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  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    And i disagree entirely with everything you said. I find that to be one of the most boring "goals" to have in any game. What you are talking about is giving everyone identical abilities, and just reskin them - i would be bored in a week with this.
    No, that’s exactly the opposite of what I am saying. I’m not saying to just reskin anything, but to continue to let classes do things like single target, cleave and AoE in ways that are reflective of their class or spec theme. It’s not just a reskin, but mechanics and resource differences, just like now.

    I’m saying tune the numbers so each class has a chance to compete fairly using the tools they have, instead of how it is currently where some classes have the tools but the tools are useless because the tuning is bad or the mechanics are clunky.

  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    "I don't care about it" isn't an argument.
    "I don't like it" isn't evidence of bad design.
    Nothing you've said is evidence of anything beyond your own opinions as well so I'm not sure where you're going with this.
    Mages had an exceptional amount of control in classic. That was their main niche.

    By comparison, warlocks had completely different strengths.
    What? Locks have more control than mages in classic, and if you wanted to use any class as an example as having a control niche I would've gone rogue.

    But even ignoring all that... are you implying that classes haven't had more diverse kits since classic in that regard? Or even now? Cause you'd be wrong.

    There is a reason that I am appealing to specifics and you are going "WELL I DONT LIKE IT!"
    The hand waiving combat and rotations, the core fundamental part of how you play your class / spec and really how you experience the entire game... as if that were some kind of side thing and not central to the character is just silly. I don't even know how to approach that.

    I guess it would be ideal for you though if I had to argue only specifically the things you care about in the game and not the big picture or the core fundamental parts of it that matter most to what we're talking about.
    ..and so he left, with terrible power in shaking hands.

  3. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by dcc626 View Post
    why no uniqueness? its simeple. as covenants have shown throughout the beta, people dont like seeing things they cant have. ask people who they feel about classes having unique buffs/debuffs that cant be replaced any other way.

    now imagine that each class had something unique. it just wont work with the way the game is now.
    You mean the players WoW currently have.

    And I agree. The players that left aren't coming back, and if the new generation disappears as well, then WoW is dead in the water.

  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by Baconeggcheese View Post
    Nothing you've said is evidence of anything beyond your own opinions as well so I'm not sure where you're going with this.
    What? Locks have more control than mages in classic, and if you wanted to use any class as an example as having a control niche I would've gone rogue.

    But even ignoring all that... are you implying that classes haven't had more diverse kits since classic in that regard? Or even now? Cause you'd be wrong.

    The hand waiving combat and rotations, the core fundamental part of how you play your class / spec and really how you experience the entire game... as if that were some kind of side thing and not central to the character is just silly. I don't even know how to approach that.

    I guess it would be ideal for you though if I had to argue only specifically the things you care about in the game and not the big picture or the core fundamental parts of it that matter most to what we're talking about.
    I am the one talking about the big picture. You are the one that is hyper-obsessed with rotation.

    "More diverse" is not "Less homogenized". In fact, "more diverse" has generally meant "more homogenized" in WoW.

    This is kind of a waste of time, because I've provided substantive, detailed real examples and all you've done is go "NUH UH!"
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  5. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    This is kind of a waste of time, because I've provided substantive, detailed real examples and all you've done is go "NUH UH!"
    Well we partly agree anyway...

    Hand waiving whatever you don't agree with and then giving bad examples that show you don't really know what you're talking about doesn't inspire me to put effort into this. I've given you about as much as you've given me.
    ..and so he left, with terrible power in shaking hands.

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by Baconeggcheese View Post
    Well we partly agree anyway...

    Hand waiving whatever you don't agree with and then giving bad examples that show you don't really know what you're talking about doesn't inspire me to put effort into this. I've given you about as much as you've given me.
    I didn't hand waive anything. I conceded that rotations are more complex now. To deny that would be maniacal. My contention is simply that equating rotation with gameplay and acting like nothing else in the game exists is absurd. You keep saying there's all these gigantic amazing differences between classes now yet you can't seem to point anything out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Baconeggcheese View Post
    Well we partly agree anyway...

    Hand waiving whatever you don't agree with and then giving bad examples that show you don't really know what you're talking about doesn't inspire me to put effort into this. I've given you about as much as you've given me.
    Class design is not rotation design. Class design encompasses a broad range of things, primarily centered around matching gameplay to class fantasy. What do you think the class fantasy of mage and the class fantasy of warlock is, and how the gameplay of each class differs in order to make that class fantasy feel distinct?
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    I didn't hand waive anything. I conceded that rotations are more complex now. To deny that would be maniacal. My contention is simply that equating rotation with gameplay and acting like nothing else in the game exists is absurd. You keep saying there's all these gigantic amazing differences between classes now yet you can't seem to point anything out.
    Because there's nothing different to point out? We've talked about portals and water but they both still exist and water is still relevant to healers and arcane.

    You want to talk about warlock? Healthstones still a thing, summoning stone still a thing.

    You want to talk about utility? What kind of utility at what points in the game do you want to talk about? Because there's been a shit ton of different unique things over the course of the games life that easily overshadow what existed in vanilla. Wanna go with warlock still? Unending resolve + dark pact + dark bargain hell toss soul leech in there... was an absolutely silly non-rotational utility that got used in all sorts of content with how tanky it made you. You could cheese all sorts of things. Pets still exist and still have their utility, hell even how you do your damage which you wanna ignore differed greatly from other specs / classes which is its own form of utility since you want the guy whos really good at spread cleave to do this job on this fight and the guy whos super good at priority burst to do that job on that fight etc etc which really just barely if at all exists in classic because damage is so homogenized by the lack of anything going on in classes kits.

    I dunno dude we can keep this going across multiple expansions and classes it'd literally take days but we could go through everything since you clearly haven't played the game enough to know.

    What do you think the class fantasy of mage and the class fantasy of warlock is, and how the gameplay of each class differs in order to make that class fantasy feel distinct?
    Fantasy? Mage is your typical sorcerer type using arcane magic and locks are your evil caster who sacrifices anyone or anything for power focusing on fel and void magics.

    Gameplay wise depends on the xpac or sometimes even the patch. But you're using gameplay to exclude playing the game outside of niche utility so I'm not sure how you want that question answered.
    ..and so he left, with terrible power in shaking hands.

  8. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    What kind of response is that? You suggest rogues are "mandatory", i refute that and even explained WHY that is not the case, and you just deflect and shift the goal posts? Seems to me you just have EXTREMELY limited experience in M+, or, just read something once and took it as gospel without looking into it yourself.
    They havnt been mandatory for 1 season in the whole of BFA just because of an affix entirely designed around it. Unless they do the same in shadowlands and given how the dungeon are setup, you gonna need a rogue in every group that want to push.

  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by Ezyah View Post
    They havnt been mandatory for 1 season in the whole of BFA just because of an affix entirely designed around it. Unless they do the same in shadowlands and given how the dungeon are setup, you gonna need a rogue in every group that want to push.
    There are plenty of groups doing 24/25 keys with no rogue though, how is that possible if they are mandatory? Or are you confusing "favored by some groups" with "mandatory"?

  10. #90
    Unique assets tend towards either being mandatory or useless. Bloodlust as an example became mandatory, encounters became designed around it, shamans were required, which reduced demand for other classes.
    I think players who want this really just want to be able to pick the class that gets free group invites.

  11. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by bloodmoth13 View Post
    I think players who want this really just want to be able to pick the class that gets free group invites.
    Or some people just enjoy supporting others without playing a healer, imagine that.

  12. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by Mic_128 View Post
    No, it's because they didn't want to be in a situation where they had to plan encounters around requiring certain classes.
    They are going right back to that through removing buff scrolls

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Or some people just enjoy supporting others without playing a healer, imagine that.
    Grapple weapon and MoP era ring of peace was amazing as a monk

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    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    There are plenty of groups doing 24/25 keys with no rogue though, how is that possible if they are mandatory? Or are you confusing "favored by some groups" with "mandatory"?
    Are you talking currently?? Because he covered that

    This season’s affix is one that negates the need for the rogue skip.

  13. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by razorpax View Post
    Are you talking currently?? Because he covered that

    This season’s affix is one that negates the need for the rogue skip.
    No, you can search logs by season. People these days only argue from extremes, and it does their argument no good at all. Rogues were a favored class, and always have been, right back since vanilla. UH dks were also highly sought after, as were hunters - and lets not even get started on prot wars. But this changes quite a bit based on dungeon, group makeup and playstyle etc.

    Favored and preferred class? No doubt. Mandatory? nope, not what the logs show.

  14. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by dcc626 View Post
    why no uniqueness? its simeple. as covenants have shown throughout the beta, people dont like seeing things they cant have. ask people who they feel about classes having unique buffs/debuffs that cant be replaced any other way.

    now imagine that each class had something unique. it just wont work with the way the game is now.
    Not sure why the thread went past this response. This is the answer.

  15. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by Baconeggcheese View Post
    Because there's nothing different to point out? We've talked about portals and water but they both still exist and water is still relevant to healers and arcane.

    You want to talk about warlock? Healthstones still a thing, summoning stone still a thing.
    Portals, water, healthstones, and summoning have all been homogenized. Water is rarely needed, travel is already hyperspeed, and basically everyone has self heals.

    You want to talk about utility? What kind of utility at what points in the game do you want to talk about? Because there's been a shit ton of different unique things over the course of the games life that easily overshadow what existed in vanilla. Wanna go with warlock still? Unending resolve + dark pact + dark bargain hell toss soul leech in there... was an absolutely silly non-rotational utility that got used in all sorts of content with how tanky it made you. You could cheese all sorts of things. Pets still exist and still have their utility, hell even how you do your damage which you wanna ignore differed greatly from other specs / classes which is its own form of utility since you want the guy whos really good at spread cleave to do this job on this fight and the guy whos super good at priority burst to do that job on that fight etc etc which really just barely if at all exists in classic because damage is so homogenized by the lack of anything going on in classes kits.
    Most of what you are talking about isn't utility, and Dark Pact was in Classic. You don't seem to get it, and at this point its becoming clear you don't want to engage honestly. You are talking about rotation issues and calling it utility.

    Fantasy? Mage is your typical sorcerer type using arcane magic and locks are your evil caster who sacrifices anyone or anything for power focusing on fel and void magics.

    Gameplay wise depends on the xpac or sometimes even the patch. But you're using gameplay to exclude playing the game outside of niche utility so I'm not sure how you want that question answered.
    Yeah, this is pretty weak. You are trying to lecture me on design when I've actually worked as a game designer, and this is all you can come up with?

    The mage class fantasy is based on the classic D&D wizard archetype of the learned magical scholar, frail and weak but with incredible power. It dovetails with the Gandalf character type, which is slightly different. Some of the aspects that sum this up are reality manipulation, conjuring of elemental forces, and the use of intelligence to overcome challenges. These aspects can all be seen in the classic mage. Reality manipulation is represented through portals and conjuring, which have extremely valuable utility in Classic. Elemental forces is fairly obvious. The use of intelligence is represented in a couple of different ways, such as Arcane Intellect buff and the fact that many talents are described with words like "attunement", "meditation", and "concentration", and also the ability to Detect Magioc.

    The warlock class fantasy is based on very different archetypes. Thulsa Doom from Conan is a good example, and a lot of other examples would similarly touch on necromancy. The warlock is a unique class in this regard, as the necromancer has typically been the dark caster archetype. Replacing this is demonic summoning, and some of the aspects that sum up the warlock would be manipulating souls, wielding dangerous magic, and pulling magical energy from other places, as opposed to the Mage's methodology of research and study. We can see the "dangerous magic" concept very clearly with Life Tap being the primary method of mana regeneration, and obviously Ritual of Doom falls into this as well. Trading health for mana is an incredibly large distinction between the warlock and the mage. Manipulating souls is represented through soul shards, which again draws a distinction with the mage since needing to use soul shards makes a massive mechanical difference in how the classes play. Warlocks draw their power from a physical object that takes up space, while mages are not handicapped by that. Pulling magical energy from other places is represented not only through the soul shard mechanics, but also through demonic summoning.

    Interesting points where these classes diverge thematically are soul shards, where their magic comes from (as represented through many mechanics but primarily how they recover mana), and very interestingly how they both have transportation mechanics that work very differently. While the mage manipulates reality to open portals and teleport, the warlock rips someone through the nether to themselves. Warlocks have more survivability, which plays into the distinction of mages being frail but powerful while the warlock can keep himself going through dark means such as draining life. There are so many interesting ways that the classes are made distinct in ways that make the class fantasy work, and most of those ways are either gone entirely now or they have been mitigated out of relevance through either class homogenization or world homogenization.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  16. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    and Dark Pact was in Classic.
    ... A version of dark pact existed in classic... but if you've kept up with said spell you'd know its been different spells over the years and that the classic one is a different spell than the one that's existed since MoP... That the only thing they share is the name and that you take something from your pet...

    You don't even know that much... which is not the first time in this conversation you've shown that you don't know what abilities exist... though you're the specifics guy right?... but you're supposed to know better even though you don't know basics...
    ..and so he left, with terrible power in shaking hands.

  17. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    There are plenty of groups doing 24/25 keys with no rogue though, how is that possible if they are mandatory? Or are you confusing "favored by some groups" with "mandatory"?
    again, they are doing it ON THE CURRENT SEASONAL AFFIX, which is unlikely to happen again in shadowlands.

  18. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by Ezyah View Post
    again, they are doing it ON THE CURRENT SEASONAL AFFIX, which is unlikely to happen again in shadowlands.
    Again, you can search BY SEASON.

  19. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by Ezyah View Post
    They havnt been mandatory for 1 season in the whole of BFA just because of an affix entirely designed around it. Unless they do the same in shadowlands and given how the dungeon are setup, you gonna need a rogue in every group that want to push.
    Wrong. You don't need a rogue to push high keys. Which YouTuber told you this? Rogues are not mandatory and they are not needed. Stop parroting your fav "content creator".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezyah View Post
    again, they are doing it ON THE CURRENT SEASONAL AFFIX, which is unlikely to happen again in shadowlands.
    Yelling doesn't make you right. You should look up the word mandatory. It doesn't mean what you think it means.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tyrlaan View Post
    Not sure why the thread went past this response. This is the answer.
    I guess it's because leaving a comment that really doesn't add to the thread is a lot easier to do then not leaving a comment that adds to the thread.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nizah View Post
    why so mad bro

  20. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by munkeyinorbit View Post
    Yelling doesn't make you right. You should look up the word mandatory. It doesn't mean what you think it means.
    This is the point i am trying to make - something being popular in no way makes it mandatory. Certain encounters can be made easier by using certain classes in a raid setting as well, but that doesnt make them MANDATORY. I see this all the time in casual heroic pugs where morons exclaim the group will fail because "you need X class to do Y mechanic, you wont be able to clear the raid!" which is 100% false 100% of the time.

    Its usually one of two things - they heard some clown on youtube / twitch / w.e crying about it because they cant get into a group, or, they have seen some guides for mythic were method used X class to help with Y mechanic, and every normal mode raider decides they are now "mandatory".

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