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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Zenjie View Post
    Bloodwulf. It's okay if your opinion is not same as mine.
    And you said "if you want to see old content, get a group and walk into the dungeon/raid" That is exactly my point.
    Dungeon, you can still see the old content like Tol Dagor, Motherlode and whatever. They are still relevant because their loots are buffed. Thus, it is much easier to find groups to enter these dungeons
    But it was not applied to raids. Which is my wish. If they were kept relevant by giving excellent loots, valor points or anything. It doesn't have to be my suggestion exactly. But just keep it relevant.
    So, i'm asking you. Would it hurt you if old raids were still kept relevant, same as 5 man dungeons nowadays are? Current raid will still give better loots. You are free to ignore old raids. But players around did not farm all raids yet, meaning we will have more choices to have for having fun in the raid then "indirect forced" to only one raid which is current. I do not want easy content. LFR is nothing, it is garbage. I want beautiful raids that blizzard has created in BFA. I would like see them being more relevant through the expansion.

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    Yeah "defeat lots of bosses in order". One raid is huge. I would like to see LFR wing-system implemented to all old raid contents as well. So, you don't have to beat bosses in order to reach king rangstakhan for an example. Just enter the specific wing where king rangstakhan "lives".

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    I agree with you.
    The problem with old raids having the same level of loot as newer ones is that there will be cases, where the loot from the old raid is simply better than the new one. So you have a new boss who only drops trash. In a perfect world with perfect human beings the simple killing of said boss would be enough but we are not perfect and wow players are not intrinsical motivated to clear raids. Loot is a big part of that and the excitment that comes with it.

    In the Eternal Palace i was EXTREMLY unlucky with trinkets and never got the one i needed. But it was amazing and would still be better than anything in nyalotha if it had the same iLvL. But i was soooo sick of eternal palace after the months of raiding it and would still have to do it for the trinket...

    No Catchup would theoratically force you to do old raids BUT that was despised by every raidguild in BC. People hated it. They were forced to run old raids they did hundreds of times for new recruits to get the attunment. Also the time you have to invest into your alts would increase tenfold

  2. #42
    No, just no. Your idea is a "fix" that will only work for you and brake the game for everyone else. Those systems you have invented are terrible for plenty of reasons and you only look from your point of view, not thinking about everyone else that plays the game. Those systems would FORCE other players to play the way YOU want to play the game, not the way they want to play, which is really, really bad.

    And all that just so you can raid the way you like it once a month? That's why we have different difficulties - so everyone can enjoy content at their own level of dedication. If you raid rarely, just enough to clear content on normal YOU DON'T CARE ABOUT CLEARING THE RAID ON HEROIC. You think you do, you convince yourself and others that you want a challenge, but you don't. If you would like a challenge, and you would want to clear the raid on heroic, you would play the game and clear the raid on heroic. It's simple. if you're a casual player, that just wants to hop into the game, have some fun and see the content - it's fine, LFR and normal is there for you.

    There's one more issue that you haven't seen in your system and which would crush your dreams if it was reality. I'll write it down as an example.
    During Uldir you only managed to clear normal.
    Dazar'alor comes out, but you want to clear heroic Uldir first. So you focus on that. You manage to clear heroic Uldir.
    Eternal Palace comes out. But you haven't cleared Dazar'alor yet. You go do that. You clear normal Dazar'alor.
    Ny'alotha comes out, but you want to clear heroic Dazar'alor first. So you do that, you clear heroic Dazar'alor.

    Shadowlands comes out, you haven't seen Eternal Palace and Ny'alotha at all and they become obsolete old content.

    You see the problem here? It's you. If you don't play, you can't clear everything in the game, and you should be thankful that there are FOUR different difficulty levels so you can at least see all the content, quite opposite to Vanilla or TBC when raids were relevant for most of the expansion, and most of people never could see the newer raids.

  3. #43
    To infinity and beyond det's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zenjie View Post
    Many thanks for the reading. I hope to see this suggestion applied to Shadowlands.
    My gut feeling tells me that you are in for a big disappointment

  4. #44
    OK so what would make me step into raid 1 once I finish it if I can't use the rewards from it in the next raid? Because that's what it means to keep relevant. To keep going and going there for rewards.

    I mean you're thinking about players who haven't experienced it, but these players need other players who want to go back. And I don't see you solving this issue at all. I see no reason to go back to raid 1 if I'm in raid 4, unless I want some trinket to use in M+ (which is exactly the same with nowadays).

    Nevermind that I really don't want to do 4 raids in my 2 days of raiding, I just don't see how you solve the issue and how you make it relevant. The only way to make them truly relevant is:
    1. not get gear from other sources (cause you know, I get gear close to Mythic end raid from M+)
    2. have all gear be the exact same level or comparable - which you kinda touch on with proposed levels, but you limit it by making the gear unusable in other raids
    Last edited by Loveliest; 2020-09-16 at 11:11 AM.

  5. #45
    So basically after you finish the first tier you already have the max ilvl gear for the expansion outside of raids? and then by the end of the raid, killing the last boss... you are essentially naked for the next? You think that would go down well with players?

    Look. By the sounds of it you aren't suited to a game like WoW. WoW is constantly moving. The game you play 1 year ago is different to the game you play now. Expansions are full resets, patches are partial resets. Missed the last tier? too bad, so sad. The hour of everyone focusing on that raid is over.

    You can find PUGs to all old content for practically everything. if its an old xpac then go solo it.

    If you want people to pay monthly for a game that stagnates for 2 years before a full reset, then i would suggest going and making your own MMO because hell would freeze over before Blizzard actively fucked 99.5% of their playerbase off because 0.5% of players want to force the rest into content they don't want to redo for 2 years.

    While i do agree it would be nice for old content a reason to be done, i then remember that transmog, mounts, achievements and pets exist and is all i have personally been doing ingame for the past 4 weeks.

    Next you'll be suggesting they change the expansion cycle to 4 years because you need more time to do current stuff.

  6. #46
    Pandaren Monk bloodwulf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zenjie View Post
    Bloodwulf. It's okay if your opinion is not same as mine.
    And you said "if you want to see old content, get a group and walk into the dungeon/raid" That is exactly my point.
    Dungeon, you can still see the old content like Tol Dagor, Motherlode and whatever. They are still relevant because their loots are buffed. Thus, it is much easier to find groups to enter these dungeons
    But it was not applied to raids. Which is my wish. If they were kept relevant by giving excellent loots, valor points or anything. It doesn't have to be my suggestion exactly. But just keep it relevant.
    So, i'm asking you. Would it hurt you if old raids were still kept relevant, same as 5 man dungeons nowadays are? Current raid will still give better loots. You are free to ignore old raids. But players around did not farm all raids yet, meaning we will have more choices to have for having fun in the raid then "indirect forced" to only one raid which is current. I do not want easy content. LFR is nothing, it is garbage. I want beautiful raids that blizzard has created in BFA. I would like see them being more relevant through the expansion.

    - - - Updated - - -


    Yeah "defeat lots of bosses in order". One raid is huge. I would like to see LFR wing-system implemented to all old raid contents as well. So, you don't have to beat bosses in order to reach king rangstakhan for an example. Just enter the specific wing where king rangstakhan "lives".

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    I agree with you.
    This isn't difference of opinion. This is an armchair developer suggesting a system that would literally ruin the game for the majority of the players so it can appease a rare subset. If you keep the gear the same itemlevel between all raids, guilds will run all the raids as long as BIS gear exists in said raid. Just look at classic, there are guilds that are still clearing BWL when they are full clearing AQ40 because itemization is all over the place in Classic. My guilds classic guild can get all the older raids done in sub 1.5 hours but even then are facing attendance issues because of burnout of seeing the same content over and over.

    You want raiders to quit, tell them they have to raid the same raid they have been doing for 8+ months on top of the new raid. Raids need an expiration date, they should fall from relevance so people don't feel pressured to repeat them over and over. Your system would harm my guild (Cutting Edge) as well as casual guilds. There are also far more casual (one night a week) - hardcore (4+ night a week) raiders than there are fairweather raiders that show up once a month. If you buff the loot, you know damn well people will still feel obligated to run EP for trinkets all the way through Mythic Nya, and that is bad design because it encourages burn out.
    We live in an era of "me versus them", an era where something is done that you don't like means you are personally attacked. People whine too much.
    Let us play video games and be happy.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by bloodwulf View Post
    This isn't difference of opinion. This is an armchair developer suggesting a system that would literally ruin the game for the majority of the players so it can appease a rare subset. If you keep the gear the same itemlevel between all raids, guilds will run all the raids as long as BIS gear exists in said raid. Just look at classic, there are guilds that are still clearing BWL when they are full clearing AQ40 because itemization is all over the place in Classic. My guilds classic guild can get all the older raids done in sub 1.5 hours but even then are facing attendance issues because of burnout of seeing the same content over and over.

    You want raiders to quit, tell them they have to raid the same raid they have been doing for 8+ months on top of the new raid. Raids need an expiration date, they should fall from relevance so people don't feel pressured to repeat them over and over. Your system would harm my guild (Cutting Edge) as well as casual guilds. There are also far more casual (one night a week) - hardcore (4+ night a week) raiders than there are fairweather raiders that show up once a month. If you buff the loot, you know damn well people will still feel obligated to run EP for trinkets all the way through Mythic Nya, and that is bad design because it encourages burn out.
    What do you mean that I want raiders to quit? Dont misunderstand me. If raiders outfarmed content, they will not visit them again in future, because they have loots already from this raid. So, not sure what you mean with this that raiders have to visit again after they farmed them for 8months.

  8. #48
    Pandaren Monk bloodwulf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zenjie View Post
    What do you mean that I want raiders to quit? Dont misunderstand me. If raiders outfarmed content, they will not visit them again in future, because they have loots already from this raid. So, not sure what you mean with this that raiders have to visit again after they farmed them for 8months.
    Your system literally maintains that Raid A has same Itemlevel as Raid B, so if during the 8 months of relevancy, 2-3 people are still missing their BIS gear from Raid A, while Raid B does not offer ideal replacements, the responsible guilds are going to keep farming the old raid on top of the new raid, because ultimately you want the best gear for your raiders. By depreciating the old raids by having them fall behind in itemlevels, the people missing their gear from Raid A can at least look forward to gear with a significant item level increase in Raid B. My guild HATED refarming EP to get Mythic trinkets for certain classes, and your system would just encourage even more refarming.
    We live in an era of "me versus them", an era where something is done that you don't like means you are personally attacked. People whine too much.
    Let us play video games and be happy.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by bloodwulf View Post
    Your system literally maintains that Raid A has same Itemlevel as Raid B, so if during the 8 months of relevancy, 2-3 people are still missing their BIS gear from Raid A, while Raid B does not offer ideal replacements, the responsible guilds are going to keep farming the old raid on top of the new raid, because ultimately you want the best gear for your raiders. By depreciating the old raids by having them fall behind in itemlevels, the people missing their gear from Raid A can at least look forward to gear with a significant item level increase in Raid B. My guild HATED refarming EP to get Mythic trinkets for certain classes, and your system would just encourage even more refarming.
    Ah, i see. You misunderstand me. Gear from A will be worthless to raid B due artifical area debuff. So, raid A BIS stuff wont be ideal to use in raid B.
    So, no need to refarm, unless it is for transmog. Is it clear now to you? Does it satisfy you better?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Loveliest View Post
    OK so what would make me step into raid 1 once I finish it if I can't use the rewards from it in the next raid? Because that's what it means to keep relevant. To keep going and going there for rewards.

    I mean you're thinking about players who haven't experienced it, but these players need other players who want to go back. And I don't see you solving this issue at all. I see no reason to go back to raid 1 if I'm in raid 4, unless I want some trinket to use in M+ (which is exactly the same with nowadays).

    Nevermind that I really don't want to do 4 raids in my 2 days of raiding, I just don't see how you solve the issue and how you make it relevant. The only way to make them truly relevant is:
    1. not get gear from other sources (cause you know, I get gear close to Mythic end raid from M+)
    2. have all gear be the exact same level or comparable - which you kinda touch on with proposed levels, but you limit it by making the gear unusable in other raids
    I like the part of 2. Not a bad idea.
    But it might give them less reason to pursue the newer content after they done it once.

  10. #50
    Pandaren Monk bloodwulf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zenjie View Post
    Ah, i see. You misunderstand me. Gear from A will be worthless to raid B due artifical area debuff. So, raid A BIS stuff wont be ideal to use in raid B.
    So, no need to refarm, unless it is for transmog. Is it clear now to you? Does it satisfy you better?
    No because that goes to my previous complaint. You are essentially resetting our gear every new raid tier. The problem with that is, if you are full clearing Mythic on Raid A, you should be more than geared to clear Heroic on Raid B. That is even Blizzards stance. Now you are going to have raid teams that go from full clearing Mythic, to then hardstopping on heroic bosses because of DPS checks that require multiple weeks of farming. You should feel like you are getting progressively more powerful all through the expansion, not reset your powerlevel every 8 months.
    We live in an era of "me versus them", an era where something is done that you don't like means you are personally attacked. People whine too much.
    Let us play video games and be happy.

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by bloodwulf View Post
    No because that goes to my previous complaint. You are essentially resetting our gear every new raid tier. The problem with that is, if you are full clearing Mythic on Raid A, you should be more than geared to clear Heroic on Raid B. That is even Blizzards stance. Now you are going to have raid teams that go from full clearing Mythic, to then hardstopping on heroic bosses because of DPS checks that require multiple weeks of farming. You should feel like you are getting progressively more powerful all through the expansion, not reset your powerlevel every 8 months.
    Ah alright. I get it. I think that problem can be easily solved with my suggestion still standing. Debuff that scales to 410, can be changed to -ilvl 20 scale.
    Means, loots from raid A 460 ilvl will be ilvl 440 in raid B. Does that sound better for you. You make a good point. Reset is fine but it should not be too much that makes mythic raiders forced to do normal difficulty which they should not.

  12. #52
    Pandaren Monk bloodwulf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zenjie View Post
    Ah alright. I get it. I think that problem can be easily solved with my suggestion still standing. Debuff that scales to 410, can be changed to -ilvl 20 scale.
    Means, loots from raid A 460 ilvl will be ilvl 440 in raid B. Does that sound better for you. You make a good point. Reset is fine but it should not be too much that makes mythic raiders forced to do normal difficulty which they should not.
    Honestly, no. There should not be an artificial limiter in place. At no point should a new raid tier make me feel weaker. That is one of the big complaints about new expansions, when a new expack comes out, you feel like you get weaker as you level to the new cap. Trying to convince people that they should accept that same feeling every 8 months in an effort to support a realistically very small percentage of players who don't see stuff when its current in the difficulty they are qualified for is not acceptable or practical. That and if at any point you make the itemlevel difference too small from outdated content to new content, you will find people pressured by their guilds to run old content. When a new raid tier comes out, the old raid should depreciate and fall from relevance. Does it suck if someone who only shows up every 4 months miss out, for that one person sure, but its better than the alternatives offered here for all active raiders.

    I missed the first raid of BFA because of life issues, i came back and raided BOD on, and i feel like i took missing Ghuun and shit as an acceptable loss and forgot about it.
    We live in an era of "me versus them", an era where something is done that you don't like means you are personally attacked. People whine too much.
    Let us play video games and be happy.

  13. #53
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    Sympathize and agree with your statement of the problem OP. Very much dislike your proposed solution however, it just makes no sense.
    You know what would be a much better solution (in my eyes)? Have the game work like it did in TBC (minus the Sunwell patch, which was the beginning of the end).
    No catchup gear. New raids give better rewards than the older ones, but you need to gear up in the older raids to be ready for them. You know, the traditional MMO design.
    Of course all that is hardly possible now with 4 difficulties and the target audience that only cares about the rewards and not the gameplay, and wants to fast forward skip to the very end and then complain that there is nothing to do.

  14. #54
    This really sounds like you want the game redesigned to perfectly suit you, which is an exceedingly arrogant thing to want. If you choose to take a break for 3-4 months, thats on you, and its not up to Blizzard to ignore all their dedicated players who play right through those 3-4 months, just to benefit you.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Fandis View Post
    Sympathize and agree with your statement of the problem OP. Very much dislike your proposed solution however, it just makes no sense.
    You know what would be a much better solution (in my eyes)? Have the game work like it did in TBC (minus the Sunwell patch, which was the beginning of the end).
    No catchup gear. New raids give better rewards than the older ones, but you need to gear up in the older raids to be ready for them. You know, the traditional MMO design.
    Of course all that is hardly possible now with 4 difficulties and the target audience that only cares about the rewards and not the gameplay, and wants to fast forward skip to the very end and then complain that there is nothing to do.
    Thank you sir.
    Yeah. I think the rotations of making old raids available with right rewards as the motivation would work. Like a raid weekly quests. Scaling raids a bit, so the difficulty stays tight. And eventually add wings system as well, so you dont have to do full raid to reach king rangstakhan for an example.

    That would bring the casual raiders more things to enjoy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bloodwulf View Post

    I missed the first raid of BFA because of life issues, i came back and raided BOD on, and i feel like i took missing Ghuun and shit as an acceptable loss and forgot about it.
    Still stubborn as ever?
    What if there was weekly raid quest for slaying Ghuun. Just once in the week. Why not? One of the few things more to enjoy the raiding besides the current raid which you completed one of the first day of the week. Due weekly lockout, you got left to wait for the next reset.
    That weekly raid quests or other feature to make old raids relevant would person like me to have more things to do as “raiding”.

  16. #56
    The Lightbringer
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zenjie View Post

    Still stubborn as ever?
    What if there was weekly raid quest for slaying Ghuun. Just once in the week. Why not? One of the few things more to enjoy the raiding besides the current raid which you completed one of the first day of the week. Due weekly lockout, you got left to wait for the next reset.
    That weekly raid quests or other feature to make old raids relevant would person like me to have more things to do as “raiding”.
    you calling someone stubborn when you make thread after thread of similar ideas which are all so terrible they would ruin the game is hilarious

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Quite frankly, your idea sounds like a Blizzard solution.

    Rather than fixing the issue (which is the massive gear inflation caused by multiple difficulties + "Play the patch" Mentality), you propose a convoluted system that sort of achieves the same effect while also causing some unintended side effects.
    The fact that you threw in a "rotation" for content makes the analogy even more fitting.

    Your solution has the massive issue that you confuse the shit out of players where they're actually supposed to progress their character, because everything is somehow the same(because it gets scaled) but also isn't.
    Also, those "Resistances" make you keep items from every raid because they're better than a regular piece, one of the very bad things about Azerite and Corruption were that your bags were full items you kept "just in case".

    Not to mention it also leaves out how PvP items and M+ fit into this, are they excluded? Do raids always drop the same Ilvl? Do you only "feel" your progress in raids?

    Honestly, if you want linear progression, ask for linear progression, less Ilvl jumps between tiers, less catchup mechanics that get updated each patch, those are the points you need to tackle.
    Solve issues, not invent new systems.

    Also, in my opinion linear progression (at least how it existed in the earlier days of WoW) will most likely not return to the game in the foreseeable future, but that's another story.
    Everytime I see someone blame difficulties for inflated gear I just shake myhead. Go on. Use a piece of paper and work out what the ilvl would be in 8.3 if we removed Mythic raiding. Hint. 460+.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nizah View Post
    why so mad bro

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by munkeyinorbit View Post
    Everytime I see someone blame difficulties for inflated gear I just shake myhead. Go on. Use a piece of paper and work out what the ilvl would be in 8.3 if we removed Mythic raiding. Hint. 460+.
    I'm not sure where you get this from my post, because i didn't even mention the issue of multiple difficulties, i said:

    Honestly, if you want linear progression, ask for linear progression, less Ilvl jumps between tiers, less catchup mechanics that get updated each patch, those are the points you need to tackle.
    Nothing about multiple difficulties in there.

    However, in regards to that:
    the issue of multiple difficulties is how they interact with Blizzards "Play the patch" mentality, they don't want that Heroic raiders can go back to the previous tier's Mythic difficulty and get there gear as well, or Normal Raiders doing heroic difficulty of the previous one.

    Not to mention how this interacts with the weekly chest, if you acquire Mythic Ilvl pieces on quite a few slots thanks to that chest, nothing within the next tier but Mythic itself can yield actual upgrades on these slots, because even heroic merely equivalent loot to Mythic from the previous tier.

    They are not per se the reason why we have those massive Ilvl jumps between tiers, but do make it necessary because Blizzard doesn't want anything but the current raid tier be relevant for people to gear up, hence they need to slap +30 Ilvl onto everything moving into the next tier.
    Last edited by Kralljin; Yesterday at 11:57 AM.

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