Shadowlands: Why won't blizzard bring back uniqueness?

[Eurhetemec]

Support classes don't really make sense in video games as they are either to powerful or useless and run into the healer problem when it comes to making groups.

Either the support class provides more of a damage gain then another dps and becomes mandatory or it does less dmg then what another dps would do and becomes useless.

This is utter gibberish, mate.

Loads of games manage to have them just fine. Just not ones where the population is mindlessly fixated on DPS. Most support classes in other games are more about a combination of survivability, utility, and DPS gains, not just DPS gains like you seem to think. But either way, you're factually wrong - other games manage to have them and they work fine there. It's especially bizarre as fuck that you said "video games", because you're including CRPGs, where it's even more common to have support classes. It's like you're trying to ruin your own argument. Maybe you just don't understand what a support class is?

Many games don't even use the "holy trinity" setup of tank/DPS/healer, either. In those games support classes tend to fit in even better. But as they're "video games", you're apparently saying that's impossible lol. Jesus wept.

And "the healer problem"? Wtf the early 2000s called, they wanted their problem back. It's been "the tank problem", if you mean it's hard to find them, for like, 10-12 years, in WoW.

Maybe next time instead of "video games", try "holy-trinity-style hotbar MMORPGs"? You'd still be wrong but at least it would be less spectacular.

[Krakan]

This is utter gibberish, mate.

Loads of games manage to have them just fine. Just not ones where the population is mindlessly fixated on DPS. Most support classes in other games are more about a combination of survivability, utility, and DPS gains, not just DPS gains like you seem to think. But either way, you're factually wrong - other games manage to have them and they work fine there. It's especially bizarre as fuck that you said "video games", because you're including CRPGs, where it's even more common to have support classes. It's like you're trying to ruin your own argument. Maybe you just don't understand what a support class is?

Many games don't even use the "holy trinity" setup of tank/DPS/healer, either. In those games support classes tend to fit in even better. But as they're "video games", you're apparently saying that's impossible lol. Jesus wept.

And "the healer problem"? Wtf the early 2000s called, they wanted their problem back. It's been "the tank problem", if you mean it's hard to find them, for like, 10-12 years, in WoW.

Maybe next time instead of "video games", try "holy-trinity-style hotbar MMORPGs"? You'd still be wrong but at least it would be less spectacular.

Other games like what exactly?

Final fantasy? Because they nerfed a lot of their support classes hard from them being to powerful and essentially function as damage dealers now.

WoW values it's high end play. Yes in games with only lfr or normal mode difficulty it doesn't matter but that isnt this game so why compare it?

[LordTakeo]

I agree, support classes are very weird.
They don't have a place in the current WoW. You got enough support in form of Druid, shamans, pally's, warlocks, monks, ect all bring their own unique support, especially in M+ dungeons.

[FelPlague]

Yeah, no one wants to go back to where only certain classes had an interrupt which pretty much limited who you took in to groups.

you say this but demo locks have not had interupts for over a decade.
for the short time we did it required a talent.
shadowlands "fixed it" but not really... if something can be stunned it stuns instead of interrupts, so if something has been stunned so much its reduction is 100% it wont do squat... cause they CAN be stunned... but they cant.

[Eurhetemec]

Other games like what exactly?

Final fantasy? Because they nerfed a lot of their support classes hard from them being to powerful and essentially function as damage dealers now.

WoW values it's high end play. Yes in games with only lfr or normal mode difficulty it doesn't matter but that isnt this game so why compare it?

You said "video games", so I'm going to respond with "Just about any party-based CRPG in the last 20 years", either has, or allows the building of support-class. I can't off-hand think of a single one that doesn't.

Guild Wars very specifically had TONS of support classes and was one of the most superbly designed multiplayer RPGs in history. Guild Wars 2 isn't holy trinity, and you can certainly set up a lot of characters as a "support class" and be extremely successful with some of those builds (and pretty good with a lot of them). Rift certainly used to have support classes, though maybe that changed. EQ and DAoC still have support classes, which again you're saying is impossible. ESO I don't know well enough to say, but it sounds like it's in a weird place where some people think it has support classes/specs and some don't, and it's sorta holy trinity but not entirely.

Like I said, you're used the phrase "video games", but you clearly mean "holy-trinity-based hotbar MMOs", and like I said, even there it's dubious. Your only counter-example is FFXIV, a holy-trinity-based hotbar MMO, and you admit it has support classes, you're just trying to claim "Well um er they're more like DPS...".

As for "WoW values it's high end play", ROFL.

Mate you said "video games". VIDEO GAMES. You said support classes can't work in them. Just admit you're wrong, and admit you actually just meant "holy-trinity-based hotbar MMORPGs with a competitive endgame raiding scene". Which is like, three games?

[Revamp Man]

it would make certain classes or specs required

look at DH in crucible only melee and only there for the debuff....it doesnt feel fun

they removed the stat buff scrolls so now you are going to be doing a raid and if you dont have a warrior and a mage and a priest you will be weaker

[Ielenia]

Excuse me for typo in title: Breng = Bring obviously.

I would like to discuss the following evolution the game has been through: Classes do not have any unique flavour left in their toolkit, even items nowadays can do things that normally only some classes could. (a good example are the drums that give bloodlust, orginally only reserved for Shamans)

Wouldn't it be amazing to see some unique flavour back in the shadowlands. Why won't blizzard let one class excell in some shape or form and be less good in other aspects of the game. Is it because blizzard wants to appeal to a broader audience by homonisation of skills? Maybe.

If classes have something that distinguishes them and makes them valuable it truly feels more like an MMO to me. So Blizzard should further unprune stuff and make new unique abilities or skills for classes to make WoW feel like an true MMO again.

How cool is it that only mages could blink, you see a mage blink and it felt special and what about a priest that has one unique very powerfull prayer of healing effect but the other classes dont, these classes can have something else awesome. Why do classes need so much overlap between them nowadays.

"Flavor" should not come at the expense of class viability. What you're proposing there, from what I understand in your example about bloodlust, is to bring back the disliked "bring the class, not the player" mentality that the early WoW suffered. I didn't like my S-priest having a guaranteed raid spot because I was the group's mana battery. I didn't even enjoy playing S-priest much, but, hey, it was either that, or raid only once or twice a month with my Arms warrior.

My question for you guys: opinions on how to implement more uniqueness in Shadowlands for the classes?

Graphics, animations and class customization. The class customization advertised for WoD would've been great for uniqueness.

[ketsui]

I mean each class does have its own uniqueness already, i'm failing to relate to this entire thread in any way. Maybe its not as simple as 1 ability anymore but an intricate network of abilities such as a shaman which does have totems you just probably haven't played them in a long time. They also have elements, and ghost wolf and much more. Have you actually played retail?

[Rampant Rabbit]

Support classes don't really make sense in video games as they are either to powerful or useless and run into the healer problem when it comes to making groups.

Either the support class provides more of a damage gain then another dps and becomes mandatory or it does less dmg then what another dps would do and becomes useless.

The only way to make a support class relevant is to make support required, and their damage or healing output irrelevant.

[dextersmith]

"Flavor" should not come at the expense of class viability. What you're proposing there, from what I understand in your example about bloodlust, is to bring back the disliked "bring the class, not the player" mentality that the early WoW suffered. I didn't like my S-priest having a guaranteed raid spot because I was the group's mana battery. I didn't even enjoy playing S-priest much, but, hey, it was either that, or raid only once or twice a month with my Arms warrior.


Graphics, animations and class customization. The class customization advertised for WoD would've been great for uniqueness.

S-priests were at their best when they out healed healers but were quickly nerfed. Any interesting uniqueness is always immediately squashed on account of people crying it's not fair! The irony of I want to be unique just like them!

[MatPandaZ]

Ah yes, let's make the divide between classes even bigger so we can get pugs only accepting very specific classes based on the activity. BFA was bad enough being expected to have 100% raid attendance as an aff lock because of HS/Portal/etc, while also not being taken to any M+ pushing, and impossible to get in pugs. It lead to my lock falling behind in gearing and getting a bollocking for not spamming M+ to gear up. I'm a big fan of bring the player not the class. Sure if you're waddling through lower content I'm sure it can be a bit boring, but for anyone who *wants* a challenge in the game, forcing classes just hurts people. I'd rather it be about player skill over if you have access to a spell or not.

[Ielenia]

S-priests were at their best when they out healed healers but were quickly nerfed. Any interesting uniqueness is always immediately squashed on account of people crying it's not fair! The irony of I want to be unique just like them!

Careful. It looks like you're equating "uniqueness" to "unfair advantage", considering shadow priests are supposed to be the damage spec, not the healing spec.

[FelPlague]

Excuse me for typo in title: Breng = Bring obviously.

I would like to discuss the following evolution the game has been through: Classes do not have any unique flavour left in their toolkit, even items nowadays can do things that normally only some classes could. (a good example are the drums that give bloodlust, orginally only reserved for Shamans)

Wouldn't it be amazing to see some unique flavour back in the shadowlands. Why won't blizzard let one class excell in some shape or form and be less good in other aspects of the game. Is it because blizzard wants to appeal to a broader audience by homonisation of skills? Maybe.

If classes have something that distinguishes them and makes them valuable it truly feels more like an MMO to me. So Blizzard should further unprune stuff and make new unique abilities or skills for classes to make WoW feel like an true MMO again.

How cool is it that only mages could blink, you see a mage blink and it felt special and what about a priest that has one unique very powerfull prayer of healing effect but the other classes dont, these classes can have something else awesome. Why do classes need so much overlap between them nowadays.

My question for you guys: opinions on how to implement more uniqueness in Shadowlands for the classes?

Every time they do people cry and complain.

Classes are unique. "X class can do this but mine cant"
Choices are unique. "I don't want to be forced to choose I want them all"

[arandomuser]

lol this gives me flashbacks to mop complaining that lead to the "Pruning" that people complained about all bfa

[Varvara Spiros Gelashvili]

While I tend to agree, I wonder why we then keep getting constant threats on ho "Nobody will invite me into any group if I am not choosing the optimal specc, class, covenant, whatever"?

Uniqueness doesn't exist at the very top but that is the very top. 99% of players don't worry about this issue. Make friends or join a guild.

[Varvara Spiros Gelashvili]

Yeah..I still agree....and we still get constant threats on how "Nobody will invite me into any group if I am not choosing the optimal specc, class, covenant, whatever"?

To the point that Blizzard caved in and the "meaningful choice" of choosing a covenant can now be reverted every week or so...and people still cry how they want to change them whenever...like talents.

I think covenant won't be a big deal but its bad practices. Stop trying to make me do shit I don't like and create interesting content. It's also about me wanting to play the game. The way I enjoy.

[Krakan]

Every time they do people cry and complain.

Classes are unique. "X class can do this but mine cant"
Choices are unique. "I don't want to be forced to choose I want them all"

It's more I don't want my entire raid to be mostly one class... just look at classic to see how unique classes works out in practice...

People want to be useful or at least the grand majority do. If you offer most of the playerbase one choice and another that is just flat out twice as good people who pick the first will feel slighted if they didnt know ahead of time.

[WowIsDead64]

Vanilla rogues were terrible if you had more than 2 active mobs because they had no self heal or aoe, eating after each fight. Remember warriors trying to off heal with bandages? lol

That's, why I don't play Vanilla. Rogues have healing poison now, defensive CDs and can reset fight at any moment. They also can skip any fight, if they want. And Warriros are still terrible, as back in Vanilla. They have limited healing CD, that can only be used once per "hard" mob fight. Yeah, it's a little better, than nothing, but they are still one of those classes, that sit around bottom of my solo content rating. Only good nuking capability makes them better, than Mages.

[Varvara Spiros Gelashvili]

...say a few million people and all of them have different ideas of what is shit they don't like and what is "interesting content"...or the way they enjoy it. Hell...I have no idea what you like. You have no idea what I like.

I think this it where the moment comes in where you find a game that suits you best. Maybe it is WoW...maybe it isn't anymore.

This is why the games dying. Chore systems are cancer... I don't understand why I can get a covenant through whatever activity, I want like in cataclsym. You could do dailies, dungeons, and pvp for reputation by picking a tabard.

My systems allows you to quest and enjoy the story but it allows me to pick the activity, I want to do. I advocated for freedom but you want to just defend blizzards choices.

[Sorrior]

Its so odd seeing the duality of the playerbase and it often shows on this forum quite well. I remember seeing a post that said bosses are too simple and don't have enough mechanics right next to another post that said bosses are too difficult and have too many mechanics.

This post here is another one of those posts where I keep seeing people talk about how they're de-homogenizing too much and its causing issues with spec representation and going back to a "bring the class not the player" mentality. And then there's this post claiming that everything is too homogenized and they need to go back to de-homogenizing despite that being what blizzard has been doing for 2 going on 3 xpacs now.

Its so so odd.

Homestly it's the mmo vs rpg thing. Some want more rpg such as less homogenization abd olayer choices others want to focus on the mmo aspects such as raiding and dungeons

Early wow had alot for both but fun not balance also seemed to be the devs focus..today you have the hardcore raiders/pvpers who minmax everything and insist on a frankly unattainable level of balance

Then the rpers who want it to feel like a world again complete with all the nuisances that potentially entails.

Annd in trying to appease both blizz is appeasing neither at least imo