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  1. #121
    Dreadlord Krothar's Avatar
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    I legitimately remember the complaints about only Shaman getting Bloodlust, though.

    "We HAVE to bring a Shaman, its not fair. Even when they're really bad you feel like you HAVE to bring a Shaman"

    So Blizzard listened, and started giving other classes versions of class specific abilities and thus killing that bit of uniqueness.

    And Lo, the playerbase complained about classes becoming too similar.

  2. #122
    Quote Originally Posted by Solry View Post
    Not really. I have a mythic raider history. Nothing incredible, around 150+ish world guilds. And I like doing mythic raiding, and really high keys. But I also like playing enh and survival. Those two speccs and mythic\high m+ don't go together even in a guild.
    Well if you have fun with that do yu really want the dmg api etc to be removed?
    Becuase a side effect will be, that the game will get quite a bit easier.

    Also: Oh please. 150ish world guilds. Nothing incredible. Sure. That is literally top 1%. If you want to be there you have to make sacrifices.

  3. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by VinceVega View Post
    Well if you have fun with that do yu really want the dmg api etc to be removed?
    Becuase a side effect will be, that the game will get quite a bit easier.

    Also: Oh please. 150ish world guilds. Nothing incredible. Sure. That is literally top 1%. If you want to be there you have to make sacrifices.
    That is literally nothing incredible. And yes, if I have fun i'd like for it to be removed. So I can play my stupid ass enh alt as a main and not be berated for low dps compared to "real" speccs.

  4. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by Solry View Post
    That is literally nothing incredible. And yes, if I have fun i'd like for it to be removed. So I can play my stupid ass enh alt as a main and not be berated for low dps compared to "real" speccs.
    Heavens. Ok then. You are in one of the top guild in the world. There are 10th of thousands of raiding guilds. And you are in the top 150?

    If you want to play the spec that is bad for that expansion... well... sucks. But that is the way it is. But instead of you joining a guild that is maybe not top 150 to play your spec you rather fuck up the game to fit your need?

    But no matte what i think: They will NEVER change that.

  5. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by VinceVega View Post
    Heavens. Ok then. You are in one of the top guild in the world. There are 10th of thousands of raiding guilds. And you are in the top 150?

    If you want to play the spec that is bad for that expansion... well... sucks. But that is the way it is. But instead of you joining a guild that is maybe not top 150 to play your spec you rather fuck up the game to fit your need?

    But no matte what i think: They will NEVER change that.
    Who says it's only my need? You think there are no casuals being rofled upon due to their dps? Disallow the meters and boom theres less gatekeeping. More people get to play.

  6. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by Solry View Post
    Who says it's only my need? You think there are no casuals being rofled upon due to their dps? Disallow the meters and boom theres less gatekeeping. More people get to play.
    Most casuals i know actually do not care about their damage.

    Also casuals are not really being gatekeeped. They just don't really have the time/ambition/interest in doing the difficult part.

    I don't see how completly destroying every difficult part in the game to suit your need helps the game overall.
    If you don't make the game ridicoulusly easy the same casuals won't be able to get into the same dungeons. Becuase there will be something else people use as a metric to invite people. Third Party most likely. Like a raider.io on roids.
    Freaking gatekeeping myth. No one is gatekeeping anyone. They are keeping themselves back. You can play your own group. You can invest time to get better.
    If you don't you are gatekeeping yourself. You can play survival. You can form you own group. You don't have to. If you do it will take longer because you delibaertly choose a spec in a bad state. But you are the one making that choice not me.
    If you would be in my guild i would take you with me. If your guild doesn't. Well... your choice again.

    Stop trying to delete a complete part of the game many people enjoy to appease people who don't even take part in that part of the game and don't need to. There aren't even special appearances anymore in the higher diffiulties. Another tint. That is it

  7. #127
    problem with uniqueness is if its too OP or too important to counter certain bosses. if a class is really strong at a certain type of dps or ability, and a boss encounter is designed for that, all top guilds will stack those classes and trivialize a boss that lower tier guilds will struggle with. or a boss will be close to impossible without a certain class, like mythic blast furnace which was IMPOSSIBLE without a priest with mindcontrol.

    or if a boss is a dps race, but billy demonhunter doesnt show up to raid with his magic dmg debuff, the raid is cancelled because it will be a waste of time to even try.

    dont get me wrong, i like class uniqueness, but it cant be too unique, but if it is, it cant be too important.

  8. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by VinceVega View Post
    Most casuals i know actually do not care about their damage.

    Also casuals are not really being gatekeeped. They just don't really have the time/ambition/interest in doing the difficult part.

    I don't see how completly destroying every difficult part in the game to suit your need helps the game overall.
    If you don't make the game ridicoulusly easy the same casuals won't be able to get into the same dungeons. Becuase there will be something else people use as a metric to invite people. Third Party most likely. Like a raider.io on roids.
    Freaking gatekeeping myth. No one is gatekeeping anyone. They are keeping themselves back. You can play your own group. You can invest time to get better.
    If you don't you are gatekeeping yourself. You can play survival. You can form you own group. You don't have to. If you do it will take longer because you delibaertly choose a spec in a bad state. But you are the one making that choice not me.
    If you would be in my guild i would take you with me. If your guild doesn't. Well... your choice again.

    Stop trying to delete a complete part of the game many people enjoy to appease people who don't even take part in that part of the game and don't need to. There aren't even special appearances anymore in the higher diffiulties. Another tint. That is it
    I'd like to challenge you. Level up an arcane mage / surv hunter, gear it up and try to do all 20s in time while forming a stable group out of people you find in the lfg.
    Gatekeeping is a myth, you'll be able to do that in 4 days after hitting 120.

  9. #129
    Quote Originally Posted by Yvern View Post
    Excuse me for typo in title: Breng = Bring obviously.

    I would like to discuss the following evolution the game has been through: Classes do not have any unique flavour left in their toolkit, even items nowadays can do things that normally only some classes could. (a good example are the drums that give bloodlust, orginally only reserved for Shamans)

    Wouldn't it be amazing to see some unique flavour back in the shadowlands. Why won't blizzard let one class excell in some shape or form and be less good in other aspects of the game. Is it because blizzard wants to appeal to a broader audience by homonisation of skills? Maybe.

    If classes have something that distinguishes them and makes them valuable it truly feels more like an MMO to me. So Blizzard should further unprune stuff and make new unique abilities or skills for classes to make WoW feel like an true MMO again.

    How cool is it that only mages could blink, you see a mage blink and it felt special and what about a priest that has one unique very powerfull prayer of healing effect but the other classes dont, these classes can have something else awesome. Why do classes need so much overlap between them nowadays.

    My question for you guys: opinions on how to implement more uniqueness in Shadowlands for the classes?
    Exactly the same reason, why so many players are against covenants. Class choice shouldn't affect your ability to do certain content. For example class X is strong in PVP, but weak in outdoor. Or class Y is strong against single target, but has weak AOE. Class should be about fantasy and may be playstyle. Base tools should be the same.

  10. #130
    Quote Originally Posted by Yvern View Post
    Excuse me for typo in title: Breng = Bring obviously.

    I would like to discuss the following evolution the game has been through: Classes do not have any unique flavour left in their toolkit, even items nowadays can do things that normally only some classes could. (a good example are the drums that give bloodlust, orginally only reserved for Shamans)

    Wouldn't it be amazing to see some unique flavour back in the shadowlands. Why won't blizzard let one class excell in some shape or form and be less good in other aspects of the game. Is it because blizzard wants to appeal to a broader audience by homonisation of skills? Maybe.

    If classes have something that distinguishes them and makes them valuable it truly feels more like an MMO to me. So Blizzard should further unprune stuff and make new unique abilities or skills for classes to make WoW feel like an true MMO again.

    How cool is it that only mages could blink, you see a mage blink and it felt special and what about a priest that has one unique very powerfull prayer of healing effect but the other classes dont, these classes can have something else awesome. Why do classes need so much overlap between them nowadays.

    My question for you guys: opinions on how to implement more uniqueness in Shadowlands for the classes?
    I think you have it the wrong way. You need not unprune classes you need to prune classes to achieve the distinguished gameplay you want. The problem with that is, that this does not work with mythic raids or m+. With a classic-esque class design, all besides mage/wl would be entirely useless in m+.

  11. #131
    Quote Originally Posted by Solry View Post
    I'd like to challenge you. Level up an arcane mage / surv hunter, gear it up and try to do all 20s in time while forming a stable group out of people you find in the lfg.
    Gatekeeping is a myth, you'll be able to do that in 4 days after hitting 120.
    I don't think LFG is gatekeeping. People in LFG have to play with other people they don't know. So they have to go on what they see. I don't know you. You play survival. I don't take you. Unless you have like a 5000 raider.io rating.
    With that logic everything but instant invite is gatekeeping. So no Queues to queue. You put your key in and get 4 people you have to play with. Then gatekeeping is no more.
    For me there is no gatekeeping as long as i can play it with someone. I can play it with my guild.

  12. #132
    because people will complain its not balanced
    IE covanents right now

  13. #133
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    Given that mythic is a fringe activity done by less people than pet battles, maybe we shouldn’t be balancing the game around those seven people.
    You do not need to raid Mythic to care about class balance. Not wanting to be dead weight in your group is something I think all can agree is something everyone wants, no?
    Quote Originally Posted by smrund View Post
    I'm sorry sir, but we do not serve complimentary cheese when you bring your own whine.

  14. #134
    Quote Originally Posted by bloodmoth13 View Post
    With either something useless or something required.
    Most of the legacy 'support' was very poorly designed and they frankly had no vision on how it should work.
    That's a rather big statement.

    Shaman and Paladin were quite clearly designed with the support niche in mind.

  15. #135
    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    You do not need to raid Mythic to care about class balance. Not wanting to be dead weight in your group is something I think all can agree is something everyone wants, no?
    Believe it or not, no - not EVERYONE, but i would say that the majoirty of players do care to some extent about their performance. However when i used to do some LFR, over half the group didnt have any interest in their performance, only the cool loot they could get. Thats just lfr obviously, but "its just lfr" was their catch phrase.

  16. #136
    Quote Originally Posted by Azerate View Post
    Yes, that is exactly what people are arguing about.

    Uniqueness is when different classes (or covenants in this case) have exclusive abilities and perks that are only available to them. Uniqueness is inherently unbalanced and causes some options to be objectively better and objectively worse.

    People campaigning for making everything available to everyone are campaigning against that uniqueness.

    It doesn't get much simpler.
    So simple, and you don't get it, the complaints are about balance and being forced into specific convents, not that person has a different spell graphics
    Last edited by Stormspellz; 2020-09-22 at 08:09 PM.

  17. #137
    Quote Originally Posted by Yvern View Post
    Excuse me for typo in title: Breng = Bring obviously.

    I would like to discuss the following evolution the game has been through: Classes do not have any unique flavour left in their toolkit, even items nowadays can do things that normally only some classes could. (a good example are the drums that give bloodlust, orginally only reserved for Shamans)

    Wouldn't it be amazing to see some unique flavour back in the shadowlands. Why won't blizzard let one class excell in some shape or form and be less good in other aspects of the game. Is it because blizzard wants to appeal to a broader audience by homonisation of skills? Maybe.

    If classes have something that distinguishes them and makes them valuable it truly feels more like an MMO to me. So Blizzard should further unprune stuff and make new unique abilities or skills for classes to make WoW feel like an true MMO again.

    How cool is it that only mages could blink, you see a mage blink and it felt special and what about a priest that has one unique very powerfull prayer of healing effect but the other classes dont, these classes can have something else awesome. Why do classes need so much overlap between them nowadays.

    My question for you guys: opinions on how to implement more uniqueness in Shadowlands for the classes?
    Uniqueness is inherently unbalanced. The community seems to care more about a 2% difference in power than class identity which is why we are in the state we are.

  18. #138
    Becouse its done for sake of balance and compettive part of game and yes it bad they followed this path with rpg game.

  19. #139
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    That's a rather big statement.

    Shaman and Paladin were quite clearly designed with the support niche in mind.
    The support niche had no vision, it was essentially applying buffs and being useless otherwise. They couldnt make that 'role' appealing without making it required.
    There is a very good reason those failed experiments died out.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Garybear View Post
    Uniqueness is inherently unbalanced. The community seems to care more about a 2% difference in power than class identity which is why we are in the state we are.
    The problem is when unique identity infringes on power. I dont think blizz balances utility well for dps specs, but that would be a great area to explore unique identities and flavor without infringing on power (which, due to the nature of this game, shouldnt be infringed on)

    IMO hybrids should be encouraged to off heal, plate dps should be holding aggro alongside the tank, and pure dps classes should have utility explored in other areas to match.
    Expanding the power budget of utility could afford classes/specs so much more flavor that cannot be expressed through power, and that is where unique flavor can really come into play without making a spec overpowered.

  20. #140
    Quote Originally Posted by bloodmoth13 View Post
    The support niche had no vision, it was essentially applying buffs and being useless otherwise.
    Neither Ret, Enhance or Elemental were useless in TBC, they could still dish out decent damage.

    The difference is simply that they didn't have the flexibility that Mages or Warlocks had, which was trade off.

    It had a vision, that was the class identity, every Paladin or Shaman brought useful buffs to the table, regardless of spec.

    And on a personal note as Shaman player, Blizzard has still failed to implement any solid "class fantasy" for Shaman since then, hence all three spec seriously struggle the second their throughput is not borderline OP.
    Quote Originally Posted by bloodmoth13 View Post
    There is a very good reason those failed experiments died out.
    The primary reason was that Blizzard went way too far with the spec / group specific utility in TBC which then enforced a tight setup with little room for flexibility.
    Needing five Shaman on 25 People because of Bloodlust and Totems was a tad too extreme.

    That's why Blizzard made a complete 180°, not because it was fundamentally flawed.

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