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  1. #121
    You don't see them cause it was a dumb decision to add a melee spec to a pure dps ranged class. That's not why people roll hunter.

    With that said, you do see some of them in the arena championship. So, it's not like they don't exist. Just, no one asked for that. Well, except for those vanilla fans that kept saying they missed raptor strike and probably don't play it anyways.
    As always, careful what you ask for, cause Blizz never does exactly what people ask.
    Last edited by Swnem; 2020-09-15 at 03:30 AM.

  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeifErikson View Post
    It's been four years since Legion revamped survival hunters, and since then I've barely seen them. I played this new spec for a while and I found it quite boring and pointless.

    What are your thoughts on this spec? Why do you think nobody plays it?
    Not even close. Demo lock is the only spec to be revamped every expansion, shadowlands being the first time it hasn't actually.

    And it's had a lot of shitty reworks...

  3. #123
    Survival is a really fun spec, it just does not belong on the Hunter class.

  4. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by Doffen View Post
    My reading comprehension is just fine. Your words however does not say what you "mean". You wrote here that the only loss, which would be change in playstyle. Which couldn't be further from the truth. That you said added falls flat when you write this after. But as always deflection is your speciality so of course you had to write a blog where you turn around and defend yourself.
    Quote-mining is honestly pathetic, by the way. Here's the full part you deceptively edited:

    Quote Originally Posted by FpicEail View Post
    Unless Readiness was absolutely crucial and essential for your enjoyment of Survival this is a positively ridiculous thing to say. WotLK Survival basically took BC Survival and added stuff to it. The only major loss from a playstyle perspective was Readiness becoming a Marksmanship talent.
    You did the same shit the last time you showed up in a Survival thread and I'm tired of it. I've honestly never talked to someone more incapable of honestly responding to my posts than you. All you do is quote-mine, twist statements, and project.

    Quote Originally Posted by Doffen View Post
    And Survival in WotLK was mind-numbening boring. Your "muh" feels does not matter for sure. I have yet to meet anyone who says that was fun except a few here on this forum. The thing you don't understand is that if something something is bad or not depends on someones opinion. How is it a deflection when my opinion is that I think WotLK surv was boring as fuck while melee Survival is fun? You don't have to answer because you are already wrong.
    If WotLK Survival was boring, BC Survival was doubly so. You keep trying to deflect away from your ridiculous claim that WotLK Survival was worse than BC Survival. It's not going to work and I will keep bringing it up each time you pretend that isn't the issue at hand here. How does adding unique abilities to a spec make it worse/more boring?

    Besides, this is a nonsense point. WotLK Survival is frequently praised as a very successful spec that was way ahead of its time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Doffen View Post
    Best iteration of explosion shot it the one that belong to MM and was fun in Legion. Your "muh immersion" waiting to shot another explosion shot after waiting an eternity for the dot to do the job was probably the least engaging and easiest playstyle we ever had in this game. Glad that shit will never be in this game ever again. If it wasn't for Survival, Hunter would be my least favorite class in BfA.
    What the fuck are you doing now. You're just shitting out your awful Hunter tastes into the thread and declaring that they're the popular opinions. Legion Explosive Shot was widely slammed as terrible design. You can go to any Hunter forum and ask what people think and you will find near universal condemnation for it.

    You're again attacking Explosive Shot in WotLK for some reason. Survival became very popular when they added it. This is because it had a great aesthetic design and mechanical synergy with the rest of the spec. Your dots had a chance to proc it as well as traps, which leant into Survival's identity as a utilitarian (see, at one point in time Blizzard actually gave a shit about the Survival spec identity). Survival was the most popular Hunter spec in early Wrath for good reason, and even when MM overtook it later on it remained a solid pick. In Burning Crusade hardly anyone gave a shit about Survival.

    However boring you think Explosive Shot was, it didn't even have that. It used the same generic Steady Shot weave as BM and MM. Maybe you're upset about WotLK changes to Survival because you loved being able to play optimally by spamming a one button macro? I'm sure that's fun for some people but others like a spec that actually has a defined gameplay style that amounts to more than one macro bound to your scroll wheel.

    If you want to make up history I'm perfectly willing to link to you material of the time, but maybe you should first go check for yourself. Go look at the old videos and online discussions. You will find that Survival was a very well received spec in the community when it was ranged, as much as you deny it here in a feeble attempt to make melee Survival look better.

    Quote Originally Posted by Doffen View Post
    Yeah, just like Survival had twice as many parses than MM in Uldir? I mean, we have discussed this before, but as always you ignore the things that you don't like. Any spec can be popular as long it performs very well. It is also proof that if a spec plays bad and also performs less than mediocre, then people won't play it. MM was heavily disliked in start of BfA(which is the worst revamp, or rework rather of a spec we have had in the game) and so people didn't play it. They rather play BM instead, and in Uldir, Survival as well.
    You want to talk about Uldir? How about we highlight the fact that Survival was still one of the very least popular specs in the game despite being one of the best damage specs? Uldir shatters your argument that SV would be popular if only it did damage. It DID do damage then and it still wasn't popular. It was barely ahead of MM and MM was practically not a functional DPS spec. Once MM was fixed it went on to be almost as popular as BM in BoD, and was even played on the world first Jaina kill. Survival, meanwhile, hasn't seen a world first since Blackhand in 2015.

    So how about you check your shit before embarrassing yourself yet again. It must be tiring being so consistently and utterly incorrect.
    Last edited by FpicEail; 2020-09-15 at 05:11 AM.

  5. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by FpicEail View Post

    The cognitive dissonance here is staggering. Yes, they did butcher Demonology. But it's still played by many today and sees plenty of play in PvE. Survival went from being one of the more popular specs to one of the very least popular specs in the game and sees almost no PvE play.
    If you look at Nyalotha statistics you will see that there are not that many more demo players than survival ones. Besides that's a tuning issue. BM is just strictly better than Survival, so nobody plays survival. Same is true for demo or sub rogues. If you look at mythic you will see even more barely played specs.
    Also survival was only popular when it was the best spec.

  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by FpicEail View Post
    I've never actually said that. That's your bad reading comprehension playing up again. What I have said is that Wrath of the Lich King added new abilities to Survival to make it have a distinct and dynamic playstyle for the first time ever, and that you somehow think this amounts to the spec becoming more boring. Now I know you will hide behind "muh personal preference", but there is no way to sympathise with the viewpoint that going from stock-standard Steady Shot weaving like the other specs to having Explosive Shot, Black Arrow, and Lock and Load (+ Serpent Sting finally being worth casting) amounts to the spec becoming "boring", "generic", or really worse in any way.

    There were two losses going from BC Survival to WotLK Survival: Readiness becoming a Marksmanship talent, and Expose Weakness (reminder: a totally passive talent) becoming a personal buff instead of a debuff against the target. Everything else was a lateral improvement/gain. Yet here you are trying to pretend it was a "failed rework": plainly a bad attempt to deflect from the real failed rework here which was turning Survival into a melee spec in Legion.



    MM has demonstrated that it can be popular, unlike melee Survival.



    This will no doubt make it a lot less popular. Now you're not only alienating the people who want to make it a ranged DPS but anyone who wants to play a DPS at all. Not to mention it doesn't remotely fit the class identity.



    There are people who want Survival to be ranged DPS, melee DPS, healer, tank, and everything in between. Every single one of them swears up and down that the name "Survival" specifically implies their vision of what the spec should be. Just because the name is up for interpretation doesn't mean your bad ideas for the spec are what fit best.



    Ah yes, because people will be lining up to play a spec that requires you to micromanage your pet including its positioning like this, right? Pet AI and control is famously popular and well-functioning in this game after all...



    Melee Survival is only better at being benched.

    P.S. Being melee != requiring critical thinking. It's not like Survival is a particularly complex spec. People don't like Survival because it's functionally useless unless it's given copious catch-ups (see: rated PvP this expansion) on account of the melee handicap.



    No, it isn't. It's best not to get your knowledge on the Hunter class from memes. Most of that pet damage requires actions from the player to make it happen. BM is actually a pretty high APM spec these days.



    Any argument that the appeal of the Hunter class is better off because of melee Survival is dead in the water when you acknowledge that melee Survival has always been extremely unpopular.



    And yet there's enough "thematic power" to make thirteen distinct varieties of swinging a stick around? Listen to yourself.



    Scarnage86's bizarro world logic:

    - MM doing physical damage while Survival does magic damage: unsolvable damage issue
    - Two ranged specs v.s. a melee spec, all with the same utility: no balance issue at all

    This is what delusion looks like.



    Believe it or not, the spec actually did happen to change quite a bit between 2010 and 2016.



    And this is a perfectly valid complaint. Having to bail out a useless spec by allowing it to keep some crucial utility hostage is a sign of lazy class design. It wouldn't need any "bail out" if it were still a ranged spec.



    It's best not to base your entire knowledge of the Hunter class on memes. Survival was always intended to play at ranged as much as possible; that was part of being a Hunter. The tree had some melee buffs because in PvP there were situations where the enemy would try to get you stuck in melee, so that helped the spec survive in those situations. That did not make it a melee spec.



    The problem is what you're describing here is more of a Warrior fantasy rather than a Hunter.



    Lol "many"



    The cognitive dissonance here is staggering. Yes, they did butcher Demonology. But it's still played by many today and sees plenty of play in PvE. Survival went from being one of the more popular specs to one of the very least popular specs in the game and sees almost no PvE play.
    On memes? Sod off, I played an old school surv hunter back in early vanilla, back when the ultimate talent was Lacerate and half your other talents were designed to improve Raptor Strike, Parry or weapon damage. Sure, it was absolutely terrible and changed in 1.7, but it was still a thing.

    Amazing sig, done by mighty Lokann

  7. #127
    Quote Originally Posted by DarkAviator View Post
    Since I doubt Blizzard will ever acknowledge their mistake and make survival ranged again, I only see one option to give it some more popularity:
    Change SV to be a tanking spec!
    It's in the name already, no renaming needed.
    Use the aspects as tanking CDs, get some interaction with the pet - have it fetch adds, a CD to transfer aggro to/from it, stuff like that - and I'm sure it would be played significantly more than today.
    That would be better than having another melee DPS spec... Still, Bliz wouldn't do this because then they'd need to have one more tanking spec to balance... That would put more pressure on them, because with it being a dps spec, who cares... hunters have 2 more dps specs.

  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by FpicEail View Post
    Any argument that the appeal of the Hunter class is better off because of melee Survival is dead in the water when you acknowledge that melee Survival has always been extremely unpopular.

    And yet there's enough "thematic power" to make thirteen distinct varieties of swinging a stick around? Listen to yourself.
    You know these aren't actually arguments? They're just very biased opinions and claims on your end.
    Personally, I disagree with your opinions on the matter. This thread itself is already evidence enough that there -is- popular support for a melee hunter spec.
    As is the data from arena's and other areas in which surv hunter is an effective choice.
    .:: Welcome to MMO-C Off-topic, where most people believe that leftism means being capitalism's HR department ::.

  9. #129
    I'm playing hunter since vanilla and I'll NEVER play that survival spec. I dont like to be melee, I didn't roll hunter to be melee, and other melees are better than survival in melee anyway

  10. #130
    Quote Originally Posted by FpicEail View Post
    I've never actually said that. That's your bad reading comprehension playing up again. What I have said is that Wrath of the Lich King added new abilities to Survival to make it have a distinct and dynamic playstyle for the first time ever, and that you somehow think this amounts to the spec becoming more boring. Now I know you will hide behind "muh personal preference", but there is no way to sympathise with the viewpoint that going from stock-standard Steady Shot weaving like the other specs to having Explosive Shot, Black Arrow, and Lock and Load (+ Serpent Sting finally being worth casting) amounts to the spec becoming "boring", "generic", or really worse in any way.

    There were two losses going from BC Survival to WotLK Survival: Readiness becoming a Marksmanship talent, and Expose Weakness (reminder: a totally passive talent) becoming a personal buff instead of a debuff against the target. Everything else was a lateral improvement/gain. Yet here you are trying to pretend it was a "failed rework": plainly a bad attempt to deflect from the real failed rework here which was turning Survival into a melee spec in Legion.



    MM has demonstrated that it can be popular, unlike melee Survival.



    This will no doubt make it a lot less popular. Now you're not only alienating the people who want to make it a ranged DPS but anyone who wants to play a DPS at all. Not to mention it doesn't remotely fit the class identity.



    There are people who want Survival to be ranged DPS, melee DPS, healer, tank, and everything in between. Every single one of them swears up and down that the name "Survival" specifically implies their vision of what the spec should be. Just because the name is up for interpretation doesn't mean your bad ideas for the spec are what fit best.



    Ah yes, because people will be lining up to play a spec that requires you to micromanage your pet including its positioning like this, right? Pet AI and control is famously popular and well-functioning in this game after all...



    Melee Survival is only better at being benched.

    P.S. Being melee != requiring critical thinking. It's not like Survival is a particularly complex spec. People don't like Survival because it's functionally useless unless it's given copious catch-ups (see: rated PvP this expansion) on account of the melee handicap.



    No, it isn't. It's best not to get your knowledge on the Hunter class from memes. Most of that pet damage requires actions from the player to make it happen. BM is actually a pretty high APM spec these days.



    Any argument that the appeal of the Hunter class is better off because of melee Survival is dead in the water when you acknowledge that melee Survival has always been extremely unpopular.



    And yet there's enough "thematic power" to make thirteen distinct varieties of swinging a stick around? Listen to yourself.



    Scarnage86's bizarro world logic:

    - MM doing physical damage while Survival does magic damage: unsolvable damage issue
    - Two ranged specs v.s. a melee spec, all with the same utility: no balance issue at all

    This is what delusion looks like.



    Believe it or not, the spec actually did happen to change quite a bit between 2010 and 2016.



    And this is a perfectly valid complaint. Having to bail out a useless spec by allowing it to keep some crucial utility hostage is a sign of lazy class design. It wouldn't need any "bail out" if it were still a ranged spec.



    It's best not to base your entire knowledge of the Hunter class on memes. Survival was always intended to play at ranged as much as possible; that was part of being a Hunter. The tree had some melee buffs because in PvP there were situations where the enemy would try to get you stuck in melee, so that helped the spec survive in those situations. That did not make it a melee spec.



    The problem is what you're describing here is more of a Warrior fantasy rather than a Hunter.



    Lol "many"



    The cognitive dissonance here is staggering. Yes, they did butcher Demonology. But it's still played by many today and sees plenty of play in PvE. Survival went from being one of the more popular specs to one of the very least popular specs in the game and sees almost no PvE play.
    Yes, MM has shown that it can be popular...when it does what current BM is doing. Basically being the #1 dps spec of the class by a large amount.
    No idea if SV becoming a tank spec would be more popular or not. I can actually see it gaining more use as it would let a Class that normally has 20-50 minute queue times damn near instant queue times for dungeon and raid finder, and even m+ keys (with difficulty dependent on how it is tuned). I don’t know if it would be popular, but like I stated I can see it being utilized.
    Pet AI would definitely be an issue. Only realistic way I could see Blizzard addressing it would be having it be at a static point next to the Hunter and just utilize some thematic abilities. Have a taunt effect that when the Hunter uses taunt it’s actually a command to have the pet taunt the add to the Hunter, and even give an AoE taunt thru talent with the pet letting out a Howl that attracts all nearby targets. Pet pathing and AI can easily be fixed by just having it be a static fixture next to the Hunter...until you get to a cliff and then grats, same old shit.
    So far there is enough distinction for 13 varieties of swinging a stick as most people aren’t stating Hunter plays just like Warrior, or DK plays just like Paladin, or Paladin plays like Guardian/Feral Druid, or any variation of.
    Could describe Hunter or Warrior, or other classes. Depends on the setting and themes. Ranged Hunter it would not describe. Melee Hunter using their skills learned in the wilderness from the bond with their companions to attack swiftly and deftly from prey to prey can definitely be thematic of the spec. Warrior thematically would be more taking on all comers on equal ground and overpowering them thru weapon finesse and rage fueled power as they brutally hack thru their enemies.
    Many depends on your definition I guess. I would count 643 people (going from parses over 2 weeks) as many people. I wouldn’t say most people, but I’d still count that as many.
    Last edited by Eapoe; 2020-09-15 at 07:03 AM.

  11. #131
    I really really hate playing a Hunter, like really. I think its Just boring..all 3 specs at the moment. But, in Legion, Surv was awesome! I had soo much fun with that spec, getting the mage tower Done, it was awesome. Then BFA came, they Ruined my druid so i wanted to main a survival Hunter. Bad choice..in 2 weeks i was Done with the insults, getting kicked from dungeons without even being started. So i mained a shaman, tot ma shiit done, but ive never played An expansion this few.
    I trully dont get the nonsense about "gief Surv ranger back!!"...why? All Hunter specs weer the exact same...only black Arrow got called explosive Arrow. So I tuin survival is one of the best reworks they made! Just the Hunters goijg full autist mode when you bring this up.

  12. #132
    Quote Originally Posted by LordVargK View Post
    If you look at Nyalotha statistics you will see that there are not that many more demo players than survival ones.
    That's only this tier. If you look back to the start of Legion, Demo is consistently ahead of Survival and sometimes doing really well. What characterises Survival's unpopularity is it's consistency.

    Quote Originally Posted by LordVargK View Post
    Besides that's a tuning issue. BM is just strictly better than Survival, so nobody plays survival. Same is true for demo or sub rogues. If you look at mythic you will see even more barely played specs.
    It's not just a tuning issue. That's extremely naive. There have been tiers where Survival does very well and it still remains one of the least-played specs. Blizzard themselves acknowledges that not many Hunters want to play a melee spec.

    Quote Originally Posted by LordVargK View Post
    Also survival was only popular when it was the best spec.
    Survival was routinely popular even when it wasn't the best. An example of this is Siege of Orgrimmar where it had lower performance than BM but was still more popular.

    Besides, even if this were true, at least it would mean ranged Survival was sometimes popular, unlike melee Survival.

    I would appreciate it if you stopped dropping uninformed opinions in the thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Venziir View Post
    On memes? Sod off, I played an old school surv hunter back in early vanilla, back when the ultimate talent was Lacerate and half your other talents were designed to improve Raptor Strike, Parry or weapon damage. Sure, it was absolutely terrible and changed in 1.7, but it was still a thing.
    Cool story. You're either misremembering or lying. Hunters were meant to use their ranged toolkit as much as possible. Yes, even as Survival with melee-buffing talents. Believe it or not, specs in Vanilla did not function as they do now as distinct entities that define your playstyle and gameplay. Survival buffing melee spells did not mean you no longer used your ranged weapon and abilities that came with the class. The melee buffs of Survival were for situational usage. A Hunter primarily sticking to melee is just not something Blizzard envisioned for the class.

    https://i.imgur.com/kBVr5Uc.png

    There's the manual page from 2004. Read the very first sentence, why don't you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arch-Angel of Riots View Post
    You know these aren't actually arguments? They're just very biased opinions and claims on your end.
    Personally, I disagree with your opinions on the matter. This thread itself is already evidence enough that there -is- popular support for a melee hunter spec.
    As is the data from arena's and other areas in which surv hunter is an effective choice.
    Uh, no, they aren't. Go look at any PvE representation statistics. Survival is consistently one of the least played specs. If you want to talk about PvP, Survival coasts on the overnerfing of BM and MM. Besides, very few people participate in rated PvP compared to raiding to begin with, and Survival's representation is still far behind what it was when the spec was ranged.

    Using this thread to justify your misinformed belief that Survival is a popular spec is spectacularly absurd. And then you have the gall to turn around and say I'm the one using only "very biased opinions".

    Quote Originally Posted by Eapoe View Post
    Yes, MM has shown that it can be popular...when it does what current BM is doing.
    MM was not the #1 DPS by a large amount in BoD but it still saw almost just as much participation as BM. All it takes is for MM to be competitive and it sees play. Then you have Survival, which is perpetually underplayed even when it is ahead of the other Hunter specs (see: Uldir).

    Did not read the rest of your post after this sentence because I can safely assume it's nonsense as is usual from you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wedny22 View Post
    I really really hate playing a Hunter, like really. I think its Just boring..all 3 specs at the moment. But, in Legion, Surv was awesome! I had soo much fun with that spec, getting the mage tower Done, it was awesome. Then BFA came, they Ruined my druid so i wanted to main a survival Hunter. Bad choice..in 2 weeks i was Done with the insults, getting kicked from dungeons without even being started. So i mained a shaman, tot ma shiit done, but ive never played An expansion this few.
    I trully dont get the nonsense about "gief Surv ranger back!!"...why? All Hunter specs weer the exact same...only black Arrow got called explosive Arrow. So I tuin survival is one of the best reworks they made! Just the Hunters goijg full autist mode when you bring this up.
    You hate the class, only like the iteration of the spec that was least adhering to the class identity out of all of them, and then wonder why Hunters want something different to what you want to play in the class. You really are something else.

    P.S. Black Arrow and Explosive Shot were both ranged Survival abilities. Thanks for including this nugget of maximum cluelessness.

  13. #133
    Quote Originally Posted by FpicEail View Post
    That's only this tier. If you look back to the start of Legion, Demo is consistently ahead of Survival and sometimes doing really well. What characterises Survival's unpopularity is it's consistency.



    It's not just a tuning issue. That's extremely naive. There have been tiers where Survival does very well and it still remains one of the least-played specs. Blizzard themselves acknowledges that not many Hunters want to play a melee spec.



    Survival was routinely popular even when it wasn't the best. An example of this is Siege of Orgrimmar where it had lower performance than BM but was still more popular.

    Besides, even if this were true, at least it would mean ranged Survival was sometimes popular, unlike melee Survival.

    I would appreciate it if you stopped dropping uninformed opinions in the thread.



    Cool story. You're either misremembering or lying. Hunters were meant to use their ranged toolkit as much as possible. Yes, even as Survival with melee-buffing talents. Believe it or not, specs in Vanilla did not function as they do now as distinct entities that define your playstyle and gameplay. Survival buffing melee spells did not mean you no longer used your ranged weapon and abilities that came with the class. The melee buffs of Survival were for situational usage. A Hunter primarily sticking to melee is just not something Blizzard envisioned for the class.

    https://i.imgur.com/kBVr5Uc.png

    There's the manual page from 2004. Read the very first sentence, why don't you.



    Uh, no, they aren't. Go look at any PvE representation statistics. Survival is consistently one of the least played specs. If you want to talk about PvP, Survival coasts on the overnerfing of BM and MM. Besides, very few people participate in rated PvP compared to raiding to begin with, and Survival's representation is still far behind what it was when the spec was ranged.

    Using this thread to justify your misinformed belief that Survival is a popular spec is spectacularly absurd. And then you have the gall to turn around and say I'm the one using only "very biased opinions".



    MM was not the #1 DPS by a large amount in BoD but it still saw almost just as much participation as BM. All it takes is for MM to be competitive and it sees play. Then you have Survival, which is perpetually underplayed even when it is ahead of the other Hunter specs (see: Uldir).

    Did not read the rest of your post after this sentence because I can safely assume it's nonsense as is usual from you.



    You hate the class, only like the iteration of the spec that was least adhering to the class identity out of all of them, and then wonder why Hunters want something different to what you want to play in the class. You really are something else.

    P.S. Black Arrow and Explosive Shot were both ranged Survival abilities. Thanks for including this nugget of maximum cluelessness.
    Ummm, have you looked at those fights? Certain ones have MM 1-5k ahead of BM. That’s actually a pretty big variance.
    Due to azerite people also didn’t swap as much. The very next .5 patch also shows MM have a pretty steep drop off.
    Last edited by Eapoe; 2020-09-15 at 11:09 AM.

  14. #134
    Quote Originally Posted by LeifErikson View Post
    It's been four years since Legion revamped survival hunters, and since then I've barely seen them. I played this new spec for a while and I found it quite boring and pointless.

    What are your thoughts on this spec? Why do you think nobody plays it?
    I really like the idea of a melee spec with a pet. Its fitting for hunters and makes sense.

    However the spec itself:
    - Has either boring or (depending on talents) overly clunky rotation
    - Never did much damage
    - Feels like a really weird mixup between range and melee that has some weird situation where you use range abilities in melee combat (where they usually would have disadvantage)
    - Mostly has boring or bad animations

    In addition to that the game always favors ranged classes., so most people tend to pick those except when there is a really good reason to pick a specific melee spec (e.g. a Havoc DH for M+). Survival neither does strong damage nor does it provide something unique.

  15. #135
    Quote Originally Posted by FpicEail View Post
    You want to talk about Uldir? How about we highlight the fact that Survival was still one of the very least popular specs in the game despite being one of the best damage specs? Uldir shatters your argument that SV would be popular if only it did damage. It DID do damage then and it still wasn't popular. It was barely ahead of MM and MM was practically not a functional DPS spec. Once MM was fixed it went on to be almost as popular as BM in BoD, and was even played on the world first Jaina kill. Survival, meanwhile, hasn't seen a world first since Blackhand in 2015.

    So how about you check your shit before embarrassing yourself yet again. It must be tiring being so consistently and utterly incorrect.
    It was more popular than MM was during Uldir, which was the point. Talking about embarrassment. You talk to others about reading comprehension when you can't even follow what we talk about.

    Must be tiring indeed. The rest of your blog is just someone who is insulted that his favorite spec will never be seen in the game again with fact twists and "muh" feels. I don't have time wasting my time with you more than this.
    - Enough prattling. Let them come. We shall grind their bones to dust.

  16. #136
    Quote Originally Posted by Doffen View Post
    It was more popular than MM was during Uldir, which was the point. Talking about embarrassment. You talk to others about reading comprehension when you can't even follow what we talk about.
    Only because MM was barely functional as an independent DPS spec.

    You're trying to sell SV beating out MM in one tier as "SV was popular!!", when what really happened was MM cratered in popularity while SV slightly increased. Once MM was functional again, it was back up well above Survival. Look at the actual parse count of Survival in that tier. It's pitiful. It was still one of the least-played specs, despite being one of the very best in terms of numerical performance (particularly in single target). Whenever ranged SV had numerical performance like that it contended for most popular spec in the game. Melee Survival can't make it out of the bottom 5.

    Survival also has twice the parses of Subtlety right now in Ny'alotha. That doesn't tell you that Survival is extremely popular; it tells you that Subtlety is bad enough to be less popular than Survival.

    So, basically, you're trying and failing to be manipulative again. This is a well-established pattern from you.

    P.S. You couldn't respond to the rest of the post because you have no effective counter arguments. That's what you really mean when you storm off with "I just don't have time for this".

  17. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by FpicEail View Post
    That's only this tier. If you look back to the start of Legion, Demo is consistently ahead of Survival and sometimes doing really well. What characterises Survival's unpopularity is it's consistency.



    It's not just a tuning issue. That's extremely naive. There have been tiers where Survival does very well and it still remains one of the least-played specs. Blizzard themselves acknowledges that not many Hunters want to play a melee spec.



    Survival was routinely popular even when it wasn't the best. An example of this is Siege of Orgrimmar where it had lower performance than BM but was still more popular.

    Besides, even if this were true, at least it would mean ranged Survival was sometimes popular, unlike melee Survival.

    I would appreciate it if you stopped dropping uninformed opinions in the thread.



    Cool story. You're either misremembering or lying. Hunters were meant to use their ranged toolkit as much as possible. Yes, even as Survival with melee-buffing talents. Believe it or not, specs in Vanilla did not function as they do now as distinct entities that define your playstyle and gameplay. Survival buffing melee spells did not mean you no longer used your ranged weapon and abilities that came with the class. The melee buffs of Survival were for situational usage. A Hunter primarily sticking to melee is just not something Blizzard envisioned for the class.

    https://i.imgur.com/kBVr5Uc.png

    There's the manual page from 2004. Read the very first sentence, why don't you.




    Uh, no, they aren't. Go look at any PvE representation statistics. Survival is consistently one of the least played specs. If you want to talk about PvP, Survival coasts on the overnerfing of BM and MM. Besides, very few people participate in rated PvP compared to raiding to begin with, and Survival's representation is still far behind what it was when the spec was ranged.

    Using this thread to justify your misinformed belief that Survival is a popular spec is spectacularly absurd. And then you have the gall to turn around and say I'm the one using only "very biased opinions".



    MM was not the #1 DPS by a large amount in BoD but it still saw almost just as much participation as BM. All it takes is for MM to be competitive and it sees play. Then you have Survival, which is perpetually underplayed even when it is ahead of the other Hunter specs (see: Uldir).

    Did not read the rest of your post after this sentence because I can safely assume it's nonsense as is usual from you.



    You hate the class, only like the iteration of the spec that was least adhering to the class identity out of all of them, and then wonder why Hunters want something different to what you want to play in the class. You really are something else.

    P.S. Black Arrow and Explosive Shot were both ranged Survival abilities. Thanks for including this nugget of maximum cluelessness.
    How about, instead of being overly salty and passive aggresive, you actually read what I wrote? I never said surv wasn't also using ranged weapons. I said that it had melee abilities and that it's top tier talent was, indeed, a terrible melee ability. Out of all three specs; surv was the one you went with *if* you wanted to melee. Also, the Vanilla manual had a lot of faults, like saying dwarves could be mages so, not exactly the best source to qoute. Besides, it even says that hunters rely "primarily" on ranged weapons, not "solely".

    Amazing sig, done by mighty Lokann

  18. #138
    Quote Originally Posted by FpicEail View Post
    So, basically, you're trying and failing to be manipulative again. This is a well-established pattern from you.

    P.S. You couldn't respond to the rest of the post because you have no effective counter arguments. That's what you really mean when you storm off with "I just don't have time for this".
    Only because MM was barely functional as an independent DPS spec.
    You could have stopped right there on that last sentence I now quoted and I might have discussed with you. But you just have to bring on some low ball insult just because you are so insecure about your arguments.

    I couldn't respond to the post because I read one insult and then didn't read anything else. So hard to counter any "argument" (read: insults and probably some twists of facts and some personal feelings) when I didn't even bother to read them. I have discussed with you before and I know there is no point.

    Just answering you here since you think it's because I can't come with effective arguments. I have done already and did before. Just because you get the last word doesn't mean that you "won" the discussion. You lost because people can't be arsed discussing with you with this disgrace of a behavior.

    You are a waste of time for me because you are a horrible human being that I can't be bothered using my time with. I rather discuss with people who can disagree and still be polite.
    - Enough prattling. Let them come. We shall grind their bones to dust.

  19. #139
    Quote Originally Posted by FpicEail View Post
    Nope, that's just your poor understanding of the intent of the Survival tree in Classic and BC. It was meant to be the tree that added versatility particularly in PvP. Part of that was buffing melee attacks because in PvP you would undoubtedly get caught within the minimum range quite often. It was still intended to be played primarily at ranged, however. That came with the class, and it didn't take long for Survival to have its own ranged-centric talents.

    https://i.imgur.com/kBVr5Uc.png

    This is the original WoW manual page from 2004. It states the intent of the class pretty clearly.
    Thank you, o clairvoyant one, for telling us all what Blizzard developers were thinking nearly 20 years. I love how your "evidence" comes apart in the very first sentence. "Primarily a ranged attacker."

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by paragraphgorilla View Post
    I will never understand this argument.. Why do I not have a wand spec for mages then?
    Because they had an entire tree dedicated to melee dps?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Nythiz View Post
    Oh no definitely not.
    Classic SV wasn't to make you a full on melee hunter; that wasn't even the intent.
    You're the second person in this thread who seems to have the ability to read the minds of people from the past. I love being told "Blizzard gave us a melee dps tree, but they didn't intend us to be melee dps because I said so."
    The most difficult thing for people to do is objectively look at something they don't like and be able to accept that it is not bad, that other people like it, and if it was changed to the way they'd like it that other people would not like it and want it changed back. The second most is to receive something they didn't want or ask for and be grateful for it, not immediately demand what they wanted instead.

  20. #140
    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    Thank you, o clairvoyant one, for telling us all what Blizzard developers were thinking nearly 20 years. I love how your "evidence" comes apart in the very first sentence. "Primarily a ranged attacker."

    - - - Updated - - -



    Because they had an entire tree dedicated to melee dps?

    - - - Updated - - -



    You're the second person in this thread who seems to have the ability to read the minds of people from the past. I love being told "Blizzard gave us a melee dps tree, but they didn't intend us to be melee dps because I said so."
    This argument really doesn't make sense when there are three talents in the entire survival tree that do anything with melee. Two of them is a defensive spell that only have uses in pvp. Besides that, there is NO additional melee benefits other than a flat 20% crit chance to two melee spells. The rest of the tree deals with traps, the 31 point talent is a ranged spell, and the offensive talents also boost ranged spells.

    Melee survival was a thing in vanilla beta and very early vanilla. It was quickly changed and the talents revamped to what they are on classic.
    Last edited by Leakage; 2020-09-16 at 03:08 AM.

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