this min maxing go away. The only way to do that is by breaking respective addons and the info given to players.

    Pretending it's not there, is not gonna work, as much as you want or as much as i want. Blame the community all you want, it's still gonna happen. This is reality. People behave this way. So, what are you sugesting? Pretending it isn't there and hoping people will change? Well... good luck with that.
    Last edited by Swnem; 2020-09-10 at 04:27 AM.

  19. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelk View Post
    we want your covenant choice to be meaningful but if you choose the most powerful one we're going to nerf it and also fuck you
    It's funny cause it's true
    If you knew the candle was fire then the meal was cooked a long time ago.

  20. #160
    Quote Originally Posted by Wulfey View Post
    For the covenants, it will be mathed out early on which Covenant is the best for your spec/class. You will pick that one.

    The real worry is when Blizz learn of this math and nerf the crap out of the mathematically superior one.

    Take Condemn/Venthyr for Warriors. This is a flat no brainer. Condemn is miles ahead of the other covenant abilities due its utility in all aspects of the game.

    What happens when they nerf it?
    ^Holy shit THIS!!^
    I have been watching beta streams since it came out (ofc i dont have beta) and if you are a raider, m+ player, you already have a clear idea which covenant you are going to choose (for dps obviously). It may give you a big relief you dont have to go through the fkn choosing other covenant thing BUT!! They will find out that most of the playerbase dont givea fk about lore/aesthetics and choosing the bis dps ones, they will feel "oh we fkd up, they really picked the bis ones, they were right do something guys they cant be right!" Aaaand there you go, starting to nerf the good ones (not buffing the shit ones obviously thats more work) so players starting to choose other covenants, the buff the old ones again to look like they doing some work and grinding back you old covenant for weeks, renown is fucked=conduits are gone, and you can tell this will be the case before 9.1 mythic raid comes out to shit on people even more Call me negative but after all these many years and the disappointing outcomes of every visionary system fails this wont be different.

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