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  1. #161
    Stealthed Defender unbound's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeifErikson View Post
    It's been four years since Legion revamped survival hunters, and since then I've barely seen them. I played this new spec for a while and I found it quite boring and pointless.

    What are your thoughts on this spec? Why do you think nobody plays it?
    One of the biggest problems with the spec is that Blizz has added 5 melee specs since launch (arguably 6 if you include making Feral Druid a specific melee spec). Blizz has added no ranged spec to the game. There was legitimately zero reason to convert Surv Hunter to melee. In fact, there were plenty of reasons not to convert Surv Hunter to melee since we now have more melee specs than ranged...leaving Surv Hunter as ranged would actually be balanced.

    Next, it was an underpower spec. Even when played completely correctly (and I literally lol'd at people saying there is a high skill cap for the spec...it is average at best), it fell short of so many other specs. It didn't help that it was done at a time that DH were released, which was a massively OP spec with an actually low skill cap (still is). So, for a great number of people, what was the point of doing it? And for a significant number of people who loved their Survival Hunter, Blizz took something away completely.

    As for why nobody plays it, I think the answer is pretty simple:
    - It is low power, so FOTM players won't select it
    - It doesn't fit with the class fantasy (hunters are ranged), so RPG players won't select it

  2. #162
    I for one really loved Survival from TBC to MoP. Bring back the ranged Survival please.

    On another note: look at the role representation that we have at the moment in the game.

    Tank (6): Brewmaster Monk, Blood DK, Guardian Druid, Protection Paladin, Protection Warrior & Vengeance DH

    Healer (6): Resto Druid, Resto Shaman, Disc Priest, Holy Priest, Holy Paladin, Mistweaver Monk

    Melee (13): Frost DK, Unholy DK, Outlaw Rogue, Subtlety Rogue, Assassination Rogue, Feral Druid, Havoc DH, Survival Hunter, Windwalker Monk, Retribution Paladin, Arms Warrior, Fury Warrior, Enhancement Shaman

    Ranged (11): BM Hunter, MM Hunter, Balance Druid, Shadow Priest, Fire Mage, Arcane Mage, Frost Mage, Demo Warlock, Aff Warlock, Destro Warlock, Elemental Shaman

    So if Blizzard changed Survival back to ranged, we'd be at 12 ranged specs and on par with melee specs. Another food for thought is, Blizzard has not done a new ranged spec since the original WoW came out back in 2004. So I'm not really optimistic that they will be doing this unfortunately.

  3. #163
    Quote Originally Posted by Rullis View Post
    Excuse you? I played solely survival until BM was so much better DPS-wise. Then it became a melee spec and I've never touched it.
    I meant after it became a melee spec. Survival was very popular in WoD.

  4. #164
    I think legion survival had good bones to it, just needed some mechanical fixes and adjustments.

    Bfa took everything that worked and dumped it in the trash, creating an empty husk. Essences made the spec work at the cost of any interesting mechanics.

  5. #165
    I really hated Legion survival, and thought the BFA changes were fantastic. It's a really great spec now. Pity it's melee so I'll never, ever, actually play it.

  6. #166
    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post

    You're the second person in this thread who seems to have the ability to read the minds of people from the past. I love being told "Blizzard gave us a melee dps tree, but they didn't intend us to be melee dps because I said so."
    Well yes I can, because its my own mind !
    I played survival hunter during Vanilla.

    But hey, you keep believing that SV tree made you a melee hunter, more power to you.
    If you think that SV tree was a melee dps tree, maybe you should take another hard look at the actual talents.
    There were hardly any talents that directly boosted melee damage, instead they boosted survivability and gave you tools to kite/snare.

    One of the main PvP lines was 21 points in MM for Scatter Shot and 30 points in SV for Lightning reflexes. It gave you strong ranged sustained damage and when in melee you could do 2-3 strong attacks which would snare/root the opponent so you could get back into ranged.
    SV was still a ranged spec, just with respectable melee damage vs melee classes when they used their tools to get in your melee range.

    NOTE: Unless you're of course talking about the first year of SV before the hunter patch, but I don't see how that was even a thing. The fact it was changed so fast after release shows that the developpers didn't like that branch of hunter.
    There was a reason that was changed. Even more so than SV in Legion/BFA; nobody I know played SV in pre-1.7 and enjoyed it. I remember a ton of forum posts on how badly people wanted SV changed back then.
    Last edited by Nythiz; 2020-09-16 at 09:44 PM.

  7. #167
    Quote Originally Posted by LeifErikson View Post
    It's been four years since Legion revamped survival hunters, and since then I've barely seen them. I played this new spec for a while and I found it quite boring and pointless.

    What are your thoughts on this spec? Why do you think nobody plays it?
    Let me touch on quoted parts and then ill go into reasons.
    In advance, i dont think anything bad, trying to pick a fight here, trash someone or anything else. Im just trying to be constructive, but also add my opinion on two comments that poked my eye the most.

    Ill start by saying - i really dont care about "ranged vs melee" thing that happens most often when Survival is mentioned, IT WAS ranged, NOW IS melee and i work with that. I see both sides and acknowledge the reasons for both sides, i just dont care much about them as i play what i enjoy.

    Firstly, concept of "fun" is subjective differs from person to person and what they enjoy.
    You, for example, maybe find fun smacking whole expansion 4 button rotation as Fury, DH or BM Hunter and doing "optimal damage," Dotting mobs and slowly burning them down as Warlock or sPriest or simply trashing them full on as Mage or Destro. You maybe have preferred playstyle between ranged and melee, i however, find fun specs with which i need to think in advance, out of the box, pay attention on whats going on with the boss and act accordingly.

    When did you play it? What build? Content? Lack of information there.
    Legion Survival quite differs from BfA version. Tho their core is similar, Legion Survival had way too many "spinning plates" in its rotation to make it fun or accessible for most people and my guildies used to tell me that im masochist for playing Survival trough Legion.
    BfA version is more streamlined version.
    Its also ONLY spec in the game which ATM has 3 valuable builds, all similar in core but revolve around different playstyle. I like having option of switching them around as i feel or its needed.

    i wouldnt go that far and say "nobody plays it."
    If your merit is warcraftlogs then there's even less Sub rogues than SV hunters and just barely more Feral druids.
    People play it, usually in "friendly environment" of their guild or friends party since its hard (but not impossible) to find any PUG for M+ or Heroic/Mythic.
    Ill touch bases on why below.

    Quote Originally Posted by unbound View Post
    --snip--

    Next, it was an underpower spec. Even when played completely correctly (and I literally lol'd at people saying there is a high skill cap for the spec...it is average at best), it fell short of so many other specs. It didn't help that it was done at a time that DH were released, which was a massively OP spec with an actually low skill cap (still is).

    --snip--
    Tho i agree with you of on being under-performing, falling short compared to other melee slots and being added with faceroll OP spec i wouldn't say its complexity is "average at best".
    As with author, i have no ill intentions nor im picking fight.
    Im not sure what your merit is, when have you played it or how much competitive it was but i (and people at Trueshot Lodge who play Survival) deffo dont think that its skill cap is laughable or "average at best."

    Putting on side its under-performing due to lackluster number tuning one of the reasons behind its complexity (and mine fun actually) is that it has extremely selfish rotation, much like Breath DK or Assa Rogue, and you have to play it that way.
    Your main rotation revolves around Mongoose Fury buff windows which increase damage of Mongoose Bite 15% per stack, 5 stacks total for 14sec.

    Since core mechanic revolves around buffing your main spender trough itself and Survivals CD on top of that, burning as much resources as you can and generating them in between you have to think at least one step in advance when you will do what.
    In one of the builds, Survivals CD can be extended up to 1min, maybe even more now, from 20sec of its base duration if you are attacking your target with primary spender. In other you have to play around Bombs with RNG debuffs and adjust your rotation accordingly.
    Otherwise, when you have to get out of melee when you have opened Mongoose window, or your CD window - costs you a lot of DPS.
    Its not extremely punishing, but its quite unforgiving compared to other melees as not only that you are wasting your buffed damage windows, but you have to start building them again most probably.

    As with author, i guess its just down to what you want, what are you looking for in the spec that you play and how you see "fun" and "complexity."

    ------

    Now, to reply to the topic.
    • Main reason why Survival representation is low is because its melee spec that doesn't bring anything different to the table when compared with other two ranged counterparts on same class. Or even melees in general. And ranged is always preferred over melee.
    • People refuse/or dont play it out of spite since its melee on ranged class which they play because its ranged.
    • It requires more engagement and effort to perform close to, or on pair, with other classes. A lot of specs, melee or ranged, simply do better damage with far less engagement. Just look at Fury, Rogues, Retri, DKs. Almost all are few button specs that bring way more utility than Surival in same slot.
    • Reputation of meme spec that goes around with it. Really pointless to say how may times was i kicked without a word seconds after joining Heroic/Mythic or M+ PUGs after they noticed im Survival. Or simply being asked to switch to BM since BM is "meta" now.

    Personally i love Survival and its actually the reason why i kept playing WoW last two expansions and probably will in SL.
    I like diversity of the builds that it has, rotational changes via talents, thinking in advance and paying extra attention on stuff around me and trying to find ways to benefit the raid without sacrificing my DPS a lot. And Pet soloing most stuff.
    "Spec fantasy" has nothing to do with it honestly, its simply more fun for me than 3button rotation specs, which are now already majority of the specs.
    Last edited by Gurg; 2020-09-17 at 01:03 AM.

  8. #168
    Quote Originally Posted by F Rm View Post
    It wasn't a spec at all. Specs were introduced in Cataclysm. Anything we had before that was by design not meant to define our playstyle to any major degree. Anything we could get from talents was meant to be an addition to what the class was primarily designed to focus on by default. The default design elements, they promoted ranged gameplay over anything else and melee was only meant to be used situationally(for any case where it was harder to stay away from an enemy).

    The talents that did somehow improve melee for us, did not change the primary purpose of the class, that was ranged gameplay. And if you actually look at the talents from the original SV tree(with Lacerate at the top), it was the same thing. They did not serve to replace the default ranged abilities that were classwide.
    Should I have said "It was a melee talent tree" instead to prevent you from splitting hairs rather than address my point? And here we have yet another person who seems to have in depth knowledge of what Blizzard intended the class to be from nearly two decades ago.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Nythiz View Post
    Well yes I can, because its my own mind !
    I played survival hunter during Vanilla.

    But hey, you keep believing that SV tree made you a melee hunter, more power to you.
    If you think that SV tree was a melee dps tree, maybe you should take another hard look at the actual talents.
    There were hardly any talents that directly boosted melee damage, instead they boosted survivability and gave you tools to kite/snare.

    One of the main PvP lines was 21 points in MM for Scatter Shot and 30 points in SV for Lightning reflexes. It gave you strong ranged sustained damage and when in melee you could do 2-3 strong attacks which would snare/root the opponent so you could get back into ranged.
    SV was still a ranged spec, just with respectable melee damage vs melee classes when they used their tools to get in your melee range.

    NOTE: Unless you're of course talking about the first year of SV before the hunter patch, but I don't see how that was even a thing. The fact it was changed so fast after release shows that the developpers didn't like that branch of hunter.
    There was a reason that was changed. Even more so than SV in Legion/BFA; nobody I know played SV in pre-1.7 and enjoyed it. I remember a ton of forum posts on how badly people wanted SV changed back then.
    I was. I had to clarify for someone else that I was referring to survival as it was at launch.
    The most difficult thing for people to do is objectively look at something they don't like and be able to accept that it is not bad, that other people like it, and if it was changed to the way they'd like it that other people would not like it and want it changed back. The second most is to receive something they didn't want or ask for and be grateful for it, not immediately demand what they wanted instead.

  9. #169
    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    Should I have said "It was a melee talent tree" instead to prevent you from splitting hairs rather than address my point?
    Yeah, sure...

    You said "Survival was the melee spec". You can move the goalpost all you want, but the way in which you forumalted your previous posts, points towards you saying that Survival made you a "melee-hunter" in Vanilla, which is wrong.

    Here's some of what you said again:

    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    Because they had an entire tree dedicated to melee dps?

    - - - Updated - - -


    You're the second person in this thread who seems to have the ability to read the minds of people from the past. I love being told "Blizzard gave us a melee dps tree, but they didn't intend us to be melee dps because I said so."
    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    I'm talking about the original vanilla talent tree, the one the game was released with. It was a melee spec.
    And to repeat, no, it wasn't a melee spec. It was a talent category which contained talents that improved your melee capabilities, as well as your defensives/utility like traps, and more.
    (Yes, I'm talking about the original tree/category which included Lacerate).


    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    And here we have yet another person who seems to have in depth knowledge of what Blizzard intended the class to be from nearly two decades ago.
    Where or when did I ever claim that I know what they(the devs)intended for the class?

    I've only talked about the actual design itself. I've talked about what type of gameplay it promoted for us, being a dmg-dealing class.

    I talked about the default class mechanics and how they promoted ranged combat over anything else. That it was the intended priority whenever possible(not always due to the min attack range on ranged weapons), and how, no matter what talents we picked, the primary focus of us being a ranged class, did not change. Again, by intent of the design.

    Whether the devs wanted exactly this, we don't know. And I did not say otherwise.
    Last edited by F Rm; 2020-09-17 at 07:41 AM.

  10. #170
    I REALLY love the concept of a melee hunter, I really do. I wanted this since I first remembered playing rexxar on wc3, however, that IS the issue.
    Beast mastery thematically would be a much superior choice. It just feels right, fighting alongside your pets. Exactly, ALONGSIDE, not sending them in and shooting from afar like a coward. BM hunters are supposed to have a deep bond with their pets, and nothing would show it more than fighting alongside them, with melee weapons. BM would've been perfect pick for that. Both MM and SV had pretty strong flavor already. BM always has been just "that one spec people use for easy leveling and having their pets do bigger numbers". Turning BM hunters melee really wouldn't impact much, it'd still be the same thing, but melee, and if anything, finally give the spec a proper identity, fantasy and gimmick. Turning SV melee needed a complete rework of the spec, and it still doesn't feel right, I really loved the good ol' explosive shot and dot shenanigans.

    God, I'm still so sad about this. What a wasted opportunity.

    Also, before someone brings up the old false claim of "sv used to be melee in vanilla!", i'd just say it in advance. No. False. SV was not a melee spec. It had some melee utility, true, but keep in mind that melee was still part of the game for hunters back then. It wasn't a "melee" spec. You'd still try to be in range as much as possible even if for some obscure reason you decided to go balls deep into that spec. It's was never a melee spec. It was "I'm not as screwed as other specs if I get caught in melee" spec.
    Last edited by Laytnor; 2020-09-17 at 07:53 PM.
    Censorship apologists deserve [REDACTED]

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