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  1. #1

    Orc/draenei demon hunters

    Do you think Illidan would have trained Orc and Draenei demon hunters? You wouldn't see much Draenei but the Orcs were the bulk of his army. Although I could see Illidan only having Elves close in his headquarters. As the other races were mainly guarding the lower levels

  2. #2
    Elemental Lord Kyphael's Avatar
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    Now that The Illidari are part of The Alliance and Horde, I don't see why they can't train the races they are allied with who desire to become Demon Hunters. Just no DH Gnomes please.

  3. #3
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Likely not, no. Illidan seemed to feel that other races weren't qualified to be Demon Hunters for whatever reason, he was even loathe to train High/Blood Elves in the art, testing the first crop to practically destruction before Varedis proved it could be done by surpassing his Night Elven instructors.

    Illidan aside, though; I don't see any technical reason why non-Elves couldn't be Demon Hunters. Perhaps with Illidan out the picture the Illidari may decide to broaden their ranks to some degree.
    "Here lies a toppled god.
    His fall was not a small one.
    We did but build his pedestal,
    A narrow and a tall one."

  4. #4
    Titan Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Yes he would, if blizzard wished so, but that was not the "story we wanted to tell", so they made illidan train only elves, it was not rly a heavy lore implication, but a dev decision.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    Yes he would, if blizzard wished so, but that was not the "story we wanted to tell", so they made illidan train only elves, it was not rly a heavy lore implication, but a dev decision.
    Naw Illidan was a pretty racist dude, he preferred orc canon-fodder in terms of fel orcs.

  6. #6
    Titan Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Naw Illidan was a pretty racist dude, he preferred orc canon-fodder in terms of fel orcs.
    don't remember him being that much racist to a point to not train other things, especially when he had some humans in his harem and considered other races ilidari.

    it is clearly a dev game decision, and they not opening to other races by now too.

  7. #7
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    don't remember him being that much racist to not train other things, especially when he had some humans in his harem.

    it is clearly a dev game decision, and they not opening to other races by now too.
    Illidan specifically said he didn't want to, though. Unsure if it was a racist thing, or perhaps something that only Elves can do - the only way to discover that would be for a non-Elven individual to enact the ritual and see if they came out as a Demon Hunter.
    "Here lies a toppled god.
    His fall was not a small one.
    We did but build his pedestal,
    A narrow and a tall one."

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    don't remember him being that much racist to not train other things, especially when he had some humans in his harem.

    it is clearly a dev game decision, and they not opening to other races by now too
    That was for his underlings, but lets just say it is most likely a bit of both.

  9. #9
    I wonder if they'll evolve past the need to have a race pick up the fantasy of a class just to expand the number of cosmetic alternatives can use it's playstyle.

    Why not give a different class that use the same mechanics as demon hunters, with a similar theme, but not quite that and open it up to other races.

    Give an alternate starting scenario like they did with allied race DKs, and call it a day. That'd work. Preserves the unique fidelity of the Illidari, and opens up the DH to more races.

    Personally i liked the idea of the guy that suggested Blademasters should be given using the demon hunter class mechanic, just give it as a class skin or class identity. That works for me.
    Last edited by Beloren; 2020-09-11 at 04:31 PM.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by EnigmAddict View Post
    I wonder fit hey'll evolve past the need to have a race pick up the fantasy of a class just to expand the number of cosmetic alternatives can use it's playstyle.
    There are very few hard lore restrictions for classes and races, almost anything goes in theory.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    There are very few hard lore restrictions for classes and races, almost anything goes in theory.
    ARe you in favour of maintaining the status quo, lifting all restrictions ? or relaxing some where appropriate with good lore/fitting lore adaptations where necessary?

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by EnigmAddict View Post
    ARe you in favour of maintaining the status quo, lifting all restrictions ? or relaxing some where appropriate with good lore/fitting lore adaptations where necessary?
    For the sake of diversity I really cannot endorse opening up more classes to elves, as npcs sure, but not playable.

  13. #13
    I am Murloc! Dellis0991's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Illidan specifically said he didn't want to, though. Unsure if it was a racist thing, or perhaps something that only Elves can do - the only way to discover that would be for a non-Elven individual to enact the ritual and see if they came out as a Demon Hunter.
    The orcs and draenei/eradar seem to have taken "well" to fel energy there might be some amoung them who probably can handle ritual. The legion expansion kinda proved that taurens can too.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    For the sake of diversity I really cannot endorse opening up more classes to elves, as npcs sure, but not playable.
    Not even maybe squeeze in Nightborne druid valewalkers or Night elf shaman

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Dellis0991 View Post
    The orcs and draenei/eradar seem to have taken "well" to fel energy there might be some amoung them who probably can handle ritual. The legion expansion kinda proved that taurens can too.
    But weren't all who turned to fel corrupted, becoming evil? The elves pulled through because they seemed to have this intense resolve to avenge their losses on the demons and a great drive to protect their world - all the other races chose other options, those who touched fel succumbed to it's temptations. I also think the elves natural affinity with magic aided in this resilience too, we see the smae repeated with the void, were elves again (shen'drlaar according to Wrathion ) and void elves seem to have explored the void and in the latter, handle it beyond resorting to spiritual means to access, and not succumbing to it. Although it's perfect for a horror story of the over ambitious scientist that played with malevolent strange evil power but in his hubris ignored every warning and promintion, only to have it eventually devour them all mwuhah.

    But in Warcraft there are some good survivors of evil powers. Dks were the first, or technically DHs were the first through Illidan, and void elves the latest

  15. #15
    Illidan? No. In the story presented so far, he only trained elves.

    But, they could update the DH starting experience later on and add any races that they wanted, like they did for DKs. It would be cool if the Nightborne and Void Elves were at least added, but races like orcs would be fitting too, with fel orc skins. I could see Draenei demon hunters with an Eredar skin.
    3 hints to surviving MMO-C forums:
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    btw: Spires of Arak = Arakkoa.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by EnigmAddict View Post
    Not even maybe squeeze in Nightborne druid valewalkers or Night elf shaman
    Nope, opening up other races to these classes sure, but elves are just overwhelming in number already.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Nope, opening up other races to these classes sure, but elves are just overwhelming in number already.
    But really won't it just be the same elf players picking up shaman and druid if you opened these up to all races. Presumably as you can only be on one character at a time, you're adding more elves by switching from your elf rogue to your new elf druid, or from your elf hunter to your new elf shaman.

    And if they open up the DH to other races like orc and Draenei, isn't that going to decrease the elf population, presumably people who liked the class abut not the race would switch, while those who like the race would be unaffected.

    It occurs to me that more class/race combos are really for fans of a race.. new players will pick race initially on aesthetic and likely stay within that bracket (monster or human or half way) and just cycle between that.

    As a develop you want people to keep playing your game, and if elves make them happy, and blood elf shaman, night elf shaman , nightborne and void elf shaman would actually gain 4 months subscription time for all the elf fans that play that race, you've just bought yourself a huge surplus.

    Think of the alternative, if an elf lover is playing a shaman on another race, he's likely not his main, when the option opens up guess who's going to be playing his shaman a lot more.. especially if the lore that makes it happen is good with iconic characters etc (these things are always worth it), however if it's a non-elf lover, it won't make any difference. I don't see someone who is indifferent to elves, and already playing a shaman they like or druid they like going to say oh, I'm gonna switch over...


    It's hard to see a scenario where more choice is worse, and you have everything to gain if you make the new choices meaningful and immersive with good lore and exciting developments.

    Here are detailed scenarios I wrote for elven shaman, druids and paladins where they are missing. Hope you enjoy , I tried hard to make it lore appropriate.
    https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...f-Shaman/page3



    Quote Originally Posted by EnigmAddict View Post
    They don't need to work alongside elementals to have access to the shaman class, they don't need to be traditional shaman like orcs and Tauren are.. we see this a lot. Tidesages aren't traditional shaman, Blood knights not traditional paladins, Drust druids and Zandalari ones aren't traditional druids etc

    All they need to do, is be able to do roughly the same things, it doesn't matter if they go about it in a different way.

    Elves' strongest area is magic, I really feel they should have access to all magical capable classes and they should be very good at it. They don't have to have it the same way other races do, but they should.

    With regards to shamanism, elves are very familiar with it, remember night elves were created from Dark trolls, so why wasn't shamanism a thing of their civilisation? Because they mastered something that totally eclipsed it, the arcane, which can control and generate elements and so much more. Elves should be able to effectively create their own version of what effectively amounts to the shaman class.

    Shaman:
    Elemental manipulation has been part of elven magic from the beginning, through the arcane rather than begging/bargaining with elementals. Whether from raw handling of elements, to elemental augmentation of melee and even extending to restorative applications, it's hard to conceive Shamanism would be out of reach for elves.

    My theory. The Moonguard developed and mastered many ways of fighting with magic, one of them was adept use of elemental magic using the arcane, while this wasn't all lost (seeing that modern mages wield fire and frost), expertise in air and earth, as well as their long lost battle triage methods that had actually discovered how to utilise water to heal. The rest of elven kind that we know of after the sundering though, developed to varying degrees, mastery over the elements via the arcane and how to summon and bind elementals willing or unwilling (as we witness in the mage class), however they still had areas of expertise lost and forgotten. One such was in restorative areas, which they managed without having priests, paladins and druids available to cover that area. Other areas like air and earth were also not as developed extensively or utilised as fire and frost (were).

    The return of the Moonguard and the Duskguard (the version of the Moonguard that stayed in Suramar to protect those who stayed behind) bring back this knowledge and fighting style to the elves. Allowing access to the shaman class as elven elementalists. 10,000 years ago, the elves use of the arcane to control the very building blocks of matter included the elements to a degree that far outstripped the shaman of 10,000 years ago and the capability of many elementals having the ability to use all elements. But it's been 10,000 years, and shamanism has also come a long way, most recently coming in leaps and bounds through the exploits of Thrall during the events of cataclysm and the coming together of the Earthen ring that combined shamanistic knowledge from various traditions.

    This caused the level of shamanism to grow even further, that by the time the Moonguard and Duskguard returned, what powerful shaman can achieve with the elements is close enough to rival the fabled elemental wielders of the elves. Basically, the rest of the world has caught up - well roughly - as far as combat applications are concerned anyway.

    So the reason why shamanism wasn't available was because they didn't know how to use water to heal till the Moonguard/Duskguard returned to supply the lost knowledge and techniques, they also helped them develop air and earth manipulation which was an under developed area amongst arcane users.

    Moonguard spread the knowledge to the Night elven Darnassian arcane users, the void elves also learn it from them as ties between the two groups strengthen. Meanwhile the Duskguard instruct new Nightborne recruits and their blood elven allies allowing all 4 elven races to be shaman.


    Druid:
    Basis: All elves love nature, and they all have a varying degree of practice with nature magic. Each group has a story that can extend this or open the door to druidism.

    Void elves:
    Seeking to protect the emerald dream from the void, night elf druids seek and consult void elves who are keen to extend their knowledge of the ephemeral realm and the study of the voids effect on it and nature. Botanical lovers amongst the void curious Thalassians, answer the call, training with the druids and bringing void expertise. They hope to cleanse void corruption from nature and the dream, strengthen nature and in particular the dream to defend against the void, but in addition to that, they also study void augmented nature as a tool and a means to preserve the nature, and study the adaptability of nature in this situation. This could yield new results, and is only explored in areas that are impossible to rid of the void's influence.

    Void elves open new void/nature balance streams, healing nature of void via void displacements and reconstitution (including nature leveraged void healing) and augmenting animal augmentation with void as means of empowering Azeroth's feral allies against the malevolent force so they are not consumed by it but can utilise it instead to defeat the more seditious denizens from the void. Their efforts yield much fruit. Allowing void elf druids.

    Nightborne:

    They learn druidism from the Valewalker Farodin and take to it very well because of their connection to the Arcan'dor, balance between nature and arcane (and their inherent ancestral nature and arcane affinities). Because of this, the area of specialisation most excelled at, and the hallmark of Nightborne druidism becomes Balance druids. They also get instruction from Val'sharah druids who joined the Nightfallen rebellion during the Suramar campaign and remain friendly with the Nightborne. Val'sharah druids are not aligned to Darnassus, they're a neutral druidic culture of mostly night elves (with visiting dryads/keepers and returning night elf worgen ) that are more affiliated with the Cenarion Circle than Darnassus, they are fond of the Nightborne too like Farodin and enjoy reconnecting with their kin to teach them their philosophy of balance and harmony.

    Nightborne botanists also take to druidism, especially restoration druidism, exploring solar , nature and arcane effects to aid the process. However feral druidism is rather weak amongst them, but a few Nightborne fascinated by the magic of shapeshifting (which was not possible in the pre-sundering earlier iterations of what would become the druid (12,00-15,000 years ago)) and those who are more in touch with their primal side as well as having a fondness for animals take to this branch of druidism.

    The reason druidism wasn't immediately accessible when the Nightborne joined the horde, was that it took a little more time initially to adjust to operating in balance (for the race as a whole post Nightwell), a vital necessity for Nightborne but initially one that was not without its challenges, but in time, this was overcome and the Nightborne discovered they had great talent in this field.



    Blood elves:
    The blood elven nature enthusiasts and magical researchers absolutely refuse to refer to themselves as druids, they are Botanists, nature is their game and love , fascination and study, scientifically and magically (always a great interest to a blood elf) of nature hadn't developed as much (relative to the Darnassians) amongst the Sin'dorei due to the schism with the Long vigil society of which the druid Shan'do presided over, but love and research for nature is inherent to all elves, and despite the snub, blood elves ever keen to master all forms of magic and explore them, did not intend leave this one lagging behind indefinitely. Avenues that greatly increased their knowledge came to them in the years following the 3rd war - where they went into over drive to master all things magical and never be taken over again. After the events of TBC and WotLK, a group of Dryads/Keepers (the Northrend variety) made their way south and interacted with the Sin'dorei. They were able to find less terminal/more amenable solutions to the treants' problems with the Dead Scar and provided the key to finally being able to heal the Deadscar after a joint collaboration with blood elven botanists and Magisters. Fascinated by their knowledge, skill, and friendship and very grateful for their help, Quel'thalas offered friendship and open doors to them, the free dryads and keepers are often found visiting and teaching Botanists new and advanced nature techniques that are effectively druidism. Together much of Quel'thalas' forestry has been restored. [This comes with quests in the updated Quel'thalas zone]

    But that's not the only area change happened, once the Nightborne took to Balance druidism, the blood elves were eager to learn from them, though unwilling to develop friendships with kaldorei , especially Darnassian druids, at least at first. The Nightborne Valewalkers were happy to extend and share their knowledge, teaching Sin'dorei botanists and arcanists with a love and preference for more advanced nature/arcane combined applications and studies. In time however, love and fondness for nature would overcome long and deep seated prejudices (at least amongst the Botanists), and grudging friendships based on mutual respect would grow between all those in the druid field - who are individuals that take to the harmony of nature - whether peaceful or violent. While the Sin'dorei generally avoid the Darnassian dominated Cenarion circle, Their Botanist order flourishes with their new allies.

    It is curious that the Sin'dorei did not once ask for assistance from the gentle Tauren, whether from pride or looking down on them, the amicable Tauren did not get offended by the snub, but instead committed themselves to helping the Sin'dorei botanists (who had some struggles with the transitioning into the higher echelons of nature magic which is effectively druidism) master their extended studies in this field. Noticing that direct help was not appreciated or wanted by the blood elves from them, but unwilling to just give up on their horde allies, the wiser (than they appear) Tauren druids decided to assist indirectly, leaving knowledge clues making sure powerful techniques and advise were discussed within auditory range of blood elf botanists where casual conversations failed, and other such techniques to pass on knowledge without making it appear they were teaching or instructing. The Tauren's help was instrumental in helping the blood elves who greatly struggled initially with finding balance between nature and arcane, often over arcanising - and might have failed if not for their persistence. Their gentle persistence was instrumental in really turning around prejudices amongst the Sin'dorei towards the Tauren and in time allowed some dear friendships and appreciation to develop as well as new found respect for Tauren druids. This in turn actually slowly opened the door for Blood elf botanists to take part in Cenarion circle affairs, they would never admit or show they learn from night elves without superficial reluctance, but with Nightborne, Northrend dryads and Tauren by their side, they grew in this.




    Paladins:

    Basis: Unlike the other 2 classes, Paladins are very religion based, what this means is that it isn't unexpected for the version of paladin to be different for each group because of their underlying faith. As such it is better to have each paladin group operate slightly differently. The important thing is at the heart, or "under the hood" so to speak, they are paladins, though in lore they have unique names for the class. Like Tidesages did for Kul'tiran shaman, who are Tidesages not shaman but "under the hood" so to speak is the shaman class, so it is with these new paladin options.

    Night elves:
    Priestly warriors have not been anything new for night elves for the last 15,000 years, The Order of Elune has long had brave women and men who applied their divine and arcane powers to combat, however since the struggles of the sundering and the leadership of Tyrande, the augmentation has come to the rangers and hunters - and well the paladin class doesn't have a range retribution specialisation now has it. Well breakthrough came with the Night warrior ritual that transforms elven combatants to melee masters augmenting their powerful glaive strikes with void, arcane and light magic. This has opened all specialisations of the Paladin class to Night elves. And which is why it is now available.

    While the sentinel army had melee combatants, most, while gifted with weapons were not with magic, it was the magic wielding priestesses , who also rode into battles with their bows and arrows, calling down the stars and arcane bolts of energy. But with the Night warrior combatants, , there melee based retribution comes with void and arcane energy, while their healing with Star Light and their protection augmented by arcane, void and star light.


    Void elves:
    Void elves have been able to use the void in combat to augment their melee attacks since quite early on. In fact it is quite common for void elf warriors to employ void magic in their attacks, however, some particularly excelled due to their near religious levels of devotion , moral rigour and steadfastness. Void elves easily eclipsed the Twilight counterparts in void applications for battle with the extensive and diligently gained and applied knowledge of their research as well as distinguished powerful instructors like Alleria and ethereal Locus walker. However the area that had stalled was healing applications of the void. It took a while for priests interested in the void to delve to the depths and understanding of utilising the void for healing and discovering ways.

    They had long since theorised this would be possible, although before their void studies took off, most known applications from the shadowy realm were damaging not restorative. But encounters with healing and regenerating old gods, Black Empire armies, new knowledge from the Locus walker and Alleria were instrumental in helping the Priests and healers break their impasse and opening the door to far greater healing capability and utility. Now void elf priests are able to use the shadows to heal as effectively as Light priests, and some of them prefer to fight with weapons, these become the Void Knight healers, while the gifted warriors who excel at augmenting the void for melee combat whether offensive or defensive become the Void Knight Protectors and Vengeance knights (i.e. Retribution)

    The Void knights use the void for healing, protection and retribution fully.


    Nightborne:
    While Tyrande's reticence and cold sternness was off putting and even upsetting for many, it had quite the opposite effect on others, Tyrande didn't spend all her time criticising the Nightborne during the campaign though she made her disgust of the Nightwell addiction quite plain - her beauty and chosen status as the voice of Elune has its powerful allure, and despite her attitudes, her Goddess was very interested in the Nightborne and Tyrande's intervention with healing and words from the Goddess were also very inspiring during her campaign in Suramar. The thing is because of her other attitude, the Nightborne were drawn to the Goddess and not quite as much the Darnassians. An ancient people very proud of their tradition and heritage as the Headquarters of the Order of Elune and still admiring Tyrande, Nightborne believers, saved by the hand of Elune during the invasion of Suramar, have rekindled their fire and devotion in a somewhat revival amongst their kind.

    While it is true some a led by tradition with the reclamation of the Temple at Falannar, big strides were made when Val'sharah priestess refugees joined their cause and the cathedral of Eternal Night was liberated, there the liberated High Priestess Dejhanna (a ghost but with more behind that) under direct instruction from the Goddess, has aided the Nightborne in re-establishing and rebuilding their version of the Order.

    Theirs is based on the pre-sundering version. Unlike Tyrande's Darnassian based branch, that's mostly martial with Sentinels and wardens, the Nightborne are a more temple and civilisation orientated priestly order as it was originally, committed to learning and extending knowledge of the goddess and the titans. However many ancient strands of the order's faiths such as Star Augurs, the constellas, and Star foretelling, star spiritual assignments and devotional predictions. The pre-sundering kaldorei used Order of Elune Star Augurs and fore-tellers to determine fortunes, careers, and outline plans for the lives of every night elf born, many ties star birth sign was tattooed magically on them , and you learnt to draw power from your star and often had names based on them. Many of these ways were not possible under a shield, and found revival with the order.

    While their Darnassian counterparts having no need for such super structured lives had many of these branches of their religion minimised, they find revival amongst the Nightborne and with them come the Holy maiden warriors of Elune, an ancient warrior maiden military caste that specialised in melee combat, not range.

    Inspired by Liadrin and her Blood knights, and very proud of their ancient heritage, the revived priest order under tutelage of their ancient heroes in the cathedral (though ghosts) have been training new priests and holy warriors with the ancient knowledge of the Order of Elune, these holy maidens (men now included as one of the changes from before) use the arcane power in the stars and the moon, combining with star Light to damage and heal their foes in close combat. Just like their blood elf counterparts use the light.

    And thus the Nightborne Paladin or Star Lancers have become quite the thing
    Last edited by Beloren; 2020-09-11 at 05:53 PM.

  18. #18
    The real reason why we have only Bloodelf/Nightelf Dhs is because it's a lot of work to make meta forms and dh only features for more races.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyphael View Post
    Now that The Illidari are part of The Alliance and Horde, I don't see why they can't train the races they are allied with who desire to become Demon Hunters. Just no DH Gnomes please.
    the illidari are their own faction and they said that one day they would take back the black temple as their home

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by enigma77 View Post
    The real reason why we have only Bloodelf/Nightelf Dhs is because it's a lot of work to make meta forms and dh only features for more races.
    This. Lore wise, I think that orc and draenei would make plenty of sense. And no weirder than when they decided 'oh hey worgen and goblin dks were here all along too' in Cata.

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