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  1. #21
    I am torn between choosing rogue or warlock. I mained a warrior since release so I really want to play a caster especially affliction.
    but I also want a better pvp experience and rogue is here. God damn it.

    Also coincidentally I was checking dps rankings on icy vein and wowmeta just today to be able to decide but damn I cannot at all.
    Also the picture is taken from wowmeta
    https://www.wowmeta.com/shadowlands/...ings#all-stars

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Fantazma View Post
    Taking advantage of this topic ....
    Someone can answer me: For PVP... What looks better?
    Subterfuge + Dark Shadow OR Nightstalker + Enveloping Shadows??
    In the first I have 3 secs to apply Cheap shot> SS> SS> Rupture and then proceed with an awesome buff inside the shadow dance ...
    In the second I start with Shadow Dance after Cheap Shot ... and without the Dark Shadows buff BUT I have 16 seconds inside Shadow dance ...!
    I'm really in doubt ...
    i think it depends on how the enemy tries to counter you and if legendaries are active in arena.
    Subterfuge+Dark Shadow allows for Akaari's to procc 3 times before entering dance, giving a lot of initial pressure.
    Nightstalker + Enveloping Shadows with 2 dances means more acess to Cheap Shot if the moment calls for it. you would have to use the 2nd dance offensively to make up for missing out on 2 extra SS from Subterfuge and Dark Shadow.

    will depend on how crazy anti-burst meta turns out with all systems in play. if burst can go mostly unhindered, option 1 feels like it would be stronger, while option 2 will most likely be better if the meta allowes for more "getting away" due to soulbinds, legendaries and whatever else they might add that is active in arena.

    on a side note, on the current ptr build, Premed IS active in dance, but has a weird 3ish seconds recharge window. you get the "next SS will procc Premed" buff regardless of stealth, and Premed is not checking for true Stealth like Master Assassin legendary is. And it always increases SnD duration, even past 6 CP cap.
    The above mentioned remarks, ideas and notions are simply my thought on this topic. I do not wish to aggravate, denounce or criticize anyone who, for whatever reason, may disagree.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by gd8 View Post
    so according to this pic basically every spec sucks
    Except for the spec that has been dead since 8.1

  4. #24
    This tier list has zero value. It's from before the balance tuning they're doing right now, most of it depends on SBS being op as hell, also given everything it seems this counts only ST damage so it's even less relevant.

    Apparently the double shadowstrike legendary is OP aswell, so that's it.

    I don't get how people is so obsessed by tier lists and "my clas is better than yours" FFS. I mean, there are so many players choosing their class based on simcraft and not on what they find fun to play? Then ask yourself why the game is in an abysmal place right now (hint: players have a lot to do with this).
    No one wants to choose. Everyone wants everything.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Coldkil View Post
    This tier list has zero value. It's from before the balance tuning they're doing right now, most of it depends on SBS being op as hell, also given everything it seems this counts only ST damage so it's even less relevant.

    Apparently the double shadowstrike legendary is OP aswell, so that's it.

    I don't get how people is so obsessed by tier lists and "my clas is better than yours" FFS. I mean, there are so many players choosing their class based on simcraft and not on what they find fun to play? Then ask yourself why the game is in an abysmal place right now (hint: players have a lot to do with this).
    You heard it here first. Apparently outlaw sucks for mythic + for the first time ever, and assassin is bad at pve for the first time ever.

    Rerolling affliction lock confirmed im abandoning my rogue main.

    lol im gonna play rogue like i always do and maybe have an alt or two and not really stress about it too much, obviously if one spec is stronger than the other i will lean towards it. But judging that before even one tuning pass? utter madness.
    Comes a time when we all gotta die...even kings.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Volatilis View Post
    You heard it here first. Apparently outlaw sucks for mythic + for the first time ever, and assassin is bad at pve for the first time ever.
    Outlaw performance just needed the aoe cap on BF to be gutted. That's the only reason why it's so strong on m+ or anything that has sustained cleave, it's been like this FOREVER.

    About Assassination, i think it's just gonna be reliable as always. The actual numbers? Gonna wait first raid and warcraft logs and updated simcrafts. Though i also think the biggest hit on the spec was the diminishing return on the secondary stats, especially haste given how it's a dot-based spec.

    Subtlety gets the upper hand because a) it didn't have aoe at all and now it's getting an actual aoe rotation and b) it actually makes use of every stat - mastery for finisher damage, crit for FW uptime, haste is an obvious one. Having some of all is gonna be a good thing.

    Anyway, again, balance pass has yet to happen, and i expect it to be not good at all. Some outliers will be fixed but then something else comes out and so on.
    No one wants to choose. Everyone wants everything.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Coldkil View Post
    This tier list has zero value. It's from before the balance tuning they're doing right now, most of it depends on SBS being op as hell, also given everything it seems this counts only ST damage so it's even less relevant.

    Apparently the double shadowstrike legendary is OP aswell, so that's it.

    I don't get how people is so obsessed by tier lists and "my clas is better than yours" FFS. I mean, there are so many players choosing their class based on simcraft and not on what they find fun to play? Then ask yourself why the game is in an abysmal place right now (hint: players have a lot to do with this).
    Youre absolutely right with one and it's getting worse and worse over the years imo. But sadly as long as there are popular youtubers and streamers that keep making shout outs like " i wouldn't play X class cause ..." , there are gonna be many many people who follow that trend without even knowing why.
    You see the same happening to these forums as well. Back in the day there were a hell of a lot more theorycrafters per class and useful posts. Besides discord, these forums are now filled with topics like this and people that just complain without knowing the reason behind it, simply cause their class is not fotm.

    As long as you got players crying and whining about things they don't actually know, simply cause their class doesn't do top dps, the game is getting worse and worse in that regard imho.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Azantrox View Post
    Youre absolutely right with one and it's getting worse and worse over the years imo. But sadly as long as there are popular youtubers and streamers that keep making shout outs like " i wouldn't play X class cause ..." , there are gonna be many many people who follow that trend without even knowing why.
    You see the same happening to these forums as well. Back in the day there were a hell of a lot more theorycrafters per class and useful posts. Besides discord, these forums are now filled with topics like this and people that just complain without knowing the reason behind it, simply cause their class is not fotm.

    As long as you got players crying and whining about things they don't actually know, simply cause their class doesn't do top dps, the game is getting worse and worse in that regard imho.
    Agree. I mean, it's fine to have rankings, especially Wacraftlogs because that's real logs from players and you can see how actually everyone is playing. They're very valuable because you can COMPARE to others of your same spec and class and even ilvl. From there, if you see some specs consistently behind others, you have valid reasons to think that the spec is underpowered or not suited for those specific fights.

    Unfortunately, since tier lists are the thing that makes people choose, there will always be underrepresentation of low tier specs because not many players will try/play them, nor get proficient with them. There's no doubt that some specs will be stronger than others, but i don't really understand why people keep playing stuff they don't like because bigger numbers are better.

    Everyone can play the game the way he wants. I also check the stuff for rogues cause it's the class i play from when this game released and i don't want to be an hindrance to my group. But if let's say Venthyr is just a little behind Fae and i like Venthyr more, i'm gonna choose Venthyr. Bceause, in the end, i'm gonna play months and i know i'm just gonna drop the ball if i was "forced" to do something i don't like.
    No one wants to choose. Everyone wants everything.

  9. #29
    Well sub is currently crazily op in beta for everything. Especially pvp is crazy.

    Numbers tuning is still missing. Expect many nerfs in the next builds enveloping shadows + legendary are crazy in beta.

    If they bring some things like some covenants, talents and legendaries to reasonable level, we dont know if further nerfs are necessary. But there will be nerfs to topperformers because currently sub really is nearly 100% better than some low performers.

    Again, sub has some overpowered talents, cov abilities abd legendaries.So balancing those alone will be a huge nerf.

    One thing to note: sub is getting a lot of damage at level 58, so prepatch wont be strong. Some specs will gain nearly no dps leveling up while sub will explode with current tuning and legendaries/cov.
    Last edited by Aurosh; 2020-09-15 at 10:37 AM.

  10. #30
    Ok here is the problem with sub. Either it stays as it is or it is nerfed to death. Sub has never been balanced in any addon (I am only talking about PvE, don't know PvP tbh). It was either too broken, or just not playable anymore, because not good enough.

    I hope blizzard finally finds the perfect center for this spec, because it is just fun and for me the best identity a rogue can have. I do not want another assin addon.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Aurosh View Post

    One thing to note: sub is getting a lot of damage at level 58, so prepatch wont be strong.
    https://shadowlands.wowhead.com/spel...8/shadow-vault

    Shadow Vault rank 2 ?

  12. #32
    People care about numbers NOW? Really? There is only one thing you should care about, and thats the rotation/how the specc feels.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by fear View Post
    Makes sense. With the only aoe finisher not doing extra damage, the damage lowers quite a lot. Though again, it's not this. Probably it's scaling that has a hefty jump past 58.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by JoakimB View Post
    People care about numbers NOW? Really? There is only one thing you should care about, and thats the rotation/how the specc feels.
    Always have been, and it's not wrong per se. The difference is between "i care about my class/spec character and i want it to be viable and fun to play" and "i don't care about anything else that's not top damage/tank/healer".
    No one wants to choose. Everyone wants everything.

  14. #34
    Sub is the only real rogue spec anyway. It's all good.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by hots87 View Post
    Sub also has a very high skill cap so some may be insane and others that don’t have the skill will do much less damage.
    Have you seen sub gameplay in SL? It's less complex than sin at this point

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Bennett View Post
    Have you seen sub gameplay in SL? It's less complex than sin at this point
    Sin in SL is same as it's now basically, Sub on the other hand has several possibilities and def not as easy as sin if you want to play it right. The only reason people feel like it's so easy is the bugs that are currently in place. Once those are taken away, it won't be as "faceroll" as some claim it to be.

  17. #37
    If you go to the source of that picture, this is all based off a total of 197 logs of Nathria on Beta... which is such a small sample to be completely pointless. I've been doing just mythic + on beta (no real interest in raiding) and from what I've seen I'll be very surprised if sub makes it to live at its current tuning. I don't know if it's the shadow strike legendary, or some other combination of things going on right now but it's just clearly over tuned compared to a lot of things.

    Sin felt very untuned to me the few dungeons I did on it, and outlaw seems good. So this "ranking" list at least from what I've seen on beta just doesn't really matter as they haven't even done major tuning passes yet.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by britishbubba View Post
    If you go to the source of that picture, this is all based off a total of 197 logs of Nathria on Beta... which is such a small sample to be completely pointless. I've been doing just mythic + on beta (no real interest in raiding) and from what I've seen I'll be very surprised if sub makes it to live at its current tuning. I don't know if it's the shadow strike legendary, or some other combination of things going on right now but it's just clearly over tuned compared to a lot of things.

    Sin felt very untuned to me the few dungeons I did on it, and outlaw seems good. So this "ranking" list at least from what I've seen on beta just doesn't really matter as they haven't even done major tuning passes yet.
    Its several bugs and no tuning on spells and legendary. Akaari legendary is currently very OP, the damage from the extra SS is huge + if you use symbol on SS the extra ss crits for huge amounts. Link to the bug here: https://github.com/SimCMinMax/WoW-BugTracker/issues/621

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Azantrox View Post
    Its several bugs and no tuning on spells and legendary. Akaari legendary is currently very OP, the damage from the extra SS is huge + if you use symbol on SS the extra ss crits for huge amounts. Link to the bug here: https://github.com/SimCMinMax/WoW-BugTracker/issues/621
    Yeah, I had a feeling something was up with it, thanks for linking me that.

  20. #40
    Is balancing before balancing real? Real talk sub is by far the most fun spec on the rogue atm.

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