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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    You very rarely NEEDED certain classes in order to succeed. You had a better chance of success with better raid compositions, but necessity was pretty rare, aside from generally wanting one of each class in a 40 or 25 man raid. When there was actually necessity, it was often Bloodlust which is the big outlier here, or it was a certain mechanic specifically built for a class to interact with, like mage tanking in Gruul's Lair.
    Rather often... though this will be a point of contention I am sure but I would argue it has always been the case. Even now with a perfectly geared raid team some specs have less then 100 players clearing the raid on mythic and judging by the logs a lot of those are people buying a carry.

    WoW has never really been a game that allowed or rewarded experimentation at any point at the high end (for the sake of this conversation high end being full clearing or 2400+ mythic 25+). You can argue that its always been a thing in normal mode and before that the starting tiers of each expansion but to pretend it was ever the dominate playstyle of the game much less a viable one is highly suspect.

    I will freely admit I honestly don't believe this invisible minority who wants a personalized character actually exists in wow. When it did exist via raid legendary items like windfury, shadowmourne, whatever the staff, hammer, and daggers were call players who couldn't get them screamed bloody murder.

    I sympathize with players who want to stand out in the game. So far the only real way to do it is to excel at one of the hardest aspects of the game but I don't think this experiment is going to end well for anyone.

  2. #42
    Old God Grimbold21's Avatar
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    Cause we asked for this, when we asked for tools that others had.

    Here's a reductive anecdotal example. In vanilla, but primarily in TBC, I as a holy paladin had the tank healing job. That is not to say i wasn't capable of healing the raid, but paladins were ST healers. But i distinctly remember the feeling of wanting more, of wishing i had aoe healing abilities, especially when facing druids.

    Now broaden that to encompass other classes. We've all changed, in different extents, to include those former niches.

  3. #43
    I'm still a firm believer that all specs should have all the tools to be successful in all situations. If you want to call that homogenization, go for it. I don't believe it is Homogenization so long as all the classes go about it in their own specific way that meshes with the theme of their class.

    To me, it's just numbers tuning. All specs already have single target abilities. All specs already have AoE abilities. Just tune them so they're all equal and then people can play whichever class and spec they find the theme of fun without worrying that they're going to get cut out of group activities just because of the class they are. When "bring the player, not the class" was the quote of the day, it was correct. That *should* be the goal.

  4. #44
    Because of human nature: If there a class/spec that is unique and excels at something over others, then everyone and their mothers will play that class/spect for that activity and refuse to play with anyone that is not that class/spec. Yeah, thats human nature.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Ham on Rye View Post
    I'm still a firm believer that all specs should have all the tools to be successful in all situations. If you want to call that homogenization, go for it. I don't believe it is Homogenization so long as all the classes go about it in their own specific way that meshes with the theme of their class.

    To me, it's just numbers tuning. All specs already have single target abilities. All specs already have AoE abilities. Just tune them so they're all equal and then people can play whichever class and spec they find the theme of fun without worrying that they're going to get cut out of group activities just because of the class they are. When "bring the player, not the class" was the quote of the day, it was correct. That *should* be the goal.
    And i disagree entirely with everything you said. I find that to be one of the most boring "goals" to have in any game. What you are talking about is giving everyone identical abilities, and just reskin them - i would be bored in a week with this.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Yvern View Post
    My question for you guys: opinions on how to implement more uniqueness in Shadowlands for the classes?
    kekw... you have people meltdowning about covenants and bloodlust change and you want that?

    Imagine all the people who would go on fainting en masse there.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Orwell7 View Post
    -in MoP, classes were A LOT different, but everyone achieved more or less the same PERFORMANCE while doing really different rotations (and by performance I meant that every spec could do good st, aoe, cleave, etc.)
    Good one, haha

  8. #48
    One reason is it makes it much easier to form flexible raid comps. If you have 3 different classes that can, say, battle rez, then you aren't forced to take a terrible druid (the original battle rezzers) over a good DK or lock.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Whiskeyjac View Post
    Rather often... though this will be a point of contention I am sure but I would argue it has always been the case. Even now with a perfectly geared raid team some specs have less then 100 players clearing the raid on mythic and judging by the logs a lot of those are people buying a carry.

    WoW has never really been a game that allowed or rewarded experimentation at any point at the high end (for the sake of this conversation high end being full clearing or 2400+ mythic 25+). You can argue that its always been a thing in normal mode and before that the starting tiers of each expansion but to pretend it was ever the dominate playstyle of the game much less a viable one is highly suspect.

    I will freely admit I honestly don't believe this invisible minority who wants a personalized character actually exists in wow. When it did exist via raid legendary items like windfury, shadowmourne, whatever the staff, hammer, and daggers were call players who couldn't get them screamed bloody murder.

    I sympathize with players who want to stand out in the game. So far the only real way to do it is to excel at one of the hardest aspects of the game but I don't think this experiment is going to end well for anyone.
    I was referring to how the game was for the forst few expansions, not since before MoP.

    There isn’t an invisible minority. There are plenty of loud people decrying homogenization, and it’s very clear Blizzard got feedback on this, which I’m sure was informed by the success of classic.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Darsithis View Post
    One reason is it makes it much easier to form flexible raid comps. If you have 3 different classes that can, say, battle rez, then you aren't forced to take a terrible druid (the original battle rezzers) over a good DK or lock.
    To me this a good way of handling it. Make an array of tools and hand them out to each of the classes. There are very few cases where I feel any specific utility should be limited to one class, but everybody shouldn't have everything.

    There's 12 classes 3 have a brez. Mage/Shaman/Hunter have lust. The mop class buffs were similar, overlapping utility.

    As a lock player, I'd be fine if DKs or DHs could summon. Give another class or 2 a cloak of shadows equivalent.

  11. #51
    the problem rn is not that no classes offer anything unique it's that only SOME classes/specs offer unique abilities and group utility (rogue) while others don't (windwalker monk for example)

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Yvern View Post
    Excuse me for typo in title: Breng = Bring obviously.

    I would like to discuss the following evolution the game has been through: Classes do not have any unique flavour left in their toolkit, even items nowadays can do things that normally only some classes could. (a good example are the drums that give bloodlust, orginally only reserved for Shamans)

    Wouldn't it be amazing to see some unique flavour back in the shadowlands. Why won't blizzard let one class excell in some shape or form and be less good in other aspects of the game. Is it because blizzard wants to appeal to a broader audience by homonisation of skills? Maybe.

    If classes have something that distinguishes them and makes them valuable it truly feels more like an MMO to me. So Blizzard should further unprune stuff and make new unique abilities or skills for classes to make WoW feel like an true MMO again.

    How cool is it that only mages could blink, you see a mage blink and it felt special and what about a priest that has one unique very powerfull prayer of healing effect but the other classes dont, these classes can have something else awesome. Why do classes need so much overlap between them nowadays.

    My question for you guys: opinions on how to implement more uniqueness in Shadowlands for the classes?
    Take all of this and apply it to Covenants, and you see why we can't have unique classes.

    Blizzard long since moved all uniqueness to things that you can choose on an (at the very least) expansion-based interval.

    Some players might want unique class flavor, but most players don't want to be less powerful than other classes for a patch cycle much less a whole expansion or longer.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    I was referring to how the game was for the forst few expansions, not since before MoP.

    There isn’t an invisible minority. There are plenty of loud people decrying homogenization, and it’s very clear Blizzard got feedback on this, which I’m sure was informed by the success of classic.
    Homogenization is one of those things that is very subjective in that what is being homogenized matters more or less to different people.

    For instance when looking at vanilla, as a caster the biggest difference between picking my class was what color my bolt is that I'm going to be spamming 99.9% of the time in PvE content. For me, a person who puts gameplay above all else, vanilla is very homogenized.

    MoP on the other hand, had some the most unique and diverse gameplay between classes and specs I'd ever experienced. And yet in blizzards view MoP was the peak of their homogenization.

    Going into legion blizzards specific goal was to diversify more and bring back "uniqueness", and what they ended up doing to classes made them significantly more homogenized in my opinion than what we had the 2 xpacs prior.

    Also since legion they've been pushing systems that try to force people to identify as a single spec within a class, and now with shadowlands a single covenant and spec within a class. These systems pretty much demand much stronger homogenization between different specs if you're going to force a player into a single one. And yet they're trying to mix oil and water as far as designs are concerned and try and make them niche / specialized while also making players invest in a single thing.

    Hence all the feedback that has also been giving saying that there are things that need to be homogenized more.
    ..and so he left, with terrible power in shaking hands.

  14. #54
    You mean like rogue shroud that make them mandatory in m+ ? Yah no thanks

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by dcc626 View Post
    why no uniqueness? its simeple. as covenants have shown throughout the beta, people dont like seeing things they cant have. ask people who they feel about classes having unique buffs/debuffs that cant be replaced any other way.

    now imagine that each class had something unique. it just wont work with the way the game is now.
    Just gonna step in and say people don't like seeing things they can't have on their class. I don't care if a hunter has something I can't have as a warlock. I don't want another affliction warlock having something I can't have that is a 10% dps increase because of a choice I made a year earlier into the expac.

  16. #56
    You can't have uniqueness in a game with competitive aspects. As long as 5 man dungeons exist you have to ensure that any combination of tank, healer and 3 (different) DDs can clear it up to your intended level (aka 15).
    So you either have to homogenize classes or trivialize content.
    Also there are way too many specs to give each one uniqueness. Each class HAS some uniqueness though, but there is a general pool of abilities that is required for each role that every class has to have.

    Also this "less homogenization" talk gave us the classes we have now, because Blizz wanted to emphasize strengths and weaknesses. Yeah, feels not that great.

    I also don't see the merit in uniqueness. There are not that many different comabt situations in WoW. You have ST, council fights and AoE/Cleave in PvE and Duels, Arenas and BGs in PvP. Making a class good in one of these situations and mediocre to bad in the others just limits the fun you can have with that class without adding something.

    Proposal: Homogenize every class in their potential but raise the skillcap for every class. Bring the player, not the class.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Ezyah View Post
    You mean like rogue shroud that make them mandatory in m+ ? Yah no thanks
    But they are not mandatory in M+.....the new affixes make sure of that. You do realize that, right?

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    I was referring to how the game was for the forst few expansions, not since before MoP.

    There isn’t an invisible minority. There are plenty of loud people decrying homogenization, and it’s very clear Blizzard got feedback on this, which I’m sure was informed by the success of classic.
    I mean... in vanilla warriors speced from arms to fury inbetween raids constantly. In tbc you respeced for pvp and pve as well. As for harmonization (i think this is what you meant) I don't really think people want the same class and same spec to be vastly different in output because of a annoying to change talent row.

    As for hominization as a topic into itself... how does giving every class a barrier, a teleport, a dash, and a aoe attack help with making classes more unique?

    Blizzard wants characters to feel unique like how they did back when raid tiers were a thing and people sought after specific drops in a BiS list. Their solution to this in a post lfr world seems to be static choices and I doubt it will have the same effect. I don't really think players wanted a windfury handed to them at level cap... they wanted to be special and I don't think you can have that without it being tied to an achievement.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    But they are not mandatory in M+.....the new affixes make sure of that. You do realize that, right?
    See you in shadowland S1 for a reality check

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Baconeggcheese View Post
    Homogenization is one of those things that is very subjective in that what is being homogenized matters more or less to different people.

    For instance when looking at vanilla, as a caster the biggest difference between picking my class was what color my bolt is that I'm going to be spamming 99.9% of the time in PvE content. For me, a person who puts gameplay above all else, vanilla is very homogenized.

    MoP on the other hand, had some the most unique and diverse gameplay between classes and specs I'd ever experienced. And yet in blizzards view MoP was the peak of their homogenization.

    Going into legion blizzards specific goal was to diversify more and bring back "uniqueness", and what they ended up doing to classes made them significantly more homogenized in my opinion than what we had the 2 xpacs prior.

    Also since legion they've been pushing systems that try to force people to identify as a single spec within a class, and now with shadowlands a single covenant and spec within a class. These systems pretty much demand much stronger homogenization between different specs if you're going to force a player into a single one. And yet they're trying to mix oil and water as far as designs are concerned and try and make them niche / specialized while also making players invest in a single thing.

    Hence all the feedback that has also been giving saying that there are things that need to be homogenized more.
    The fact that a couple of caster classes have bad differentiation in classic doesn’t change that classes on average are still way more diverse in classic than they are now.

    Even to the extent that those caster classes are too similar, it’s really just in raids. The rest of the time they are quite different.

    I think that you are conflating “varied rotations” with “varied classes”. Yes, rotations are more varied now... although there’s an argument to be made that they’ve turned way too many specs into builder/spenders. But rotation isn’t everything. There are buffs, crowd control, situational abilities, giant cooldowns, etc..
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

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