Page 9 of 10 FirstFirst ...
7
8
9
10
LastLast
  1. #161
    Quote Originally Posted by WowIsDead64 View Post
    Same problem, as with covenants. Visual/RP choice shouldn't affect your ability to do content. Because your right visual/RP choice would be able to turn into wrong power choice then. For example you like your class, but it's weak in PVP. What would you do? Choose other class, you don't like? Each class should have some base toolkit. Single target damage, AOE damage, etc. Otherwise classes would be limited in content, available to them. For example class without any selfheal is very uncomfortable in solo content. Mage for example. It's ok, when you are able to nuke mobs or use your CC and mobility. But what if you can't? What if mobs are immune to CC? Blizzard love to make generic outdoor mobs to be like raid bosses so much.
    Vanilla rogues were terrible if you had more than 2 active mobs because they had no self heal or aoe, eating after each fight. Remember warriors trying to off heal with bandages? lol

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Eurhetemec View Post
    Very well said!

    Few people seem to recognise the deep long-term consequences of limiting dungeon/raid numbers, I suspect because so few people have played games where that wasn't the case.

    And yeah, as long as WoW players remain hyper-focused on individual performance, support classes will remain something that exist only in other games. A pity, because my favourite classes have mostly been support classes.

    It's worth noting that WoW's own developers were basically opposed to both support and "hybrid" classes when they played EverQuest. I always found it curious that Kaplan and so on campaigned so aggressively against them in EQ, then basically recreated a lot of the issues in early WoW, before moving to a design which made more sense for what they seemed to believe (i.e. no viable support classes, little hybrid play).
    I liked hybrid classes for their survivability but it took forever to kill anything. Think vanilla ret vs. rogue.
    Quote Originally Posted by iloveplanets View Post
    Maybe Russia can bend their requirements to be President, and Trump can be President over there. Make the Motherland Great Again.

  2. #162
    Quote Originally Posted by Yvern View Post
    Excuse me for typo in title: Breng = Bring obviously.

    I would like to discuss the following evolution the game has been through: Classes do not have any unique flavour left in their toolkit, even items nowadays can do things that normally only some classes could. (a good example are the drums that give bloodlust, orginally only reserved for Shamans)

    Wouldn't it be amazing to see some unique flavour back in the shadowlands. Why won't blizzard let one class excell in some shape or form and be less good in other aspects of the game. Is it because blizzard wants to appeal to a broader audience by homonisation of skills? Maybe.

    If classes have something that distinguishes them and makes them valuable it truly feels more like an MMO to me. So Blizzard should further unprune stuff and make new unique abilities or skills for classes to make WoW feel like an true MMO again.

    How cool is it that only mages could blink, you see a mage blink and it felt special and what about a priest that has one unique very powerfull prayer of healing effect but the other classes dont, these classes can have something else awesome. Why do classes need so much overlap between them nowadays.

    My question for you guys: opinions on how to implement more uniqueness in Shadowlands for the classes?
    Because you don't want to turn half of the classes useless outside of a niche, what you call a true mmo sounds a lot like the countless dead husks of mmos out there.
    Also there are too many classes nowadays to really get everyone something unique.

    Imo it would be far better to at least make sure every class has an own fantasy niche that forms a nice harmonious whole with their particular playstyle.
    (*glares at slam being a main spell for arms warriors*)
    This is a signature of an ailing giant, boundless in pride, wit and strength.
    Yet also as humble as health and humor permit.

    Respect all, submit to none.

  3. #163
    Quote Originally Posted by Yvern View Post
    Excuse me for typo in title: Breng = Bring obviously.

    I would like to discuss the following evolution the game has been through: Classes do not have any unique flavour left in their toolkit, even items nowadays can do things that normally only some classes could. (a good example are the drums that give bloodlust, orginally only reserved for Shamans)

    Wouldn't it be amazing to see some unique flavour back in the shadowlands. Why won't blizzard let one class excell in some shape or form and be less good in other aspects of the game. Is it because blizzard wants to appeal to a broader audience by homonisation of skills? Maybe.

    If classes have something that distinguishes them and makes them valuable it truly feels more like an MMO to me. So Blizzard should further unprune stuff and make new unique abilities or skills for classes to make WoW feel like an true MMO again.

    How cool is it that only mages could blink, you see a mage blink and it felt special and what about a priest that has one unique very powerfull prayer of healing effect but the other classes dont, these classes can have something else awesome. Why do classes need so much overlap between them nowadays.

    My question for you guys: opinions on how to implement more uniqueness in Shadowlands for the classes?
    I honestly think it's fine as it is now.
    Classes have different perks and reasons to be brought along, but being too unique, will develop into a problem again where stuff like Visions, or certain rares, fun little modes, become trivial or impossibly annoying to do.
    Having baseline perks like CC, dispells, movement, interrupts is just important to have on classes for the general enjoyment.

    Right now, alot of classes are plenty unique right now. A look at warlocks/pally/druid/shaman/dk/ect and what they all can do is pretty unique, wouldn't you say?

  4. #164
    Scarab Lord
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    In the same urn as Vol'Jin
    Posts
    4,032
    Quote Originally Posted by Krakan View Post
    Support classes don't really make sense in video games as they are either to powerful or useless and run into the healer problem when it comes to making groups.

    Either the support class provides more of a damage gain then another dps and becomes mandatory or it does less dmg then what another dps would do and becomes useless.
    This is utter gibberish, mate.

    Loads of games manage to have them just fine. Just not ones where the population is mindlessly fixated on DPS. Most support classes in other games are more about a combination of survivability, utility, and DPS gains, not just DPS gains like you seem to think. But either way, you're factually wrong - other games manage to have them and they work fine there. It's especially bizarre as fuck that you said "video games", because you're including CRPGs, where it's even more common to have support classes. It's like you're trying to ruin your own argument. Maybe you just don't understand what a support class is?

    Many games don't even use the "holy trinity" setup of tank/DPS/healer, either. In those games support classes tend to fit in even better. But as they're "video games", you're apparently saying that's impossible lol. Jesus wept.

    And "the healer problem"? Wtf the early 2000s called, they wanted their problem back. It's been "the tank problem", if you mean it's hard to find them, for like, 10-12 years, in WoW.

    Maybe next time instead of "video games", try "holy-trinity-style hotbar MMORPGs"? You'd still be wrong but at least it would be less spectacular.

  5. #165
    Quote Originally Posted by Eurhetemec View Post
    This is utter gibberish, mate.

    Loads of games manage to have them just fine. Just not ones where the population is mindlessly fixated on DPS. Most support classes in other games are more about a combination of survivability, utility, and DPS gains, not just DPS gains like you seem to think. But either way, you're factually wrong - other games manage to have them and they work fine there. It's especially bizarre as fuck that you said "video games", because you're including CRPGs, where it's even more common to have support classes. It's like you're trying to ruin your own argument. Maybe you just don't understand what a support class is?

    Many games don't even use the "holy trinity" setup of tank/DPS/healer, either. In those games support classes tend to fit in even better. But as they're "video games", you're apparently saying that's impossible lol. Jesus wept.

    And "the healer problem"? Wtf the early 2000s called, they wanted their problem back. It's been "the tank problem", if you mean it's hard to find them, for like, 10-12 years, in WoW.

    Maybe next time instead of "video games", try "holy-trinity-style hotbar MMORPGs"? You'd still be wrong but at least it would be less spectacular.
    Other games like what exactly?

    Final fantasy? Because they nerfed a lot of their support classes hard from them being to powerful and essentially function as damage dealers now.

    WoW values it's high end play. Yes in games with only lfr or normal mode difficulty it doesn't matter but that isnt this game so why compare it?

  6. #166
    I agree, support classes are very weird.
    They don't have a place in the current WoW. You got enough support in form of Druid, shamans, pally's, warlocks, monks, ect all bring their own unique support, especially in M+ dungeons.

  7. #167
    Banned FelPlague's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Location
    Ontario,Canada
    Posts
    22,040
    Quote Originally Posted by Lucetia View Post
    Yeah, no one wants to go back to where only certain classes had an interrupt which pretty much limited who you took in to groups.
    you say this but demo locks have not had interupts for over a decade.
    for the short time we did it required a talent.
    shadowlands "fixed it" but not really... if something can be stunned it stuns instead of interrupts, so if something has been stunned so much its reduction is 100% it wont do squat... cause they CAN be stunned... but they cant.

  8. #168
    Scarab Lord
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    In the same urn as Vol'Jin
    Posts
    4,032
    Quote Originally Posted by Krakan View Post
    Other games like what exactly?

    Final fantasy? Because they nerfed a lot of their support classes hard from them being to powerful and essentially function as damage dealers now.

    WoW values it's high end play. Yes in games with only lfr or normal mode difficulty it doesn't matter but that isnt this game so why compare it?
    You said "video games", so I'm going to respond with "Just about any party-based CRPG in the last 20 years", either has, or allows the building of support-class. I can't off-hand think of a single one that doesn't.

    Guild Wars very specifically had TONS of support classes and was one of the most superbly designed multiplayer RPGs in history. Guild Wars 2 isn't holy trinity, and you can certainly set up a lot of characters as a "support class" and be extremely successful with some of those builds (and pretty good with a lot of them). Rift certainly used to have support classes, though maybe that changed. EQ and DAoC still have support classes, which again you're saying is impossible. ESO I don't know well enough to say, but it sounds like it's in a weird place where some people think it has support classes/specs and some don't, and it's sorta holy trinity but not entirely.

    Like I said, you're used the phrase "video games", but you clearly mean "holy-trinity-based hotbar MMOs", and like I said, even there it's dubious. Your only counter-example is FFXIV, a holy-trinity-based hotbar MMO, and you admit it has support classes, you're just trying to claim "Well um er they're more like DPS...".

    As for "WoW values it's high end play", ROFL.

    Mate you said "video games". VIDEO GAMES. You said support classes can't work in them. Just admit you're wrong, and admit you actually just meant "holy-trinity-based hotbar MMORPGs with a competitive endgame raiding scene". Which is like, three games?
    Last edited by Eurhetemec; 2020-10-16 at 02:14 PM.

  9. #169
    it would make certain classes or specs required

    look at DH in crucible only melee and only there for the debuff....it doesnt feel fun

    they removed the stat buff scrolls so now you are going to be doing a raid and if you dont have a warrior and a mage and a priest you will be weaker

  10. #170
    Quote Originally Posted by Yvern View Post
    Excuse me for typo in title: Breng = Bring obviously.

    I would like to discuss the following evolution the game has been through: Classes do not have any unique flavour left in their toolkit, even items nowadays can do things that normally only some classes could. (a good example are the drums that give bloodlust, orginally only reserved for Shamans)

    Wouldn't it be amazing to see some unique flavour back in the shadowlands. Why won't blizzard let one class excell in some shape or form and be less good in other aspects of the game. Is it because blizzard wants to appeal to a broader audience by homonisation of skills? Maybe.

    If classes have something that distinguishes them and makes them valuable it truly feels more like an MMO to me. So Blizzard should further unprune stuff and make new unique abilities or skills for classes to make WoW feel like an true MMO again.

    How cool is it that only mages could blink, you see a mage blink and it felt special and what about a priest that has one unique very powerfull prayer of healing effect but the other classes dont, these classes can have something else awesome. Why do classes need so much overlap between them nowadays.
    "Flavor" should not come at the expense of class viability. What you're proposing there, from what I understand in your example about bloodlust, is to bring back the disliked "bring the class, not the player" mentality that the early WoW suffered. I didn't like my S-priest having a guaranteed raid spot because I was the group's mana battery. I didn't even enjoy playing S-priest much, but, hey, it was either that, or raid only once or twice a month with my Arms warrior.

    My question for you guys: opinions on how to implement more uniqueness in Shadowlands for the classes?
    Graphics, animations and class customization. The class customization advertised for WoD would've been great for uniqueness.
    I did a Necromancer thing. Check it out! All feedback welcome!
    I also did a Bard thing! Questions, comments and ideas, all welcome!

  11. #171
    I mean each class does have its own uniqueness already, i'm failing to relate to this entire thread in any way. Maybe its not as simple as 1 ability anymore but an intricate network of abilities such as a shaman which does have totems you just probably haven't played them in a long time. They also have elements, and ghost wolf and much more. Have you actually played retail?

  12. #172
    Quote Originally Posted by Krakan View Post
    Support classes don't really make sense in video games as they are either to powerful or useless and run into the healer problem when it comes to making groups.

    Either the support class provides more of a damage gain then another dps and becomes mandatory or it does less dmg then what another dps would do and becomes useless.
    The only way to make a support class relevant is to make support required, and their damage or healing output irrelevant.

  13. #173
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    "Flavor" should not come at the expense of class viability. What you're proposing there, from what I understand in your example about bloodlust, is to bring back the disliked "bring the class, not the player" mentality that the early WoW suffered. I didn't like my S-priest having a guaranteed raid spot because I was the group's mana battery. I didn't even enjoy playing S-priest much, but, hey, it was either that, or raid only once or twice a month with my Arms warrior.


    Graphics, animations and class customization. The class customization advertised for WoD would've been great for uniqueness.
    S-priests were at their best when they out healed healers but were quickly nerfed. Any interesting uniqueness is always immediately squashed on account of people crying it's not fair! The irony of I want to be unique just like them!
    Quote Originally Posted by iloveplanets View Post
    Maybe Russia can bend their requirements to be President, and Trump can be President over there. Make the Motherland Great Again.

  14. #174
    Ah yes, let's make the divide between classes even bigger so we can get pugs only accepting very specific classes based on the activity. BFA was bad enough being expected to have 100% raid attendance as an aff lock because of HS/Portal/etc, while also not being taken to any M+ pushing, and impossible to get in pugs. It lead to my lock falling behind in gearing and getting a bollocking for not spamming M+ to gear up. I'm a big fan of bring the player not the class. Sure if you're waddling through lower content I'm sure it can be a bit boring, but for anyone who *wants* a challenge in the game, forcing classes just hurts people. I'd rather it be about player skill over if you have access to a spell or not.

  15. #175
    Quote Originally Posted by dextersmith View Post
    S-priests were at their best when they out healed healers but were quickly nerfed. Any interesting uniqueness is always immediately squashed on account of people crying it's not fair! The irony of I want to be unique just like them!
    Careful. It looks like you're equating "uniqueness" to "unfair advantage", considering shadow priests are supposed to be the damage spec, not the healing spec.
    I did a Necromancer thing. Check it out! All feedback welcome!
    I also did a Bard thing! Questions, comments and ideas, all welcome!

  16. #176
    Banned FelPlague's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Location
    Ontario,Canada
    Posts
    22,040
    Quote Originally Posted by Yvern View Post
    Excuse me for typo in title: Breng = Bring obviously.

    I would like to discuss the following evolution the game has been through: Classes do not have any unique flavour left in their toolkit, even items nowadays can do things that normally only some classes could. (a good example are the drums that give bloodlust, orginally only reserved for Shamans)

    Wouldn't it be amazing to see some unique flavour back in the shadowlands. Why won't blizzard let one class excell in some shape or form and be less good in other aspects of the game. Is it because blizzard wants to appeal to a broader audience by homonisation of skills? Maybe.

    If classes have something that distinguishes them and makes them valuable it truly feels more like an MMO to me. So Blizzard should further unprune stuff and make new unique abilities or skills for classes to make WoW feel like an true MMO again.

    How cool is it that only mages could blink, you see a mage blink and it felt special and what about a priest that has one unique very powerfull prayer of healing effect but the other classes dont, these classes can have something else awesome. Why do classes need so much overlap between them nowadays.

    My question for you guys: opinions on how to implement more uniqueness in Shadowlands for the classes?
    Every time they do people cry and complain.

    Classes are unique. "X class can do this but mine cant"
    Choices are unique. "I don't want to be forced to choose I want them all"

  17. #177
    To infinity and beyond det's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    The forums
    Posts
    35,921
    Quote Originally Posted by ViolenceJackRespectsWomen View Post
    You can have both even in vanilla groups really don't matter if you get enough gear. It works the same on live. It only matters for like 30+ keys but doing 15 with 1 shaman 3 elementals shamans and "x" tank is viable.
    While I tend to agree, I wonder why we then keep getting constant threats on ho "Nobody will invite me into any group if I am not choosing the optimal specc, class, covenant, whatever"?

  18. #178
    lol this gives me flashbacks to mop complaining that lead to the "Pruning" that people complained about all bfa

  19. #179
    Quote Originally Posted by det View Post
    While I tend to agree, I wonder why we then keep getting constant threats on ho "Nobody will invite me into any group if I am not choosing the optimal specc, class, covenant, whatever"?
    Uniqueness doesn't exist at the very top but that is the very top. 99% of players don't worry about this issue. Make friends or join a guild.
    Violence Jack Respects Women!

  20. #180
    To infinity and beyond det's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    The forums
    Posts
    35,921
    Quote Originally Posted by ViolenceJackRespectsWomen View Post
    Uniqueness doesn't exist at the very top but that is the very top. 99% of players don't worry about this issue. Make friends or join a guild.
    Yeah..I still agree....and we still get constant threats on how "Nobody will invite me into any group if I am not choosing the optimal specc, class, covenant, whatever"?

    To the point that Blizzard caved in and the "meaningful choice" of choosing a covenant can now be reverted every week or so...and people still cry how they want to change them whenever...like talents.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •