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  1. #41
    yes, it was the worst rework, by far
    c

  2. #42
    Yes it is.

  3. #43
    I like the new survival hunter /shrug it's subjective.

  4. #44
    It’s the worst thing done to a class ever. It’s on the same level as making fire mages all of a sudden be healers. Stupid and pointless melee class in a sea of better melee classes.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Leakage View Post
    I'm glad you enjoy the redesign. However, blizzard class fantasy is not the same as a completely separate franchise. For 12 years, the hunter class fantasy was a ranged damage dealer. This changed in 2016 with the Legion launch when they revamped Survival into a melee spec. I know a ton of people tried out survival (myself included) but those people were initially drawn to a ranged damage class. The survival population is so low because it alienated a larger part of the hunter audience in favor of a smaller audience wanting a melee hunter spec.

    MM hunters and BM hunters can freely swap to the opposite spec if they are unhappy with how one plays/performs. Survival can't say the same, which is another big factor.
    *looks at the classic hunter survival talent tree*

    Seems to me they always wanted survival to be melee but just couldn't figure out how they wanted it to go so they left it a hodgepodge until Wrath, gave up entirely Cata thru WoD, then finally figured out something they liked that was workable.
    The most difficult thing for people to do is objectively look at something they don't like and be able to accept that it is not bad, that other people like it, and if it was changed to the way they'd like it that other people would not like it and want it changed back. The second most is to receive something they didn't want or ask for and be grateful for it, not immediately demand what they wanted instead.

  6. #46
    The Insane Daemos daemonium's Avatar
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    As far as revamps go I’d say it’s one of the best after some of the clunk was fixed going from legion to Bfa.

    I’d say assassin in legion was worse.

    All three pally specs in cata getting holy power.

    Enh shaman going into legion.

    Moonkin going into legion

    And likely others that are slipping my mind. Though I’d think it’s safe to say it’s the more divisive revamp.

  7. #47
    Titan Maxilian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laqweeta View Post
    Much like Feral Druid, there are far better melee specs to invite to M+/Raids and thus it suffers in that regard. Blizzard is okay with this because, well, idiocy - and they let it drag on an *entire* expansion and then some.
    Maybe because they are a popular PVP option for the Hunters, they may think is ok as long as they have their niche

    - - - Updated - - -

    By the way, i wonder, why are people so angry about the new Survival hunter? I mean... in general, Survival have always been the least popular option, it may have had a path or 2 where it shinned, but... it wasn't really popular either.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Leakage View Post
    It's sad seeing the numbers.

    Using logs, 92% of all hunters in Heroic Nyalotha are BM, 6% are MM, and 2% are Survival. If you go to mythic, it is 97% BM, 2% MM, and 1% Survival.
    Lets be fair, that have nothing to do with "players don't like this spec" is more of how Mythic is, if you need a hunter, you don't need it melee. (Range class have that advantage in general, and more with hunters, that are range class with the mobility of a melee class)

  8. #48
    Bloodsail Admiral Pigglix's Avatar
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    what if the old surv is reseverd for the ranged dps spec of dark rangers.

    my guts tells me, dark rangers will have 2 specs like DH, a tank one and a ranged one, and on its build, will offer options to go like the old survival or something more bursty, being a full mobile ranged class, with either all shots instant cast or the filler/generator with a cast time.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by LeifErikson View Post
    It's been four years since Legion revamped survival hunters, and since then I've barely seen them. I played this new spec for a while and I found it quite boring and pointless.

    What are your thoughts on this spec? Why do you think nobody plays it?
    Combination of things. The purists and people that are upset about losing range SV and stick to the “I play hunter to be range!”
    Another factor is that those who are open to it realize it does shit dps and brings nothing to the table that other melee can do better.
    There are some who play it at the high end, but those seem to be Hunters that are in guilds that can make up for the lack of damage the spec brings.
    Honestly, as it stands I would say it’s the worst revamp, but it could be one of the best if it was actually made competitive. Last I’ve seen Blizzard still has SV internal GCD set at 1.5 seconds vs all other melee having 1 second, SV does not have 5% parry baseline like other melee, and it’s damage is just abysmal. If Blizzard fixes these things it could see a nice rise in popularity, it’s just unfortunate that we won’t really know how well received it could be until these issues are addressed.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by LeifErikson View Post
    It's been four years since Legion revamped survival hunters, and since then I've barely seen them. I played this new spec for a while and I found it quite boring and pointless.

    What are your thoughts on this spec? Why do you think nobody plays it?
    Survival was a hell of a lot of fun in Legion. It's been boring ever since BFA and nothing about that is changing in Shadowlands

  11. #51
    For me personally, yes. And not just survival imo, MM didn't exactly go from shit to amazing either. The only winner is BM in my book.

    Not saying the hunter situation is a tragedy, and other specs like combat turning into an RNG pirate are also questionable, but still. You look at balance for example and how extremely elevated the spec is because of the Legion changes, or even demo finding an identity after DH came and yanked it from them, hunter just doesn't look great.

  12. #52
    yes, hunters basically have 2 specs now

  13. #53
    Top 2 worst revamp or rework for any spec was the change for Survival going from TBC to WotLK. Only BfA MM beats that one.

    Melee survival is actually fun to play imo. Legion Survival wasn't rewarding enough as some say, while BfA surv flows better and is easier to play. There could have been a middle ground. I am a bit disappointed that they don't make Mongoose Bite and Flanking Strike baseline, but still it will be a top 5-6 spec for me going forward in SL.

    Overall though Hunter only got Survival that is fun for me and thats a shame. Going for my favorite iteration of any spec in the game(Marksman Hunter in Legion) to worst(MM Hunter in BfA) it has been a rough one. So I am very happy about Survival was here to make me play my first and most played character in BfA as well. And BM is just so too boring for me to get some good playtime on.
    - Enough prattling. Let them come. We shall grind their bones to dust.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Archmage Xaxxas View Post
    I played it religiously during Legion. It became my new favorite Spec/Class.

    BfA changes reverting it back to a Semi-Ranged basically ruined the spec fantasy, been Marks since.
    Pretending the dumpster fire that was Legion SV was better than BFA SV from any standpoint is a pretty hot take.

    Quote Originally Posted by Archmage Xaxxas View Post
    That's what BfA did to Survival, and you have a solid point.

    Before BfA, that wasn't a point to be made.
    Uh, yes it was. Legion SV was rarely competitive and was only good in very particular burst cleave scenarios.

    It really does sound like you're looking at Legion SV through rose-tinted goggles. It was a deeply troubled spec even for people who liked melee Hunters.

    Quote Originally Posted by Easyclassictopkeklel View Post
    if SV wasnt the dominant ranged spec nobody would play it anyways
    There were plenty of times where it wasn't the dominant ranged spec yet it was still very popular; Siege of Orgrimmar being a notable example.

    Quote Originally Posted by kail View Post
    Outside of the ranged difference, that argument can be applied to any class that has more than one dps spec. One will mathematically outperform the other at the whim of Blizzard's tunings.
    Being melee is a nail in the coffin. It makes it significantly harder for SV to stand out.

    In the past, SV being viable at all in a raid usually meant it saw decent participation and if it were anywhere close to top DPS for Hunters it would usually be the most popular pick. Now you have tiers like Uldir where SV was ahead of the other specs yet still wasn't picked because of the melee.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arch-Angel of Riots View Post
    The "Monster Hunter" franchise disagrees with you.
    This isn't Monster Hunter. This is WoW. WoW Hunters were from the beginning defined around ranged weapons and pets. This means people who liked melee generally didn't pick Hunter. When they go to that class and force a melee spec on it there isn't going to be a warm reception in the class for it, and history has proven that it didn't give many melee players reason to reroll either.

    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    *looks at the classic hunter survival talent tree*

    Seems to me they always wanted survival to be melee but just couldn't figure out how they wanted it to go so they left it a hodgepodge until Wrath, gave up entirely Cata thru WoD, then finally figured out something they liked that was workable.
    Nope, that's just your poor understanding of the intent of the Survival tree in Classic and BC. It was meant to be the tree that added versatility particularly in PvP. Part of that was buffing melee attacks because in PvP you would undoubtedly get caught within the minimum range quite often. It was still intended to be played primarily at ranged, however. That came with the class, and it didn't take long for Survival to have its own ranged-centric talents.

    https://i.imgur.com/kBVr5Uc.png

    This is the original WoW manual page from 2004. It states the intent of the class pretty clearly.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Maxilian View Post
    By the way, i wonder, why are people so angry about the new Survival hunter? I mean... in general, Survival have always been the least popular option, it may have had a path or 2 where it shinned, but... it wasn't really popular either.
    Survival was actually routinely a popular spec when it was ranged. You're conditioned to think of it as an unpopular spec because melee Survival has been around for 4 years now and has been unpopular the entire time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Doffen View Post
    Top 2 worst revamp or rework for any spec was the change for Survival going from TBC to WotLK. Only BfA MM beats that one.
    Unless Readiness was absolutely crucial and essential for your enjoyment of Survival this is a positively ridiculous thing to say. WotLK Survival basically took BC Survival and added stuff to it. The only major loss from a playstyle perspective was Readiness becoming a Marksmanship talent.

    But I know we've been over this before and you will just deny and deflect with more absurd arguments.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    *looks at the classic hunter survival talent tree*

    Seems to me they always wanted survival to be melee but just couldn't figure out how they wanted it to go so they left it a hodgepodge until Wrath, gave up entirely Cata thru WoD, then finally figured out something they liked that was workable.
    I will never understand this argument.. Why do I not have a wand spec for mages then?

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by FpicEail View Post
    Unless Readiness was absolutely crucial and essential for your enjoyment of Survival this is a positively ridiculous thing to say. WotLK Survival basically took BC Survival and added stuff to it. The only major loss from a playstyle perspective was Readiness becoming a Marksmanship talent.

    But I know we've been over this before and you will just deny and deflect with more absurd arguments.
    Yeah, just like your usual nonsense of the playstyle of surv in TBC and WotLK was essentially the same. It is absurd. Positively absurd.
    - Enough prattling. Let them come. We shall grind their bones to dust.

  17. #57
    There are so many melee specs in game, it was a big mistake to make survival a melee spec, only because of this. Especially when there are so many melee trying to get into raids and that leads to other problems and so on... I mean, what were the classes we got after TBC? DK, monk, DH, all melee... Did we need melee hunter too?

    But ofc, this is not the only reason why it was a mistake. My original character was a hunter, played with it through vanilla and TBC. "Melee hunter" was a community joke back then (vanilla), like "hunter weapon" was. And then, we got melee hunters... Bliz has humor, I got to give them that.

    I went rogue for WotLK, even when hunters were pretty dope for TBC, like top DPS material, because I wanted to play melee (I had a rogue alt I was enjoying a lot). And if you want to play mDPS, you'll probably choose a proper mDPS class, one with 3 mDPS specs or at least 2, like warrior. And if you want to play a rDPS class, then you'll probably choose a class with 3 rDPS specs, or at least 2. And that's because it's a lot more probable to find a spec you like to play or a spec that is optimal for what you like to do in WoW, depedning on what one's priority is.

    But but but... druid... someone may say. Well, I am not talking about hybrids, but about pure DPS classes. If you choose to play a hybrid, then you should expect all kinds of different specs. So, when talking about a pure DPS class, like a Hunter, it's close to useless having a melee spec, in my opinion ofc. For most it's like having only 2 specs to choose from and this doesn't help you enjoy the class or the game. Yeah, for most, not all. But still, class design should follow what most people enjoy, otherwise you are left with a game played by the few.
    Last edited by orsraunia; 2020-09-14 at 08:11 AM.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by threadz View Post
    according to random internet forum people SV is the best spec ever made, yet none want to actually main it.

    it was a shitty revamp that killed the spec and the class has only had 2 specs since.
    If you’re going by popularity then MM is also a shitty spec that no one plays and shouldn’t exist either.

  19. #59
    Is it the worst revamp?
    From a popularity perspective I think so. SV was always quite popular, and now it's the least played spec since the change.

    From a gameplay perspective, it's hard to say. IMO the melee survival isn't a horrible spec to play. I would take ranged SV back any day of the week; but seeing as we're seemingly stuck with melee SV, there are some merits to be found.

    There are some very fun elements: The mongoose fury window burst, especially at higher haste levels; Wildfire Infusion gameplay; a higher level of focus management that BM and MM don't really have; the ability to do really good damage from range for a melee spec.
    The fact so many people dismiss this, makes me question if they even played it properly at end game content (raids / high M+ / arena PvP).

    However the spec needs attention to make it good, blizzard designed something and now sort of refuse to give it attention.
    The spec also lacks direction, is this trying to be a DoT spec or is this a high damage brawler; it seems blizzard isn't quite sure either.

    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    *looks at the classic hunter survival talent tree*

    Seems to me they always wanted survival to be melee but just couldn't figure out how they wanted it to go so they left it a hodgepodge until Wrath, gave up entirely Cata thru WoD, then finally figured out something they liked that was workable.
    Oh no definitely not.
    Classic SV wasn't to make you a full on melee hunter; that wasn't even the intent.
    The tree was designed to increase your surivability overal (more parry chance / deterrence / survivalist for +10% HP) + make you more dangerous when you had to go into melee.

    Basically instead of increasing your strong points (ranged damage), survival patched some of the weak points (deadzone kiting / melee range damage).
    Without SV you just wanted to kite and stay as far away as possible, with SV you could actually run through your deadzone into melee and be dangerous, because of mongoose bite / counter attack / improved wingclip. And if you got the snare off, you could run away again and restart ranged damage.

    Lightning Reflexes was the prime reason people went deep into SV anyway, the +15% agility pretty much saved the tree as it could recover some of the damage you would lose by not going into BM / MM.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maxilian View Post
    By the way, i wonder, why are people so angry about the new Survival hunter? I mean... in general, Survival have always been the least popular option, it may have had a path or 2 where it shinned, but... it wasn't really popular either.
    This is not even remotely true.
    SV has always been one of the most popular specs outside of Legion/BFA.

  20. #60
    Since I doubt Blizzard will ever acknowledge their mistake and make survival ranged again, I only see one option to give it some more popularity:
    Change SV to be a tanking spec!
    It's in the name already, no renaming needed.
    Use the aspects as tanking CDs, get some interaction with the pet - have it fetch adds, a CD to transfer aggro to/from it, stuff like that - and I'm sure it would be played significantly more than today.

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