Is survival hunter the worst class revamp ever made?

[SkagenRora]

[No, outlaw is worse, way worse

Isen't outlaw like the most popular rogue spec tho?

[StillMcfuu]

I actually really like the Survival hunter revamp they did. I think the melee hunter was a big part of Lore but never really found a stride in game.

If I had to vote for worst revamp it would be the BFA incarnation of Arcane. Legion arcane was amazingly fun to play with the mana management and timing damage, etc... Then they gutted a few of the mana spender and builders and the class is just awful now. The only reason anyone even plays it is because of the corruptions breaking the spec even further into big damage.

[FrostyButt]

Neither here nor there tbh. It's a spec that a lot of people like conceptually but that could use some more polish and quality of life changes. There's a recurring vicious cycle in WoW where the specs that are a bit clunky don't get played as much, so Blizzard pays less attention to them. Three expansions of neglect later...

Two expansions so far where extremely small amount of players even play the spec. Doubt anything will change to push more people onto Survival in Shadowlands. Even if Survival had good numbers, I still think it would be the least played spec for Hunters and one of the least played spec for all classes. There are too many melee classes/specs in the game already.



Not sure how accurate this graph is, but it's hilarious.

[LordVargK]

No. The demo rework from WoD (well, truthfully from MoP) to Legion was worse.
It took one of the specs that gave the player the most control over their playstyle, while at the same time being unique, adaptive and visually appealing and transformed it into a slow, unrewarding spec that relied on an upkeep buff for it's damage. BfA fixed this to an extent, but the Demo rework remains the harshest fall of a spec to this day.

Survival is actually quite refreshing. I always found Hunters quite boring; their specs are not that different to play. (Same as rogues; one of their specs should go ranged) Survival is a good concept on paper, it's execution is just lacking. But that's something many (melee) classes have in common with it.

[F Rm]

It's been four years since Legion revamped survival hunters, and since then I've barely seen them. I played this new spec for a while and I found it quite boring and pointless.

What are your thoughts on this spec? Why do you think nobody plays it?

For me personally, I'm one of those that created and play a hunter primarily because of the focus on the use of ranged weapons - and with that, ranged combat.
As long as SV remains focused on melee, I will never invest any decent amount of time into it. For me, it's simple...I don't like melee combat.

Having said that, I don't really have anything against the idea of a melee spec for the class as, it does fit the lore/history of Hunters in this game.

To put it short, it should've been added as a 4th spec from the start. It shouldn't have replaced a spec which had a established and well developed theme within the class. But since we're already past this, my vote goes towards doing to RSV what they should've done to MSV. Namingly, making RSV the 4th spec instead.

What would people want from RSV as a modern version, suited for the game today? Opinions and suggestions vary ofc.

Here you have mine(you can also find the link down in my signature below):

https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...anged-Survival


---
As for the debate that follows the OP, in short, no, SV was not a melee spec in Vanilla. It wasn't a spec at all(those were introduced in Cataclysm). Anything we had prior to then, was based on the default class mechanics which were primarily focused on the use of ranged weapons coupled with pets.


Our 3 different talent categories were Beast Mastery, Marksmanship and Survival.

Beast Mastery - contained all talents that focused on beasts/pets. Such as Aspects, pet utility and defensives(and power increases).

Marksmanship - focused solely on the use of the ranged weapon, and on ways to become better at it.

Survival - was just that, focused on increasing our survivability in combat.
The talents that focused on melee here, were situational and you never wanted(by design) to prioritize the use of melee over ranged as a hunter. They were only meant to be utilized in situations where we could not get away from an enemy, or in order to get away from an enemy.

[Unholyground]

Legion version was much better overall and they kinda shat all over it in BfA. I mained it for a good 6 months in legion, have not touched it in BfA. The one thing I did like was wildfire bomb but the rest is garbo now.

[shoegazing]

worst: debatable.

Necessary:nope.

Wanted by the class players:BIG NO. sorry new surv mains, you don't get a say.

Retarded on a fundamental level: Yep.

As a business decision it's an EPIC FAIL. Similar to what they did to the Rogue class. It just makes you wonder, "what absolute idiot signed off on this without realizing how many angry customers it would make?"

[keyone01]

Worst is debatable with contenders such as wod>legion sub, wod>legion demo and legion>bfa arcane, but definitely it's the closest we have in terms of "deleting" the spec from the game - most hunters won't play melee sv even if tuning make it fotm (uldir), utility/class toolkit enabling plays (soloing ghuun orb after change, guldan m/butchery/fight being range unfriendly) or is the go to spec in pvp due to scaling and spec exlusive utility (they would rather abandon pvp as hunter).

I mean - they changed ranged spec in class that was ranged only (apart from meme thingies) at the same time they added 3rd melee spec to the game (after dk and monk, not introducing any ranged spec in the meanwhile). This spec being the fan favourite demon hunter on top, with high mobile gameplay, double jump and strong class fantasy (stolen some from demo lock ). Meanwhile melee sv throws grenades in its face, stole bm selfheal passive to its mastery because it can't even be unique in its own way without doing so and either was bunch of buttons without real baseline synergies and/or been epithome of boring builder/spender mechanics with typical melee uptime twist (reeing everytime has to do mechanics, contrasting even more with its ranged counterparts). You really have to work at Blizzard to not see where it will go from there.

[Delano]

I notice that whether someone is a long time hunter player or newer to the class plays a big role in how people feel about melee Survival. Older hunters feel like a spec they enjoyed was deleted, newer hunters feel like the class had a new role opened up in an interesting way.

Makes sense I suppose, although as a career rogue I must say I'd love if Assassination became a ranged spec. Three DPS specs on one class that are all melee/ranged gets a bit old.

[Cattyrin]

MoP Survival was my favorite spec ever, so I'm still salty.

[threads]

I notice that whether someone is a long time hunter player or newer to the class plays a big role in how people feel about melee Survival. Older hunters feel like a spec they enjoyed was deleted, newer hunters feel like the class had a new role opened up in an interesting way.

Makes sense I suppose, although as a career rogue I must say I'd love if Assassination became a ranged spec. Three DPS specs on one class that are all melee/ranged gets a bit old.

yea just read this thread. so many randoms that "never played hunter until melee spec" and they still dont even main the class. blizz essentially removed current player's spec to attract non-hunters.

[Schizoide]

If you determine success by the number of players that choose that spec then yes, it's the worst revamp ever.

Survival is actually a really fun melee spec, and if it was a Demon Hunter spec I would play it. But on my hunter? Not a chance in hell I'm giving up on range.

[Bepples]

Yeah, just like your usual nonsense of the playstyle of surv in TBC and WotLK was essentially the same. It is absurd. Positively absurd.

I've never actually said that. That's your bad reading comprehension playing up again. What I have said is that Wrath of the Lich King added new abilities to Survival to make it have a distinct and dynamic playstyle for the first time ever, and that you somehow think this amounts to the spec becoming more boring. Now I know you will hide behind "muh personal preference", but there is no way to sympathise with the viewpoint that going from stock-standard Steady Shot weaving like the other specs to having Explosive Shot, Black Arrow, and Lock and Load (+ Serpent Sting finally being worth casting) amounts to the spec becoming "boring", "generic", or really worse in any way.

There were two losses going from BC Survival to WotLK Survival: Readiness becoming a Marksmanship talent, and Expose Weakness (reminder: a totally passive talent) becoming a personal buff instead of a debuff against the target. Everything else was a lateral improvement/gain. Yet here you are trying to pretend it was a "failed rework": plainly a bad attempt to deflect from the real failed rework here which was turning Survival into a melee spec in Legion.

If you’re going by popularity then MM is also a shitty spec that no one plays and shouldn’t exist either.

MM has demonstrated that it can be popular, unlike melee Survival.

Since I doubt Blizzard will ever acknowledge their mistake and make survival ranged again, I only see one option to give it some more popularity:
Change SV to be a tanking spec!

This will no doubt make it a lot less popular. Now you're not only alienating the people who want to make it a ranged DPS but anyone who wants to play a DPS at all. Not to mention it doesn't remotely fit the class identity.

It's in the name already, no renaming needed.

There are people who want Survival to be ranged DPS, melee DPS, healer, tank, and everything in between. Every single one of them swears up and down that the name "Survival" specifically implies their vision of what the spec should be. Just because the name is up for interpretation doesn't mean your bad ideas for the spec are what fit best.

Use the aspects as tanking CDs, get some interaction with the pet - have it fetch adds, a CD to transfer aggro to/from it, stuff like that - and I'm sure it would be played significantly more than today.

Ah yes, because people will be lining up to play a spec that requires you to micromanage your pet including its positioning like this, right? Pet AI and control is famously popular and well-functioning in this game after all...

Melee survival is superior in every way, ppl just want to faceroll on BM and dont like a spec that takes some form of actual critical thinking to play.

Melee Survival is only better at being benched.

P.S. Being melee != requiring critical thinking. It's not like Survival is a particularly complex spec. People don't like Survival because it's functionally useless unless it's given copious catch-ups (see: rated PvP this expansion) on account of the melee handicap.

Also in m+ since BM is too unfun. You hit ability and you do 20% of your dmg, 80% is passive pet dmg.

No, it isn't. It's best not to get your knowledge on the Hunter class from memes. Most of that pet damage requires actions from the player to make it happen. BM is actually a pretty high APM spec these days.

As counter-argument I'd like to offer that Monster Hunter is quite a popular franchise even among WoW players.
So people who come from that game might exactly wonder why there isn't a melee hunter alternative possible for them.

Any argument that the appeal of the Hunter class is better off because of melee Survival is dead in the water when you acknowledge that melee Survival has always been extremely unpopular.

Personally I think it's a good thing, because there isn't enough thematic power for 3 different ranged hunter specs imo, especially not when one of them already dabbled in melee attacks.

And yet there's enough "thematic power" to make thirteen distinct varieties of swinging a stick around? Listen to yourself.

To answare OP:make blizzard gain 2 fish with 1 hook (something new, fixed balancing issue)

Scarnage86's bizarro world logic:

- MM doing physical damage while Survival does magic damage: unsolvable damage issue
- Two ranged specs v.s. a melee spec, all with the same utility: no balance issue at all

This is what delusion looks like.

The only time I ever tried Survival as ranged was in WoTLk, and iirc it was basically use Black Arrow and Explosive shot on CD and... that was it. You were literally motivated to move as little as possible (Sniper Training) and pressed two buttons to do your max damage. If that hadn't changed much it's understandable why people want it back.

Believe it or not, the spec actually did happen to change quite a bit between 2010 and 2016.

Aye but the second you suggest that SV should bring some form of unique utility, you get "well its not fair that SV brings X buff and MM and BM don't".

And this is a perfectly valid complaint. Having to bail out a useless spec by allowing it to keep some crucial utility hostage is a sign of lazy class design. It wouldn't need any "bail out" if it were still a ranged spec.

Nope, Surv was orignally a melee spec in Vanilla- granted, it was absolutely terrible, but still.

It's best not to base your entire knowledge of the Hunter class on memes. Survival was always intended to play at ranged as much as possible; that was part of being a Hunter. The tree had some melee buffs because in PvP there were situations where the enemy would try to get you stuck in melee, so that helped the spec survive in those situations. That did not make it a melee spec.

I occasionally like it. Specifically when it is a fast paced murder machine that jumps from one enemy to the next, gaining more and more speed until you have left a trail of bodies in your wake.

The problem is what you're describing here is more of a Warrior fantasy rather than a Hunter.

Many people like it, so no.

Lol "many"

the Demo rework remains the harshest fall of a spec to this day.

Survival is actually quite refreshing.

The cognitive dissonance here is staggering. Yes, they did butcher Demonology. But it's still played by many today and sees plenty of play in PvE. Survival went from being one of the more popular specs to one of the very least popular specs in the game and sees almost no PvE play.

[Delano]

Yes, almost as many as the amount of people you responded to at once in that post for some reason.

[Destinas]

It was great in Legion because the artifact ability was made specifically for it, and it felt very fluid. Since that is not an option in BfA and SL, seemingly, it feels quite clunky and and it slow imo.

[Skylarking]

The only time i played the revamped survival hunter was for mage tower, and i hated every moment of it.

[Doffen]

I've never actually said that. That's your bad reading comprehension playing up again.

The only major loss from a playstyle perspective was Readiness becoming a Marksmanship talent.

My reading comprehension is just fine. Your words however does not say what you "mean". You wrote here that the only loss, which would be change in playstyle. Which couldn't be further from the truth. That you said added falls flat when you write this after. But as always deflection is your speciality so of course you had to write a blog where you turn around and defend yourself.

And Survival in WotLK was mind-numbening boring. Your "muh" feels does not matter for sure. I have yet to meet anyone who says that was fun except a few here on this forum. The thing you don't understand is that if something something is bad or not depends on someones opinion. How is it a deflection when my opinion is that I think WotLK surv was boring as fuck while melee Survival is fun? You don't have to answer because you are already wrong.

Best iteration of explosion shot it the one that belong to MM and was fun in Legion. Your "muh immersion" waiting to shot another explosion shot after waiting an eternity for the dot to do the job was probably the least engaging and easiest playstyle we ever had in this game. Glad that shit will never be in this game ever again. If it wasn't for Survival, Hunter would be my least favorite class in BfA.

MM has demonstrated that it can be popular, unlike melee Survival

Yeah, just like Survival had twice as many parses than MM in Uldir? I mean, we have discussed this before, but as always you ignore the things that you don't like. Any spec can be popular as long it performs very well. It is also proof that if a spec plays bad and also performs less than mediocre, then people won't play it. MM was heavily disliked in start of BfA(which is the worst revamp, or rework rather of a spec we have had in the game) and so people didn't play it. They rather play BM instead, and in Uldir, Survival as well.

Your statement is utterly wrong.

[Swnem]

You don't see them cause it was a dumb decision to add a melee spec to a pure dps ranged class. That's not why people roll hunter.

With that said, you do see some of them in the arena championship. So, it's not like they don't exist. Just, no one asked for that. Well, except for those vanilla fans that kept saying they missed raptor strike and probably don't play it anyways.
As always, careful what you ask for, cause Blizz never does exactly what people ask.

[FelPlague]

It's been four years since Legion revamped survival hunters, and since then I've barely seen them. I played this new spec for a while and I found it quite boring and pointless.

What are your thoughts on this spec? Why do you think nobody plays it?

Not even close. Demo lock is the only spec to be revamped every expansion, shadowlands being the first time it hasn't actually.

And it's had a lot of shitty reworks...

[DeiVias]

Survival is a really fun spec, it just does not belong on the Hunter class.