Slice and Dice back seems like 3 steps backward

[Agnu]

I don't mind SnD at all idk why yall are bugging over it personally.

[Kaver]

I don't mind SnD at all idk why yall are bugging over it personally.

My only real issue with SnD is for Assassination. Especially in AOE. We already have to maintain 3 bleeds on targets in AOE and on top of that we now got SnD. So the whole AOE rotation is right now based on maintaining buffs. Some people might like that. But I like some breathing room also where you can push out some direct damage.

For Outlaw and Sub SnD is not horrible. But I don’t think it’s good either. I know some people hope that it’s the beginning of a move towards a more old school Rogue design but I really doubt it. Currently we just have a weird mash between new school and old school.

[intenz]

Honest question here, since I haven't really looked into Combat ever since I fell out of love with the spec when it became a RNG lottery:

How exactly does RtB change the rotation so much? You either get more CP, extra SS strikes, extra energy, extra crit or that redundant buff that works like Restless Blades. I fail to see how any of those are rotation changers.

It doesn't. It only affects whether or not you reroll rtb. Having your performance subjected to RNG is a pretty cancerous playstyle it's understandable why so many rogues hate how combat was ruined.

- - - Updated - - -

My only real issue with SnD is for Assassination. Especially in AOE. We already have to maintain 3 bleeds on targets in AOE and on top of that we now got SnD. So the whole AOE rotation is right now based on maintaining buffs. Some people might like that. But I like some breathing room also where you can push out some direct damage.

For Outlaw and Sub SnD is not horrible. But I don’t think it’s good either. I know some people hope that it’s the beginning of a move towards a more old school Rogue design but I really doubt it. Currently we just have a weird mash between new school and old school.

Assassination was always a "maintaining buffs" spec in aoe. The larger issue is that most specs in the game have been streamlined into a more arcade-y playstyle which lends itself to fast burst AoE damage useful in M+. Assassination is stuck in the past, while there is nothing technically wrong with how assassination is designed, it's just outdated.

[iosdeveloper]

its great, now remove Outlaw please
seriously, i can't stand retail version of Rogue, its fun, cool, looks cool, sounds great, but somehow boring =(

[Kaver]

Assassination was always a "maintaining buffs" spec in aoe.

Yes, but there was always "breathing room". That's my point. Right now you are refreshing buffs constantly in AOE. You never have time to do anything else.

[Aleksej89]

What i would love is a "on nearby kill refresh S&D to max duration" talent or effect for all 3 specs.

It would make questing, dungeons and solo content a lot more fluid if we did not have to cast it at the start of every fight.

Or perhaps a "casting S&D while out of combat costs no combat points" so we can at least start a fight with some S&D active.

[inafume]

What i would love is a "on nearby kill refresh S&D to max duration" talent or effect for all 3 specs.

It would make questing, dungeons and solo content a lot more fluid if we did not have to cast it at the start of every fight.

Or perhaps a "casting S&D while out of combat costs no combat points" so we can at least start a fight with some S&D active.

For Outlaw at least, using a finisher with the Grand Melee RtB buff up increases the duration for SnD (and will even activate it if it wasn't already on). It makes having to worry about juggling it a little less important at times.

[Celfydd]

There is Premeditation for subtlety which does exactly what you seem to want.

[shoegazing]

There is Premeditation for subtlety which does exactly what you seem to want.

/vomit

It's a horrible mockery of the old Premeditation talent

We no longer have any flexibility on how to use those combo points. We are railroaded into doing only a single thing with them. Blizzard has decided that one single Subtlety opener is correct in all scenarios and they won't even give us the choice to be wrong. Does a mob have a small enough HP that you think you can kill it with Premed --> Ambush --> Evis --> MfD --> Evis? Too bad, you don't have that option because it's more important that some drooling battle pet collector that doesn't even raid LFR can open with Premed --> SnD every time without having to actually press either button. And now you are forced to play the same way in all scenarios.

I hate these noob-obsessed "but can grandma grokk it???" class designers. At every opportunity they sacrifice the knowledge and experience of Rogue players at the altar of making everything dead-simple for noobs.

Never forget that before they pivoted to the "class fantasy lol" excuse, the original reason they gave for pruning was that they needed to make classes easier for a new player purchasing a boost to try the game out with their friends, and they're willing to ruin classes that we loved for 16 years in order to achieve that.

[Celfydd]

I hate

Maybe you should play a game that you like then. All this hatred and bile about other people's playstyles and things you can't change is certainly not going to be good for your mental health. It's certainly very tedious for us to have to listen to it and not constructive in any way.

[Kaver]

Maybe you should play a game that you like then. All this hatred and bile about other people's playstyles and things you can't change is certainly not going to be good for your mental health. It's certainly very tedious for us to have to listen to it and not constructive in any way.

But mate the funny thing is that Shoegazing hasn’t been playing the game for the last 5 years. He hasn’t been playing since WoD. He just spent all his freetime commenting on a game that has no relevance for him. Why you ask? I have absolutely no idea. And all his knowledge about the game is completely outdated. It’s absurd.

[shoegazing]

But mate the funny thing is that Shoegazing hasn’t been playing the game for the last 5 years. He hasn’t been playing since WoD. He just spent all his freetime commenting on a game that has no relevance for him. Why you ask? I have absolutely no idea. And all his knowledge about the game is completely outdated. It’s absurd.

The reason for these dumb ad hominems if that you're not capable of addressing the criticism I raised.

Also I played Legion extensively (wish I hadn't though). I leveled and geared 3 Rogues on each faction and also spriest warlock and moonkin on each faction, queued lots of arenas.

I also beta tested bfa and beta tested shadowlands.

So not only does your dumb ad hominem fail to address the criticism I raised about Premeditation, it's also not even factually accurate.

Maybe one day you will stop being a coward and engage in real debate.

[Kaver]

engage in real debate.

You want me to have a debate with you on a topic you know nothing about? That sounds constructive. It would be like discussing Robot Technology with a person from the 18th century. You're outdated mate.

Start playing the game and we can talk.

[shoegazing]

You want me to have a debate with you on a topic you know nothing about? That sounds constructive. It would be like discussing Robot Technology with a person from the 18th century. You're outdated mate.

Start playing the game and we can talk.

"Bawk bawk bawk" goes the Chicken

My criticism of Premeditation stands above and you've said absolutely nothing to refute it. This is a one dimensional ability that eliminates the opener flexibility and player choice that old Premed offered... It forces everyone to use the same basic dumbed down opener for all situations instead of choosing based on the situation when and how you will use the extra CP

Go ahead and distract from the issues some more like you always do to avoid debating.... coward

[mitre27]

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Assassination was always a "maintaining buffs" spec in aoe. The larger issue is that most specs in the game have been streamlined into a more arcade-y playstyle which lends itself to fast burst AoE damage useful in M+. Assassination is stuck in the past, while there is nothing technically wrong with how assassination is designed, it's just outdated.

It is and always has been a bad design, our AOE is terrible despite being so hectic and difficult to manage compared to other specs, heck even our own class specs have far better time aoeing, outlaw has to hit 1 button ontop of their single target rotation to leave sin in the dust.

Make crimson tempest baseline would be a nice start to making us not suck.

[shoegazing]

Yup, as predicted -- my loudest critic is once again, all bark and no bite. Why even come to this forum if you're willing to discuss everything except the Rogue class?

It's obvious who the devs intend the target audience for the new Premeditation talent to be: bad players who are willing to give up a lot of opener flexibility and gameplay choice in order to press fewer buttons. That's the only group that benefits from the difference between new Premed and old Premed.

Never forget what Ghostcrawler said when he left the WoW team to join Riot: "It's nice to design games without being pressured to think about whether somebody's grandma can grasp it"

Or for that matter the polite/professional but rather pointed shots Chris Kaleiki took at his now former colleagues on the WoW design team on the way out the door

Or the open criticism bordering on ridicule that the original Rogue class designer Kevin Jordan has leveled against the current group of class designers

Or that now lead combat designer Brian Holinka once said about pruning the Rogue class: "Yes! finally I can play that Rogue fantasy without having great manual dexterity myself"

Or that the current lead class designer Adam Kugler got promoted to that role from working solely on visual effects and animations, and that -- not gameplay -- is the focus he brings to the class design team.

The current group designing the game cares much more about a mount/pet collector amusement park tourist who coincidentally happens to choose the Rogue class at character creation screen, than they do about anybody who is actually passionate about Rogue gameplay. And it shows heavily in the work they've done.

[Kaver]

Yup, as predicted -- my loudest critic is once again, all bark and no bite. Why even come to this forum if you're willing to discuss everything except the Rogue class?

It's obvious who the devs intend the target audience for the new Premeditation talent to be: bad players who are willing to give up a lot of opener flexibility and gameplay choice in order to press fewer buttons. That's the only group that benefits from the difference between new Premed and old Premed.

Never forget what Ghostcrawler said when he left the WoW team to join Riot: "It's nice to design games without being pressured to think about whether somebody's grandma can grasp it"

Or for that matter the polite/professional but rather pointed shots Chris Kaleiki took at his now former colleagues on the WoW design team on the way out the door

Or the open criticism bordering on ridicule that the original Rogue class designer Kevin Jordan has leveled against the current group of class designers

Or that now lead combat designer Brian Holinka once said about pruning the Rogue class: "Yes! finally I can play that Rogue fantasy without having great manual dexterity myself"

Or that the current lead class designer Adam Kugler got promoted to that role from working solely on visual effects and animations, and that -- not gameplay -- is the focus he brings to the class design team.

The current group designing the game cares much more about a mount/pet collector amusement park tourist who coincidentally happens to choose the Rogue class at character creation screen, than they do about anybody who is actually passionate about Rogue gameplay. And it shows heavily in the work they've done.

Your input isn't valid since you haven't played the game for the last 5 years and you lack a very basic understanding of how the game works now.

I'm not a fan of the new premed either but you still think combo points work like they did in vanilla. So every input you have on how to fix the class is simply outdated. You're outdated mate. There's a reason why Tech companies don't recruit employees from a retirement home.

[shoegazing]

Your input isn't valid since you haven't played the game for the last 5 years and you lack a very basic understanding of how the game works now.

I'm not a fan of the new premed either but you still think combo points work like they did in vanilla. So every input you have on how to fix the class is simply outdated. You're outdated mate. There's a reason why Tech companies don't recruit employees from a retirement home.

"I disagree with you about new Premed without actually disagreeing with you about new Premed"

valuable input

Quoting yet again what you have still failed to address:

It's a horrible mockery of the old Premeditation talent

We no longer have any flexibility on how to use those combo points. We are railroaded into doing only a single thing with them. Blizzard has decided that one single Subtlety opener is correct in all scenarios and they won't even give us the choice to be wrong. Does a mob have a small enough HP that you think you can kill it with Premed --> Ambush --> Evis --> MfD --> Evis? Too bad, you don't have that option because it's more important that some drooling battle pet collector that doesn't even raid LFR can open with Premed --> SnD every time without having to actually press either button. And now you are forced to play the same way in all scenarios.

Never forget that before they pivoted to the "class fantasy lol" excuse, the original reason they gave for pruning was that they needed to make classes easier for a new player purchasing a boost to try the game out with their friends, and they're willing to ruin classes that we loved for 16 years in order to achieve that.

This is a one dimensional ability that eliminates the opener flexibility and player choice that old Premed offered... It forces everyone to use the same basic dumbed down opener for all situations instead of choosing based on the situation when and how you will use the extra CP

It's simple, Kaver. Either state that you agree, state that you disagree and provide reasons why, or put your tail between your legs and walk away. No more waffling.

[mitre27]

Can we all agree assassination needs better damage tools, right now all we can do is sustained single target dps at a mediocre rate while our cleave and aoe falls behind, it takes so long to build up to our full damage that everything dies in mythic+

I fucking despise outlaw and sub so sin being this shit makes me sad.

[shoegazing]

Can we all agree assassination needs better damage tools, right now all we can do is sustained single target dps at a mediocre rate while our cleave and aoe falls behind, it takes so long to build up to our full damage that everything dies in mythic+

I fucking despise outlaw and sub so sin being this shit makes me sad.

Ah yes, more cleave and aoe for the tactical single target class

While we're at it lets also give a huge amount of CCs to enhancement shamans and fury warriors, big healing spells for mages, and oh yeah DKs could really use a sprint or burst of speed ability