Please remember all the times Blizzard were wrong - Launching WoW in Beta.

[kaminaris]

I love how you mark only a tiny part of my argument, and have nothing to say about the rest. If you think that making a choice between gameplay FUN or LOOKS is a valid choice, instead of looks vs looks, and power vs power separately, then you are sick.

Nah, its exactly how it works in real life. For example when you want to buy new car. Car A got a bit better engine, radio, warranty while second one is bit more economic, has bit better looks and steering.

You cannot simply understand that one thing that might be fun for you is not fun for other person (covenant ability) and same goes with looks (covenant theme).
You cannot understand that people have different taste.

[Soluna]

Nah, its exactly how it works in real life. For example when you want to buy new car. Car A got a bit better engine, radio, warranty while second one is bit more economic, has bit better looks and steering.

You cannot simply understand that one thing that might be fun for you is not fun for other person (covenant ability) and same goes with looks (covenant theme).
You cannot understand that people have different taste.

Only this is a video game in case you didn't know, and I play it to unwind, not worry about something similar to your car analogy. In real life I will worry about these problems, but ingame I'd rather not have to pick between such stupid things.

People like you need to get out in real life, live outside your mommy's basement, and get the stimulation of choice with consequences, instead of wanting it in a damn game.

Also your analogy kinda doesn't make sense, as you tell me to decide between cars. Looks and fun in gameplay are NOT the same. I never asked to have all the abilities, or all the mog. I want to make a choice between the mogs, and I want to make a choice for the ability, but not them clashing against each other.

I don't think you understand anything by the way. People like me do not want freedom of choice to swap covenant abilities or aesthetics as we please. I personally just want my covenant ability choice to not be directly connected to picking the covenant to which I feel like my character BELONGS.

[Lolites]

1. Garrison wasn't a problem for me, lack of content to do outside was (also later introduced gold mission, but it was just desperate act to keep subs).

2. Loved Legiondaries, it was great incentive to do many types of content, especially liked that in encourage you to do just emissary without need to grind all world quest. Only thing I would change is option to target next legenadary, I would prefer it over SL legendary system.

3. Sorry, I loved artifact system as well, especially during 7.0.

4. Yep, Azerite gear was shit for min-maxers and at best neutral for others. Only positive I see is first breach into post-titanforging world.

5. Again, loved Essences, it wasn't best system, but encouraged you to do different stuff like Legiondaries and that's big + for me. I wish I had more time to invest into rank 4 achiev + title, this will be veeeery rare in future expansions. And yeah, lack of catch up in early 8.3 was bad, no doubt about that.

6. Sadly corruption has lot more negatives than positivies as well, this changed my BfA (personal, I play Fury so class problems didn't affect me) score from 'good' (after 8.2) to 'mediocre' among WoW expansions.

Also I don't trust blindly Blizzard, but one thing I know - I had fun on launch with every expansion including WoD (bare technical difficulties); if some patch will be unfun for me (it's not only on Blizzard, sometimes we just burnout for few months), I'll just take break from WoW without creating drama. Am I doing something wrong?

pretty much this, but i disagree on corruptions as they FINALY make icecap frost dk build better than breath too bad its just for patch and now in SL well go back to breath or -15% dps

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I mean you dont get to tell others to shut up anymore than they get to tell you to shut up. There are issues and people are allowed to discuss it. I love Blizzard too doesnt mean I dont feel they are making another obvious mistake though.

sure, but if someone makes thread (multiple actualy, plus comments on other threads) about how every system in past 3 or so expansion sucks, and he still plays, it show he is at best troll and should be taken with a lot of salt...

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With that kind of mindset you will never going to go forward.

I think it's about time people realized that if Blizz was afraid of its own shadow in everything, horrified of change to what worked in past, this game would be dead years ago.

very much this

[prwraith]

Bliz has made it pretty obvious that they could care less about what players want lol.

It's all about the holy MAU metric for the investors. So enjoy your endless grinds open ended grinds. Want fights that are correctly tuned and tested on release? omegalol.

[Niwes]

Bliz has made it pretty obvious that they could care less about what players want lol.

It's all about the holy MAU metric for the investors. So enjoy your endless grinds open ended grinds. Want fights that are correctly tuned and tested on release? omegalol.

oh, some smart labradoodle.

after INSTANTLY telephoned with their famous Blizzard Marketing Crew and also with Bobby Kottick, i transfer 2 of their answers directly to you here:

1)
we NEVER EVER launch a beta. our whole product underlies a great, well working quality process. we just release the best of the best, for our beloved customers, you! if you, as a customer, ever become an unfinished product into your hands, we horribly failed. we grant this by a long running, multiple stages, alpha and beta test, as well as refined internal testings. we put HUGE effort into this, because quality is our top priority. not making money the most efficient way! you can be sure, we do the best we can, to offer you the best gaming experience possible. its your trust, we value here. and we value it VERY high!

2)
9.1 will fix it.

[kaminaris]

Only this is a video game in case you didn't know, and I play it to unwind, not worry about something similar to your car analogy. In real life I will worry about these problems, but ingame I'd rather not have to pick between such stupid things.

People like you need to get out in real life, live outside your mommy's basement, and get the stimulation of choice with consequences, instead of wanting it in a damn game.

Also your analogy kinda doesn't make sense, as you tell me to decide between cars. Looks and fun in gameplay are NOT the same. I never asked to have all the abilities, or all the mog. I want to make a choice between the mogs, and I want to make a choice for the ability, but not them clashing against each other.

I don't think you understand anything by the way. People like me do not want freedom of choice to swap covenant abilities or aesthetics as we please. I personally just want my covenant ability choice to not be directly connected to picking the covenant to which I feel like my character BELONGS.

You are so entitled that you dont understand basics of human nature, everything that is easy to obtain is cheap and doesn't give any satisfaction.
That also applies to games.

I get out plenty in real life and often have to make decisions. It is probably you who need to get out of basement and meet various people to understand you are not alone in world and different people have different opinions, like different things, broaden your horizons.

I simply dont like braindead games with zero value outside of achievements

My analogy is actually perfect, if you would ever bought a car you would understand it.

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Bliz has made it pretty obvious that they could care less about what players want lol.

It's all about the holy MAU metric for the investors. So enjoy your endless grinds open ended grinds. Want fights that are correctly tuned and tested on release? omegalol.

Oh but they do care, this is why we are getting covenants.

[LazuOG]

Yet you bash him and accuse him of just copying someone else's opinion. Why don't you just leave him to have his own opinion?

I agree with Preach and I came to the same conclusions he did way before he made videos speaking out about it. In fact I had all of the same concerns I am having now the moment they introduced the concept at Blizzcon. You just need to be able to rub two braincells together to realize that packing all of these things into covenants, and forcing people to decide between cosmetics, story and abilities and being locked into one of these covenants is a bad idea.

But thats impossible, man! Can't you see, the ONLY way to criticise Blizzard is if you are a Youtube/Streamer shill, people here agree on that. You can't just waltz in here with a critical viewpoint and claim to be thinking for yourself. Thats not how it works, man!

[Rageonit]

Also your analogy kinda doesn't make sense, as you tell me to decide between cars. Looks and fun in gameplay are NOT the same. I never asked to have all the abilities, or all the mog. I want to make a choice between the mogs, and I want to make a choice for the ability, but not them clashing against each other.

But you already have to choose fun/power & looks in a packet. When you pick a spec, because it's fun to play, you don't have a say how your animations will look. You are stuck with them, and those are actually more impactful than tmogs and mounts. If you really want a certain Covenant ability, you can pick that Covenant and simply never use the tmog/mount (which shouldn't be a problem, since this game has thounsands of items and mounts already), whereas you can't opt to hide your spell animations.

[LazuOG]

Blizzard have only been wrong once or twice (I think once was path of the titans).

The rest is just people whinging because they didn't get what they wanted.

If a large amount of people pay a monthly fee to play a game, they better be bitching about it when its handled poorly.
I've seen many of your posts by now and all of them were dismissive, ignorant, belittling, and, frankly, subjective in the most emotionally biased way possible.

Yes, most opinions are subjective, I know. Its a different thing though if you have an opinion rooted in objectivity, usually accompanied by reasonable arguments, or one thats rooted in subjectivity alone.

[Lolites]

Bliz has made it pretty obvious that they could care less about what TINY VOCAL MINORITY of players want lol.

fixed it for you

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If a large amount of people pay a monthly fee to play a game, they better be bitching about it when its handled poorly.

i have nothing against feedback, IF it actualy have a point, even if i disagree with it, but most of what people here call "feedback" is just whining that they did not get everything just handed to them for free...
feedback is important and useful, whining is pointles and SHOULD be ignored

[prwraith]

fixed it for you

So you're saying the silent majority in fact love endless grinds?

Because this would be news to me and basically everyone.

[Recovery]

So you're saying the silent majority in fact love endless grinds?

Because this would be news to me and basically everyone.

I think endless grinds should be in the game for completionists, but the endless grind shouldnt be the gatekeeper for end game progression.

There are people who play just to get exalted with reps. There are people who play to complete every quest in the game. etc etc etc.

Progression through end game pve and / or pvp shouldnt be gated behind anything that require logging on every day and completing. That should be a choice..

For the naysayers, believe it or not, there ARE people who just want to log on, knock out their raid and / or pvp rating desire for the week and then cy@ next week.

There are plenty of people who dont want to be forced to play 12+ hours a day every day, in order to keep up with people who DO want to do that. Thats why it should reward something other than power.

[Sluvs]

I love how you mark only a tiny part of my argument, and have nothing to say about the rest. If you think that making a choice between gameplay FUN or LOOKS is a valid choice, instead of looks vs looks, and power vs power separately, then you are sick.

It is a valid choice. You might dislike it, but it is 100% valid.

It is a game.

Making a choice that involves gameplay consequences is the point.

I only addressed that because it was the only part of the argument that I had an issue with.

A lot of the abilities are boring (Kyrian monks come to mind) and there is problem with the system. But these two things that I answered are not the problem. They are the point. They are, in itself, the feature.

[rrayy]

Only this is a video game in case you didn't know, and I play it to unwind, not worry about something similar to your car analogy. In real life I will worry about these problems, but ingame I'd rather not have to pick between such stupid things.

People like you need to get out in real life, live outside your mommy's basement, and get the stimulation of choice with consequences, instead of wanting it in a damn game.

Also your analogy kinda doesn't make sense, as you tell me to decide between cars. Looks and fun in gameplay are NOT the same. I never asked to have all the abilities, or all the mog. I want to make a choice between the mogs, and I want to make a choice for the ability, but not them clashing against each other.

I don't think you understand anything by the way. People like me do not want freedom of choice to swap covenant abilities or aesthetics as we please. I personally just want my covenant ability choice to not be directly connected to picking the covenant to which I feel like my character BELONGS.

And other people want different things. YOU nbeed to stop acting like you are the only one that matters and need to realize you are not the only one plying the game.

Also, insulting people like that is a good way to get people not to take you seriously.

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So you're saying the silent majority in fact love endless grinds?

Because this would be news to me and basically everyone.

NO, they silent majrioty does not care. They simply play the game and adapt to what is in front of them.

[Soluna]

You are so entitled that you dont understand basics of human nature, everything that is easy to obtain is cheap and doesn't give any satisfaction.
That also applies to games.

I get out plenty in real life and often have to make decisions. It is probably you who need to get out of basement and meet various people to understand you are not alone in world and different people have different opinions, like different things, broaden your horizons.

I simply dont like braindead games with zero value outside of achievements

My analogy is actually perfect, if you would ever bought a car you would understand it.

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Oh but they do care, this is why we are getting covenants.

Your analogy is frankly garbage, because deciding whether to buy either of the two is like comparing two COVENANT ABILITIES. It does not make sense to buy both cars, just like it wouldn't make sense to get both abilities obviously. What I want is similar to ''I want to buy this new car because my old one is in a bad state, but I also want to re-innovate my kitchen because it is also in a bad state'. I have to make a choice because both require money, but I will still get both down the line by saving up money.

WoW in shadowlands will ask me to EITHER buy a new car, OR to re-innovate my kitchen, no questions asked, and if you don't get that, it's not my problem. I still stand by my claim that you talk bullshit if you think that WoW needs more consequence. If you want decisions, then pick your class/race, pick if you will pursue gladiator, top 100 raider, or do +28 keys in time. If you want decisions, decide whether you want to spend your time farming a massive amount of gold for a brutosaur, or farm the crab mount in Naz'jatar.

Also, you were the one who couldn't stand my opinion, I initially tried to explain to someone who seemed pretty adamant about blizz's decision being correct that I am in a troublesome situation for a damn game, and you are the one who decided to cherry pick my reply, and disagree with it, with pretty shitty examples.

Finally, I think I get enough challenge in the game by aiming for top 100 every tier, I don't want anything the easy way, and I've been working towards gladiator steadily, which I hope to finally achieve in first season of SL. I am far from the person who wants things easily handed down to them.
Now leave me be, as I was already informed by someone that you are one of the posters not to be messed with, as you are notorious for the way you speak in mmo champion. Have a good day, and let's agree to disagree.

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But you already have to choose fun/power & looks in a packet. When you pick a spec, because it's fun to play, you don't have a say how your animations will look. You are stuck with them, and those are actually more impactful than tmogs and mounts. If you really want a certain Covenant ability, you can pick that Covenant and simply never use the tmog/mount (which shouldn't be a problem, since this game has thounsands of items and mounts already), whereas you can't opt to hide your spell animations.

While I agree with that, the covenants were made with the idea that you play them to identify with them through their looks, lore, and cosmetic rewards. It has been said again and again, yet they decide not to create evenly FUN (not balanced, just fun) abilities, and make it impossible for some of us to pick what covenant we actually like.

I personally really love venthyr, but in my opinion, venthyr covenant ability for warlocks is one of the most boring spells I've seen in game (not to mention very unsatisfying due to random nature of curse application). I am not saying that blizzard MUST be able to balance 48 abilities both in numbers, and fun, but I am saying that if they can't pull off something this ambitious, I'd suggest either of the two routes:

a) Pick an ability from the covenant you want, while the looks of a different covenant if you so choose, and still have to grind to swap either or
b) Make all 4 abilities available in a special talent row, and give them 4 different colors, to match the covenant you commit to, in order to allow people to relate strongly to a single identify, while allowing everyone to pick what is fun.

The reason I want this is because I've NEVER been forced before in the game to commit to a PART of my class. And no, committing to a spec is not the same, because playing a spec at 95% of its effectiveness is as easy as flipping a switch nowadays, and been like that since at least MoP. There are some different secondary priorities/etc, but it never stopped me from playing all my specs for hardcore progression. Covenants will though force me to either pick fun, OR looks. Also I do not think that any spec has visual effects that don't perfectly portray the spec's fantasy.

I've never decided to not play a spec because I thought that its spell effects did not fit its fantasy.

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It is a valid choice. You might dislike it, but it is 100% valid.

It is a game.

Making a choice that involves gameplay consequences is the point.

I only addressed that because it was the only part of the argument that I had an issue with.

A lot of the abilities are boring (Kyrian monks come to mind) and there is problem with the system. But these two things that I answered are not the problem. They are the point. They are, in itself, the feature.

That's fair, and thank you for coming back to me with this. I am completely fine with being locked down to a specific spell, and having to grind to change that. What I am not fine is to have to get the spell I find fun, yet not being able to identify with that specific covenant, pretty much locking me out of potential cool mog that I like to use (or mounts/back equipment), simply because blizzard decided to design abilities the way they did.

You admitted that there are a few problems with the system, and I am glad we agree on that at least. My main point is that I just hate the idea of not being able to choose what's most fun for me, and also what looks best. I've always had the ability to choose my favourite spec that I wanted to play mainly, and the mog to match it. I am not convinced that the positives outweight the negatives in this case, and if anything, to me it feels like covenants completely miss the mark with what they intended to do when it comes to me personally which was ''Commit to what your character resonates with''. I am forced to forsake fun gameplay if I want her appearance to be the way I imagine my character to be.

Or I have to forsake character identity if I want gameplay fun.

[Doffen]

Now lets hope they can stop being so stubborn and listen to what their playerbase wants instead of pushing their own visions of a system only to admit 2 patches later that it didnt work out. This is the main issue.

No, they should only take some of the feedback to do minor adjustments. To change something this fundamental just because someone dislike the whole idea won't help anyone. It would be a solid mess. They should listen to feedback, but they should never do big changes just because some players said so.

Blizzard should push their own visions of their systems.

[Soluna]

And other people want different things. YOU nbeed to stop acting like you are the only one that matters and need to realize you are not the only one plying the game.

Also, insulting people like that is a good way to get people not to take you seriously.

You are right, I am frustrated. And you know why I am frustrated? Because your reply is exactly how the hell people who are in agreement with blizzard's covenant system act towards people who dislike it. I am fucking done with people who think that I am stripping away their damn choice, for wanting choice in the game.

The 2 week grind system will keep you out of pugs no matter how you sugar coat it, because the players will just tell you 'just go swap covenant if you want an invite', just like they declined me from pugs due to being a warlock before building a super high rio score.

So in the end, even with forced choice, people will still decline you for picking the 'wrong' choice defined by the meta community. Is it wrong for people to be like that? Yes, but this is 2k20, and that's how people act. Get on with the times. I personally don't care about what's optimal, but the way blizzard forces to to pick ability OR looks gives me literally no choice, and strips me the possibility of finally having my blood elf look vampire themed.

What I am asking is for a decoupling of the abilities, and the looks, without necessarily wanting to freely swap between abilities. I don't mind picking an ability and having to regrind to get a new one, but I mind having only one fun ability, but that fun ability not being with the covenant my character resonates with. And I am pretty sure that the way I want things to work does not directly mess with the fun of anyone else.

Because as I said before, whether you pick the ability that matches your character's looks or whether you pick the fun ability, chances are you will always be asked in a pug to have the right ability or to be kicked. And in that sense, you are just locking either minmaxers, or people like me, from actually making a meaningful choice that is FUN, just because you think that being forced into that choice will invite you to more pugs.

So if anything, you, and the people who are in agreement with the covenant system as it is now are selfish, and act as if you are the only ones who matter.

[Arkura]

No, they should only take some of the feedback to do minor adjustments. To change something this fundamental just because someone dislike the whole idea won't help anyone. It would be a solid mess. They should listen to feedback, but they should never do big changes just because some players said so.

Blizzard should push their own visions of their systems.

Ok so with the feeback given with azerite powers. This is blizzard not listening to the feedback that was given and instead decided to go through with their ideas while ignoring all the feedback that came from the player base, only to come forward to say ok guys it didnt work as intended.

[Doffen]

Ok so with the feeback given with azerite powers. This is blizzard not listening to the feedback that was given and instead decided to go through with their ideas while ignoring all the feedback that came from the player base, only to come forward to say ok guys it didnt work as intended.

Well that's a good example right there how they should not do it because it came to beta like 3 days before live launch. That was the thing they messed up the most.

Look, systems can be liked or disliked. I also disliked Azerite Armor but how could they tweak it if they didn't really show it to people before the game actually went live. Like I said, the biggest issue was just that, no testing whatsoever. And that is also the one system they have indeed scrapped as a major game system for another(essences).

Legendaries in Legion. Started kinda crap, got tweaked once early, then another time 5 months in. And it worked pretty well. Artifact Weapon. Was hard to power up in the start for many(not for me, I absolutely loved it) but they tweaked it, changed it a bit and voila, it got better.

The thing I am pointing out is that Covenants are not perfect. It can be tweaked. But to change it fundamentally wouldn't help. It would help some players, but maybe not the majority and would indeed make it harder for the devs to come up with a solid replacement.

[Asrialol]

Only this is a video game in case you didn't know, and I play it to unwind, not worry about something similar to your car analogy. In real life I will worry about these problems, but ingame I'd rather not have to pick between such stupid things.

People like you need to get out in real life, live outside your mommy's basement, and get the stimulation of choice with consequences, instead of wanting it in a damn game.

Also your analogy kinda doesn't make sense, as you tell me to decide between cars. Looks and fun in gameplay are NOT the same. I never asked to have all the abilities, or all the mog. I want to make a choice between the mogs, and I want to make a choice for the ability, but not them clashing against each other.

I don't think you understand anything by the way. People like me do not want freedom of choice to swap covenant abilities or aesthetics as we please. I personally just want my covenant ability choice to not be directly connected to picking the covenant to which I feel like my character BELONGS.

Did you seriously use the "mom's basement" argument. How old are you? If you're above 20, you must have some serious insecurity issues.