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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Beefkow View Post
    Glad RTB is gone and replaced with SnD.
    outlaw still got roll the bones, but its a CD, still just as random how strong a buff you get, it doesnt cost CPs and you cant reroll untill its of CD again.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by mojusk View Post
    outlaw still got roll the bones, but its a CD, still just as random how strong a buff you get, it doesnt cost CPs and you cant reroll untill its of CD again.
    Oh, my bad.

    That's actually a good change, still RNG though :/

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Varolyn View Post
    Curious how you think it makes assassinations rotation more engaging. To me, it just feels like a button you press to attack faster, and thus deal more damage, that's all. If they wanted to un-prune, they should have brought back something like gouge so at least some decision making could be made in M+/pvp since gouge is a costly ability in terms of resources.

    SnD is acceptable to return for outlaw and especially sub, and i've been playing around a lot on the ptr, but I just don't feel it for assassination. At most it will increase the skill floor slightly but do nothing to increase assassin's ceiling.
    Simply because maintaining Rupture and Garrote takes no effort. I welcome one more maintenance buff for the increased difficulty. I never minded having multiple things to keep track of at once; I see it as a higher skill cap. When you perform it all correctly, your DPS increases. When you let something drop due to improper planning, your DPS suffers. For me, it's that simple.

  4. #44
    It's a good addition to the class, rogue was slowly becoming a DH, glad they now have to actually keep track of something in addition to 1 bleed.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Very rare pepe View Post
    It's a good addition to the class, rogue was slowly becoming a DH, glad they now have to actually keep track of something in addition to 1 bleed.
    If you were playing assassin and just watching to refresh 1 bleed you were playing the spec wrong. It actually had a pretty decent gameplay of pooling/bursting within envenom buff duration.

    Sure the spec could use more to increase its skill ceiling but slice n dice is not it.
    Comes a time when we all gotta die...even kings.

  6. #46
    I swear, Rogues just want to spam Sinister Strike for maximum DPS and call it a day.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Neuroticaine View Post
    I swear, Rogues just want to spam Sinister Strike for maximum DPS and call it a day.
    or maybe they want more engaging gameplay than refreshing passive damage increases.

    Slice n dice. Symbols of death. These are not interesting gameplay interactions.
    Comes a time when we all gotta die...even kings.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Volatilis View Post
    or maybe they want more engaging gameplay than refreshing passive damage increases.

    Slice n dice. Symbols of death. These are not interesting gameplay interactions.
    You don't like having a guaranteed crit + 40 Energy -> more combo points -> more Eviscerates in a little mini cooldown that works very, very well with Shadow Dance? Besides, as subtlety, you can grab Premeditation and be able to practically ignore Slice and Dice.

    That's one of the more interesting interactions that the Rogue class has ever had. You just want like a few different flavors of Eviscerate, don't you?

  9. #49
    if they keep Premeditation as it is right now, sub will not even notice SnD coming back.
    you get the 10 seconds of SnD regardless of whether you have it active or not, and it stacks beyond the 6CP duration.
    The above mentioned remarks, ideas and notions are simply my thought on this topic. I do not wish to aggravate, denounce or criticize anyone who, for whatever reason, may disagree.

  10. #50
    in the past, when there were some devs and some budget, interested and invested in wow, devs thought well about a few things and take away SnD for a very good reason (same reason they did away same spell on ret paladin).

    today there is no budget and just some stupid and lazy devs. task: „make classes more attractive again, bc ppl liked classes in past more.“ their lazy solution: „just bring back some old abilities, that still lying around on the git repository.“ done.

    in short: cheap shit lazy solution. will do no good.

  11. #51
    Brewmaster MrTophat's Avatar
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    I'm not some hyper competitive player but... Slice and Dice just isn't a fun ability in general and it's particularly unpleasant for Assassination imo. It has no interesting animation and does no immediate damage which is 'meh' for Outlaw and Sub, but it's worse for Assassa. At least Sub has synergy with SnD, for assassin it's just a wonky button that feels bad to press and just provides a passive and uninteresting damage increase. Personally I like the changes for Outlaw, I prefer SnD to roll the old bones by a landslide and SnD for sub seems like it could be okay. For Assassination? It just feels wonky, does not fit the kit very well and just isn't fun.

  12. #52
    While i agree, that SnD is an iconic rogue ability, it doesn't make sense returning it to assa. Sub and outlaw at least have a synergy with it, all it does for assa is increasing attack speed, slowing down our rotation even more (as if assa wasn't enough energy starved at the start of every expansion) and shifts a lot of our dmg into passive sources.

    As it stands right now on beta, 40-45% of assa dmg is passive. Auto-attacks are the most damaging from all dmg sources - 25% and deadly poison is 17% (dot+application).
    I don't call that engaging. SnD was on auto-refresh for so long, then it was baked in and eventually removed for a reason.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Delano View Post
    It's an old and flavorful ability that interacts with Outlaw and Sub fine. It doesn't quite fit in Assassination but that could be fixed.
    Exactly. Assassination has enough going on, so SnD would be more of a nuisance and less something that could spice things up. Seems fine for Outlaw and Sub. Just my opinion ofc.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Volatilis View Post
    or maybe they want more engaging gameplay than refreshing passive damage increases.

    Slice n dice. Symbols of death. These are not interesting gameplay interactions.
    Slice and Dice is way more interesting than Symbols of Death.

    Symbols of Death should be macro'd to Dance and it's wrong to ever use it aside from Dancing. It doesn't warrant being a separate button press.

    However before pressing SnD you have to plan ahead what your uptime will be on the target and set the duration accordingly -- If I put up a 5pt SnD and immediately get Feared, I have made a mistake because I didn't properly understand the tactical situation.

    They are doing their best to make SnD braindead though. Passive Premeditation is utterly stupid -- particularly so in relation to SoD being a separate button for no reason at all. Blizzard ALWAYS tries to satisfy the wording of the request but not the spirit of the request. You see that in how they eliminated Dance charges but left CDR in tact, you see it in how they brought back SnD but not Energetic Recovery, you see it in how they brought back Rupture but not Sanguinary Veins, you see it in how they brought back Premed but as a brainless passive.

    They either don't understand our feedback and don't understand what we liked about old Subtlety design, or they do understand it but they think they are smarter than us and can come up with something even better than what we asked for (spoiler: they didn't).

    Let's face it, the devs have not invested much effort into Subtlety base class design for this expansion. There is more effort going into stupid borrowed power that won't be with us long term regardless. Whatever Engineering Manager is responsible for the team should be fired for allowing such waste of developer effort -- 90% of what they worked on is down the drain in the next expansion and while we are moving in the right direction it will be 2 more expansions at this rate before Subtlety is fully recovered from the Legion fiasco.
    Last edited by shoegazing; 2020-09-12 at 02:29 PM.
    Subtlety Rogue was an amazing, incredible, unique, and fun spec prior to Legion and BfA

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  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by shoegazing View Post
    However before pressing SnD you have to plan ahead what your uptime will be on the target and set the duration accordingly -- If I put up a 5pt SnD and immediately get Feared, I have made a mistake because I didn't properly understand the tactical situation.
    Just make SnD a pvp talent then. Because it adds no value to modern PVE where you generate a million CPs every minute.

  16. #56
    Can't believe I can no longer overwrite that horribly unimmersive rolling dice ability with Slice & Dice. This move has just ruined rogues for me. I don't want no giant rolling dice around me every 30 seconds. It's ridiculous.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by shoegazing View Post
    Slice and Dice is way more interesting than Symbols of Death.

    Symbols of Death should be macro'd to Dance and it's wrong to ever use it aside from Dancing. It doesn't warrant being a separate button press.

    However before pressing SnD you have to plan ahead what your uptime will be on the target and set the duration accordingly -- If I put up a 5pt SnD and immediately get Feared, I have made a mistake because I didn't properly understand the tactical situation.

    They are doing their best to make SnD braindead though. Passive Premeditation is utterly stupid -- particularly so in relation to SoD being a separate button for no reason at all. Blizzard ALWAYS tries to satisfy the wording of the request but not the spirit of the request. You see that in how they eliminated Dance charges but left CDR in tact, you see it in how they brought back SnD but not Energetic Recovery, you see it in how they brought back Rupture but not Sanguinary Veins, you see it in how they brought back Premed but as a brainless passive.

    They either don't understand our feedback and don't understand what we liked about old Subtlety design, or they do understand it but they think they are smarter than us and can come up with something even better than what we asked for (spoiler: they didn't).

    Let's face it, the devs have not invested much effort into Subtlety base class design for this expansion. There is more effort going into stupid borrowed power that won't be with us long term regardless. Whatever Engineering Manager is responsible for the team should be fired for allowing such waste of developer effort -- 90% of what they worked on is down the drain in the next expansion and while we are moving in the right direction it will be 2 more expansions at this rate before Subtlety is fully recovered from the Legion fiasco.
    I dont necessarily disagree but I feel you oversell the decision making on slice n dice by at least a small margin, for example

    You say the length of the spell cast aka the amount of combo points spent is a decision on the fly and requires reactive thinking. But really if you know a fear is coming and your trinket is down its a waste to cast a 5 combo point slice n dice because you might get hit by the full duration of the fear and you do in fact end up wasting those 5 combo points, the same can be said of casting the spell with 1-2 combo points because your CC break/immune was down and you assumed you could try optimize to full damage potential without those back ups anyway which is a part of the skill of knowing when you can go ham, and when you need to hold back because you know they are about to use their spells. Normally with an Add on telling you their cooldowns and diminishing return values.

    So forgive me if I dont think slice n dice is at the height of that kind of decision making, and they in fact could do better. I dont hate slice n dice and ill be able to get back into it without a sweat. But I'd rather see armor penetration from stealth back if we're gonna bring back a "boring passive" than slice n dice, at least that rewards utilizing stealth gameplay. Something lacking from rogue gameplay
    Last edited by Volatilis; 2020-09-13 at 08:07 AM.
    Comes a time when we all gotta die...even kings.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by glowpipe View Post
    I have played rogue since day 1 of vanilla. I have tried to swap before, but never been able, since its my main and all. Everything ive done in wow ive done on that char. But slice and dice back feels like it will help tremendously in that regards. Its so unrewarding skill. get 5 CP you could have used to refresh your bleed or have a hard hit. But not, you need to waste it on a passive you barely notice, but you can't skip it, since the dps meters notice a great deal.

    Also just mess up the rotation for the worse. Now you need to keep one more thing in mind when refreshing dots and use cooldowns. And that new thing is nothing but another WA icon
    It used to speed up the rotation great time and having it on actually felt like an improvement. So I dissagree.

    Sure every one want damage or heal ASAP, .. makes it boring. Its a good change.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Alanar View Post
    It used to speed up the rotation great time and having it on actually felt like an improvement. So I dissagree.

    Sure every one want damage or heal ASAP, .. makes it boring. Its a good change.
    It used to speed it up, then it was made a passive, you didn't lose anything. Now they removed the passive and made the class worse without hitting the button. And back to how it used to be by hitting the button. We didn't get shit back, except a extra button to press to keep having the passive we always had. So dissagree all you want. This is a 100% shit change

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Demeia View Post
    A lot of our old theorycrafters--I think most now gone for a while--complained bitterly about how passive our damage was between poisons and white damage (slice and dice).

    I really think bringing it back is a pretty negative change.

    I think Coldkill's idea would have been a better way to bring it back.

    I was also not a fan of a maintenance buff since I don't see why those can't also have a damage component (like Rupture giving energy).
    Bear in mind that in the old times the game was different. Our role was to purely deal damage, and stats were completely different. We had ways and reasons to achieve hitcap (both soft and hard) and expertise when it was introduced. The complaint about us being "autoattack bots" is very old and it was there in TBC already, with it becoming stronger the more time passed.

    Anyway, mechanically wise, SnD as it is just makes you either strive for 100% uptime in PvE or makes a slightly more compelling choice in PvP to apply more pressure - but it's still a lower priority compared to control.

    Limited duration/more burst is what makes abilities interesting and actually more than just "press X on CD". Every combat changes, so proper use of these small bursts is what makes a rogue a good one.
    No one wants to choose. Everyone wants everything.

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