Please remember all the times Blizzard were wrong - Launching WoW in Beta.

[WowIsDead64]

I'm tired of still playing beta when Blizzard releases their new expansions. Blizzard keeps launching systems in a horrible state and then end up having spend a lot of time in order to "fix" it.

Please remember how bad these systems were when they launched and how wrong Blizzard were from the get go.

- Garrisons
- Legion Legendaries
- Artifacts
- Azerite gear
- Essences
- Corruption gear

Please think about how awful these systems were when they were launched. And how much time Blizzard had to use during the expansions to fix them. It amaze me how people can still have this blind trust in Blizzard that they will get things right. How can you trust that Blizzard will be able to fix things with balancing after you have experienced the corruption gear.

Blizzard have often been wrong. Blizzard don't deserve your blind trust.

That's, how this game has been working for ages. That's because Blizzard try to squeeze maximum profit out from such systems before actually nerfing them. And, I guess, this is by design, because they don't learn any lessons.

Examples:
1) WotLK class balance, godlike Paladins and DKs, crappy Shamans, etc. Problem isn't fixed in time.
2) Cata 4.0 heroics were obviously overtuned. Problem isn't fixed in time.
3) All rewards gated behind rep grinds in MOP, while reps are only available from mandatory dailies. Problem isn't fixed in time.
4) WOD flying removal nonsense. Problem isn't fixed in time.
5) Legion grind/RNG/time-gating crap. Problem isn't fixed in time.
6) BFA azerite/essences/cloak/corruptions. Problem isn't fixed in time.

P.S. Garrisons are ok.

[MrLachyG]

- Garrisons were fine
- Legendaries were fine, just obtaining them was annoying for the first patch
- Artifacts were fine
- Azerite gear was annoying until 8.1
- Essences were fine
- Corruption is the only example that's actually a bad system


Of course, the most obvious difference is blizzard are actively listening and changing stuff on the beta more than any other expansion - look at the pvp changes most recently as an example. It's clear they want to get this right, in the case of covenants - clearly they have the data and it obvious tells them most people are happy with how things are. Just because preach, asmongold and bellular make malding videos about covenants every other day doesn't mean they're right about them

this. this upcoming expansion Blizzard have listened and responded to feedback more than ever before. Just because a minority don't like a feature doesn't make it bad

[exochaft]

- Garrisons were fine
- Legendaries were fine, just obtaining them was annoying for the first patch
- Artifacts were fine
- Azerite gear was annoying until 8.1
- Essences were fine
- Corruption is the only example that's actually a bad system


Of course, the most obvious difference is blizzard are actively listening and changing stuff on the beta more than any other expansion - look at the pvp changes most recently as an example. It's clear they want to get this right, in the case of covenants - clearly they have the data and it obvious tells them most people are happy with how things are. Just because preach, asmongold and bellular make malding videos about covenants every other day doesn't mean they're right about them

I think Garrisons and some of the BfA content, although fine in some cases, didn't get adjustment/refinements because Blizz considered them failed after a certain point and put almost all their resources into the next expansion. With skeleton crews, there's only so much you can do so quickly. Basically, it's like D3 being in maintenance mode for WoD and BfA after a certain point.

As you said, the BIG thing right now is that Blizz is interacting with the community and responding to feedback with the current beta. One the large issues I had with the BfA beta and PTR was that there was very little communication (at least visibly) with the large body of testers. Maybe some of the people in Method or popular streamers had surveys and/or direct contact with Blizz to provide feedback, but for everyone else it was pretty limited. Even the 8.3 PTR was bad, to the point where my account got suspended for activity I had constantly posted to Blizz concerning bugs that were present every build for over a month... fortunately the suspension got reversed, but it was clear that feedback was either not getting read, not taken seriously, or made it's way directly to the circular filing cabinet. Even now, there are TONS of bugs even just in the Ny'alotha raid that are still present and encounter-breaking (last lockout had people not have bodies to click to get out of psychus phase, Paranoia links between different phases, and not have access to their necks for mythic N'zoth reclearing). Beyond that, there are still annoying bugs and crashes that have been around since the start of BfA that will never get fixed.

However, this Shadowlands beta has much more dialogue going back and forth, which is a good thing. Not all sunshine and rainbows to be certain, as I still believe Blizz is going to release Shadowlands way too early considering the state of beta right now. Pretty sure there was an executive decision from on high that forced this late October release, and I won't be surprised if there's consequences to that in the form of bugs, imbalances, and broken systems. However, most of the issues that I foresee will not be due to Blizz not listening to feedback, it'll be due to the expansion being released earlier than it likely should be.

[cface]

If you have any faith or trust in Blizzard now, you must be one of those brainwashed woke tards. They have a massive history of fails starting from saying no to dota2 and then they make that garbage called HotS into OW and failed really hard at WC3 remastered. Put all the fail systems put into wow I guess the next expansion will be memed ghostlands.

[LordVargK]

- Garrisons were fine
- Legendaries were fine, just obtaining them was annoying for the first patch
- Artifacts were fine
- Azerite gear was annoying until 8.1
- Essences were fine
- Corruption is the only example that's actually a bad system


Of course, the most obvious difference is blizzard are actively listening and changing stuff on the beta more than any other expansion - look at the pvp changes most recently as an example. It's clear they want to get this right, in the case of covenants - clearly they have the data and it obvious tells them most people are happy with how things are. Just because preach, asmongold and bellular make malding videos about covenants every other day doesn't mean they're right about them

I think you can't generalize like that.
The experience depended heavily on the class you've played. Some classes lost many abilities with Legion, making the progress to regain a functional class a torture (at least I as WL felt that way). In that way Artifacts failed at launch (but were okay if you skipped a month or year and got the benefit of catch-up mechanisms).
Obtaining Legiondaries was fine with the last patch, and Legiondaries themselves were made fine after their rework. Before you were pretty fucked if you got a "utility" one.
I agree on Azerite gear. Though, again, for some specs Azerite was never really "good". It either felt meaningless (e.g. Blood DK) or one trait outshined all others dramatically (Frost mage, Demo WL). That's bad design imo.
Essences were okay, once your alts profited from the progress of you main, so with 8.3.

That said, ALL of the systems suck for people that like to play more than one character. And in this regard Shadowlands looks very promising, so I think Blizz learned the biggest lessen they could learn, which is why I'm optimistic about SL.

[schwarzkopf]

Blizzard have only been wrong once or twice (I think once was path of the titans).

The rest is just people whinging because they didn't get what they wanted.

[Zyky]

It's not up to you to decide whether Blizzard deserves my trust.

There's a saying; "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me." You'd do well living by that philosophy when it comes to Blizzard and their many failures of systems.

[MrLachyG]

Just going to plant this one more time so people dont forget.

that meme is obsolete after the efforts they have put in addressing feedback in SL Alpha & Beta

[Dioporco]

Blizzard have only been wrong once or twice (I think once was path of the titans).

The rest is just people whinging because they didn't get what they wanted.

And this is pretty much a straight bullshit, but what can we expect from "premium" posters

[Zyky]

Blizzard have only been wrong once or twice (I think once was path of the titans).

The rest is just people whinging because they didn't get what they wanted.

Except not really when Blizzard goes out and outright says that the systems were failures and goes out of their way to not implement a better version in future expansions.

[VinceVega]

I had fun with every expansion so far so i will also play this one. Are there annoying parts? Sure. Have they been gamebreaking for me? Definitly not.

[Dioporco]

- Garrisons were fine
- Legendaries were fine, just obtaining them was annoying for the first patch
- Artifacts were fine
- Azerite gear was annoying until 8.1
- Essences were fine
- Corruption is the only example that's actually a bad system

-True
-False, you probably were doing HC and weekly 10 so you didnt see the issue
-False again, you probably didnt play a pure DPS class
-Moderately false since the beside the "trait or get benched" problem there were , respec cost, impossibility to edit them per spec like essence
-Farming PVP or PVE for mandatory essence is bad design.
-True but not the "is the only example"

[facefist]

If we want a game where everything is 100 % polished (as in the opinion of the community, who will always find something to QQ about), we will never have a release. I think covenants are one good example: half the community is saying it is the worst things ever, while half of the community is saying it is the best thing ever. No matter how this turns out, someone is going to be pleased and someone is not going to be pleased.

I rather get a new expac that has some shitty mechanics than wait 6 months to get a expac that still has shitty mechanics. I know that some things will be totally shit, but I'm so bored with BfA that I rather have that than wait for longer.

[schwarzkopf]

And this is pretty much a straight bullshit

The truth is often mistaken for bullshit these days... by a special category of person.

- - - Updated - - -

Except not really when Blizzard goes out and outright says that the systems were failures

Trying to make the minority happy is one of their biggest failures ...

I mean people in BfA whinged about lack of choice and being master to RNG
Now in Shadowlands people are whinging about being given complete choice ... in almost every aspect of player power.

Then people whinge about grind because they can't control themselves, so blizzard puts limits on weekly progression then people whinge about time gating.

It is a no win situation.

[Gaidax]

I rather get a new expac that has some shitty mechanics rather than wait 6 months to get a expac that still has shitty mechanics. I know that some things will be totally shit, but I'm so bored with BfA that I rather have that than wait for longer.

That's one of my biggest driving principles - I'd rather get new content faster than them being lost in misleading feedback trying to fix issues that might or might not exist only to end up at square one after all, but with another half a year behind the schedule.

In the end, what I want is new raids and areas, whatever yet another system they throw at it - I'll live with. What I don't want is another half a year of Nyalotha while they fix real and imaginary issues.

If this means they will have to do changes in 9.1/2/3 - so be it.

[uncl55]

3) All rewards gated behind rep grinds in MOP, while reps are only available from mandatory dailies. Problem isn't fixed in time.

Man I still have PTSD from this... it burn me out so much and in the end destroyed our gild.

Fuck MOP daylies!

[Azerate]

Has it occured to you that maybe a lot of people share Preach's opinions? Or do you honestly believe he is completely alone with his thoughts on WoW?

Sure, but if you head to the forums 10 hours after a popular content creator uploads a video and you repeat word for word the theses found in that video it's clear the thread isn't a result of a spontaneous epiphany in your head.

This goes for all content creators btw, not just one.

[Tarba]

If we want a game where everything is 100 % polished (as in the opinion of the community, who will always find something to QQ about), we will never have a release. I think covenants are one good example: half the community is saying it is the worst things ever, while half of the community is saying it is the best thing ever. No matter how this turns out, someone is going to be pleased and someone is not going to be pleased.

I rather get a new expac that has some shitty mechanics rather than wait 6 months to get a expac that still has shitty mechanics. I know that some things will be totally shit, but I'm so bored with BfA that I rather have that than wait for longer.

Half the communauty saying it's the best thing ever ?
No.
It's a small part of the communauty saying "it does not affect me, so I don't care about others complaints".
People are not angry about a new progression system Blizzard will never manage correctly. But about the non swappable part of a system they'll fail to do properly.

[Kallisto]

that meme is obsolete after the efforts they have put in addressing feedback in SL Alpha & Beta

The meme was obsolete the moment it said "Players give constructive feedback." when especially on MMO champion the average feeback is stomp feet, cry and think acting like a spoilt brat being told no in the toy department is how to react to anything.

[Sluvs]

Is this the new craze? Telling that artifacts and legendaries were a failure?

Bellular video called legion a beta expansion until halfway through it. Is this the new discourse?

Because if it is, it's a stupid one.