I am the one talking about the big picture. You are the one that is hyper-obsessed with rotation.
"More diverse" is not "Less homogenized". In fact, "more diverse" has generally meant "more homogenized" in WoW.
This is kind of a waste of time, because I've provided substantive, detailed real examples and all you've done is go "NUH UH!"
"stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
-ynnady
..and so he left, with terrible power in shaking hands.
I didn't hand waive anything. I conceded that rotations are more complex now. To deny that would be maniacal. My contention is simply that equating rotation with gameplay and acting like nothing else in the game exists is absurd. You keep saying there's all these gigantic amazing differences between classes now yet you can't seem to point anything out.
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Class design is not rotation design. Class design encompasses a broad range of things, primarily centered around matching gameplay to class fantasy. What do you think the class fantasy of mage and the class fantasy of warlock is, and how the gameplay of each class differs in order to make that class fantasy feel distinct?
"stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
-ynnady
Because there's nothing different to point out? We've talked about portals and water but they both still exist and water is still relevant to healers and arcane.
You want to talk about warlock? Healthstones still a thing, summoning stone still a thing.
You want to talk about utility? What kind of utility at what points in the game do you want to talk about? Because there's been a shit ton of different unique things over the course of the games life that easily overshadow what existed in vanilla. Wanna go with warlock still? Unending resolve + dark pact + dark bargain hell toss soul leech in there... was an absolutely silly non-rotational utility that got used in all sorts of content with how tanky it made you. You could cheese all sorts of things. Pets still exist and still have their utility, hell even how you do your damage which you wanna ignore differed greatly from other specs / classes which is its own form of utility since you want the guy whos really good at spread cleave to do this job on this fight and the guy whos super good at priority burst to do that job on that fight etc etc which really just barely if at all exists in classic because damage is so homogenized by the lack of anything going on in classes kits.
I dunno dude we can keep this going across multiple expansions and classes it'd literally take days but we could go through everything since you clearly haven't played the game enough to know.
Fantasy? Mage is your typical sorcerer type using arcane magic and locks are your evil caster who sacrifices anyone or anything for power focusing on fel and void magics.What do you think the class fantasy of mage and the class fantasy of warlock is, and how the gameplay of each class differs in order to make that class fantasy feel distinct?
Gameplay wise depends on the xpac or sometimes even the patch. But you're using gameplay to exclude playing the game outside of niche utility so I'm not sure how you want that question answered.
..and so he left, with terrible power in shaking hands.
Unique assets tend towards either being mandatory or useless. Bloodlust as an example became mandatory, encounters became designed around it, shamans were required, which reduced demand for other classes.
I think players who want this really just want to be able to pick the class that gets free group invites.
They are going right back to that through removing buff scrolls
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Grapple weapon and MoP era ring of peace was amazing as a monk
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Are you talking currently?? Because he covered that
This season’s affix is one that negates the need for the rogue skip.
No, you can search logs by season. People these days only argue from extremes, and it does their argument no good at all. Rogues were a favored class, and always have been, right back since vanilla. UH dks were also highly sought after, as were hunters - and lets not even get started on prot wars. But this changes quite a bit based on dungeon, group makeup and playstyle etc.
Favored and preferred class? No doubt. Mandatory? nope, not what the logs show.
Portals, water, healthstones, and summoning have all been homogenized. Water is rarely needed, travel is already hyperspeed, and basically everyone has self heals.
Most of what you are talking about isn't utility, and Dark Pact was in Classic. You don't seem to get it, and at this point its becoming clear you don't want to engage honestly. You are talking about rotation issues and calling it utility.You want to talk about utility? What kind of utility at what points in the game do you want to talk about? Because there's been a shit ton of different unique things over the course of the games life that easily overshadow what existed in vanilla. Wanna go with warlock still? Unending resolve + dark pact + dark bargain hell toss soul leech in there... was an absolutely silly non-rotational utility that got used in all sorts of content with how tanky it made you. You could cheese all sorts of things. Pets still exist and still have their utility, hell even how you do your damage which you wanna ignore differed greatly from other specs / classes which is its own form of utility since you want the guy whos really good at spread cleave to do this job on this fight and the guy whos super good at priority burst to do that job on that fight etc etc which really just barely if at all exists in classic because damage is so homogenized by the lack of anything going on in classes kits.
Yeah, this is pretty weak. You are trying to lecture me on design when I've actually worked as a game designer, and this is all you can come up with?Fantasy? Mage is your typical sorcerer type using arcane magic and locks are your evil caster who sacrifices anyone or anything for power focusing on fel and void magics.
Gameplay wise depends on the xpac or sometimes even the patch. But you're using gameplay to exclude playing the game outside of niche utility so I'm not sure how you want that question answered.
The mage class fantasy is based on the classic D&D wizard archetype of the learned magical scholar, frail and weak but with incredible power. It dovetails with the Gandalf character type, which is slightly different. Some of the aspects that sum this up are reality manipulation, conjuring of elemental forces, and the use of intelligence to overcome challenges. These aspects can all be seen in the classic mage. Reality manipulation is represented through portals and conjuring, which have extremely valuable utility in Classic. Elemental forces is fairly obvious. The use of intelligence is represented in a couple of different ways, such as Arcane Intellect buff and the fact that many talents are described with words like "attunement", "meditation", and "concentration", and also the ability to Detect Magioc.
The warlock class fantasy is based on very different archetypes. Thulsa Doom from Conan is a good example, and a lot of other examples would similarly touch on necromancy. The warlock is a unique class in this regard, as the necromancer has typically been the dark caster archetype. Replacing this is demonic summoning, and some of the aspects that sum up the warlock would be manipulating souls, wielding dangerous magic, and pulling magical energy from other places, as opposed to the Mage's methodology of research and study. We can see the "dangerous magic" concept very clearly with Life Tap being the primary method of mana regeneration, and obviously Ritual of Doom falls into this as well. Trading health for mana is an incredibly large distinction between the warlock and the mage. Manipulating souls is represented through soul shards, which again draws a distinction with the mage since needing to use soul shards makes a massive mechanical difference in how the classes play. Warlocks draw their power from a physical object that takes up space, while mages are not handicapped by that. Pulling magical energy from other places is represented not only through the soul shard mechanics, but also through demonic summoning.
Interesting points where these classes diverge thematically are soul shards, where their magic comes from (as represented through many mechanics but primarily how they recover mana), and very interestingly how they both have transportation mechanics that work very differently. While the mage manipulates reality to open portals and teleport, the warlock rips someone through the nether to themselves. Warlocks have more survivability, which plays into the distinction of mages being frail but powerful while the warlock can keep himself going through dark means such as draining life. There are so many interesting ways that the classes are made distinct in ways that make the class fantasy work, and most of those ways are either gone entirely now or they have been mitigated out of relevance through either class homogenization or world homogenization.
"stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
-ynnady
... A version of dark pact existed in classic... but if you've kept up with said spell you'd know its been different spells over the years and that the classic one is a different spell than the one that's existed since MoP... That the only thing they share is the name and that you take something from your pet...
You don't even know that much... which is not the first time in this conversation you've shown that you don't know what abilities exist... though you're the specifics guy right?... but you're supposed to know better even though you don't know basics...
..and so he left, with terrible power in shaking hands.
Wrong. You don't need a rogue to push high keys. Which YouTuber told you this? Rogues are not mandatory and they are not needed. Stop parroting your fav "content creator".
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Yelling doesn't make you right. You should look up the word mandatory. It doesn't mean what you think it means.
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I guess it's because leaving a comment that really doesn't add to the thread is a lot easier to do then not leaving a comment that adds to the thread.
This is the point i am trying to make - something being popular in no way makes it mandatory. Certain encounters can be made easier by using certain classes in a raid setting as well, but that doesnt make them MANDATORY. I see this all the time in casual heroic pugs where morons exclaim the group will fail because "you need X class to do Y mechanic, you wont be able to clear the raid!" which is 100% false 100% of the time.
Its usually one of two things - they heard some clown on youtube / twitch / w.e crying about it because they cant get into a group, or, they have seen some guides for mythic were method used X class to help with Y mechanic, and every normal mode raider decides they are now "mandatory".
Don't think anything in WoW is mandatory. Easier is the word those people are looking for. Its like those who yells that they can't do PvP in Shadowlands because they chose the wrong Covenant. So they are "Forced" into picking the best one. I understand what they mean with forced and mandatory, but it is indeed terms that do not explain what they mean because there is no such thing in WoW.
The only thing we are forced to be or that is mandatory if we want to be in a top 50 mythic guild or become a Gladiator and that is to git gud.
https://www.youtube.com/@DoffenGG
Gaming and WoW stuff
Yeah I agree 100% with this. Its just frustrating seeing people who havnt done above a 10 without paying telling everyone rogues are mandatory if you want to push higher keys, when thats absolutely not the case. Couple of raid bosses were a bit easier with certain classes/spec, but that didnt make them MANDATORY.
Like i said, are they prefered / favored? Yes. Are they in any way mandatory? Nope. I havnt looked for a while, but there were some very high keys completed in time without a prot warrior as well, but thats a different story, and certainly they have that role pretty much tied up.