Is this sub thing 4 real...

[Lyken81]

Fun = one shotting people in 1-2 sec?

I just find it "funny" when people think something is fun. I mean ret was fun when you could one shot raid bosses. Playing a tank in PvP was fun when you couldnt be killed by 6 people attacking you.

But if sub is only fun when you can kill almost everyone within 3-4 seconds unless they have immunities then sub isn't fun at all. It currently is broken (like some other specs in pvp, but not that crazy). Being fun because you are invulnerable isn't going to work.

Man you really dont get it. i believe you dont play rogue.
Assasination is dead simple , slow and boring and it is in that state forever. Outlaw has so much rng embedd into dps output that even if you perfectly manage all of your abilities and energe etc...you still can be dead bottom. What is the fun it ?

But subtley is considered most fun as it is a bit more challenging than other spec to execute it correctly and always was, its with faster pace and management of burst windows. It allow you for a lot of control which is not present in other spec. THAT IS WHY ITS FUNNY. This spec was literally unplayable due to the output for long time.

of course most 5% of the skilled player can get something from every spec but we need to look at it from perspective of ordinary player not elitist.

Blizzard balance is like it is. its a constant circle of clasess having more or less power ( with exclusion of mages and locks who are ALWAYS good).Relax

[idnn]

Fun = one shotting people in 1-2 sec?

I just find it "funny" when people think something is fun. I mean ret was fun when you could one shot raid bosses. Playing a tank in PvP was fun when you couldnt be killed by 6 people attacking you.

But if sub is only fun when you can kill almost everyone within 3-4 seconds unless they have immunities then sub isn't fun at all. It currently is broken (like some other specs in pvp, but not that crazy). Being fun because you are invulnerable isn't going to work.

you cant oneshot bosses.

who cares about pvp

[LordTakeo]

Taking advantage of this topic ....
Someone can answer me: For PVP... What looks better?
Subterfuge + Dark Shadow OR Nightstalker + Enveloping Shadows??
In the first I have 3 secs to apply Cheap shot> SS> SS> Rupture and then proceed with an awesome buff inside the shadow dance ...
In the second I start with Shadow Dance after Cheap Shot ... and without the Dark Shadows buff BUT I have 16 seconds inside Shadow dance ...!
I'm really in doubt ...

It's a bit late, but Enveloping shadows, as you can get an uptime of Shadowdance to 80%, with the legendary, as the legendary (unless nerved) will give you combo points aswell.

Honestly, this legendary is the entire reason why Sub is so stupid strong right now.

Edit: And Nightstalker for PvP, the burst damage during Shadow-dance, with such an high uptime is important.

[Cthulhu fhtagn]

Fun = one shotting people in 1-2 sec?

I just find it "funny" when people think something is fun. I mean ret was fun when you could one shot raid bosses. Playing a tank in PvP was fun when you couldnt be killed by 6 people attacking you.

But if sub is only fun when you can kill almost everyone within 3-4 seconds unless they have immunities then sub isn't fun at all. It currently is broken (like some other specs in pvp, but not that crazy). Being fun because you are invulnerable isn't going to work.

Nothing to do with how strong it is. I find shadowdance windows more fun to play than outlaw or assassin.

[Mafic]

It's a bit late, but Enveloping shadows, as you can get an uptime of Shadowdance to 80%, with the legendary, as the legendary (unless nerved) will give you combo points aswell.

Honestly, this legendary is the entire reason why Sub is so stupid strong right now.

Edit: And Nightstalker for PvP, the burst damage during Shadow-dance, with such an high uptime is important.

It is not just the legendary that is the problem. Enveloping Shadows is too difficult to balance because of that extra charge of dance. Remove the charge and the spec can be balanced properly.

[LordTakeo]

It is not just the legendary that is the problem. Enveloping Shadows is too difficult to balance because of that extra charge of dance. Remove the charge and the spec can be balanced properly.

I kind of disagree, the charge gameplay is for a more relaxed type of gameplay, where you never "waste" a cd reduction on Shadowdance. If anything, remove the additional second off through the talent, if you wish to hit it hard.

I myself am not against 1 charge only S-Dance gameplay myself, but I fear that if they just nerf it, without buffing it's compeditors, we'll be relying on a single legendary for the DPS output.

Hence I'd like to see the Legendary nerfed to a normal level, and balance applied to the entire row of talents, since right now, dark shadows doesn't increase "by" 30%, but from it's now baseline 15% -to- 30%.

Edit: We could also just remove the 15% baseline damage increase, half the effectiveness of the Legendary, and remove the additioncal cd reduction from Enveloping, as a start?

[RobertoCarlos]

Outlaw performance just needed the aoe cap on BF to be gutted. That's the only reason why it's so strong on m+ or anything that has sustained cleave, it's been like this FOREVER.

About Assassination, i think it's just gonna be reliable as always. The actual numbers? Gonna wait first raid and warcraft logs and updated simcrafts. Though i also think the biggest hit on the spec was the diminishing return on the secondary stats, especially haste given how it's a dot-based spec.

Subtlety gets the upper hand because a) it didn't have aoe at all and now it's getting an actual aoe rotation and b) it actually makes use of every stat - mastery for finisher damage, crit for FW uptime, haste is an obvious one. Having some of all is gonna be a good thing.

Anyway, again, balance pass has yet to happen, and i expect it to be not good at all. Some outliers will be fixed but then something else comes out and so on.

Outlaw still has gouge and every spec will be effected by aoe cap so that balances out

[Fantazma]

Fun = one shotting people in 1-2 sec?

YES!!!

No offense dude ... but ... Are you really a main Rogue or are you just another DH infiltrating here for fear of losing the "crown" ??

Yes, dude, after being TOTALLY broken and super-nerfed since Legion the feeling that we, subtlety main-rogues, are definitely strong is all I want to see in Shadowlands.

p.s:
And yes, it seems that we are really VIABLE in all SL content ... but (unfortunately) we are not killing anyone in 1-2 seconds. Not even in the best Pikaboo videos does this rogue mult-glad champion manage to kill a noob in 1-2 seconds ...!
So, plz, stop asking NERF for your own class (if you really are a main rogue).

[Mafic]

I kind of disagree, the charge gameplay is for a more relaxed type of gameplay, where you never "waste" a cd reduction on Shadowdance. If anything, remove the additional second off through the talent, if you wish to hit it hard.

I myself am not against 1 charge only S-Dance gameplay myself, but I fear that if they just nerf it, without buffing it's compeditors, we'll be relying on a single legendary for the DPS output.

Hence I'd like to see the Legendary nerfed to a normal level, and balance applied to the entire row of talents, since right now, dark shadows doesn't increase "by" 30%, but from it's now baseline 15% -to- 30%.

Edit: We could also just remove the 15% baseline damage increase, half the effectiveness of the Legendary, and remove the additioncal cd reduction from Enveloping, as a start?

Well something has to give because Enveloping shadows as it currently stands is a major road block toward balancing Sub.

[shoegazing]

Well something has to give because Enveloping shadows as it currently stands is a major road block toward balancing Sub.

They keep undermining everything they promise about giving us the old Subtlety playstyle back.

OK it's a single charge baseline now, but the cooldown reduction is a bigger problem than charges ever were, and now the talent that adds the 2nd charge and increases CDR rate is the strongest in PvP by far, due to the baseline bonus to Shadow Dance damage which was never present before.

I hate these shithead, useless developers so much. They are literal snakes. No matter what feedback we give, and what they promise to deliver, they always find a way to backdoor their shit playstyle in (see also: Find Weakness procs randomly from builders, which also undermines the entire Dance/FW window damage profile).

They are snakes. They aren't actually this dumb. This shit is deliberate and intentional. Fucking snakes.

[coblade14]

Right now subs can do more damage than the other 4 people combined in a dungeon. Safe to say they'll definitely get nerfed.

[Gref]

i expect heavy nerfs incoming, if not i will definitely main a rog this expansion and warlock or spriest as second.

[shoegazing]

i expect heavy nerfs incoming, if not i will definitely main a rog this expansion and warlock or spriest as second.

Play the warlock or spriest. We have enough fotm players here already who don't truly care about the class.

[niztheundead87]

they can go and change the akari legendary without nerfing sub as it is.

[shoegazing]

imagine being this defensive over your class

you know more people playing rogue is good for you right?

fotm players with no loyalty to rogue gameplay concepts have NOT been good for us

they start to give feedback like "Blizzard please make the rotation more like a Demon Hunter. Please give us more cleave damage like I had on X,Y,Z class" and you get a homogenized mess... a class which only resembles a Rogue visually (not even that, sometimes) and has the same dumbed down gameplay as every other class.

[shoegazing]

rogue is fine wym

No, I don't consider it fine that I recognize nothing about the character that I loved for over a decade, that it has become infested with homogenized gameplay, that single target burst and control concepts that defined the class from the beginning have been deemphasized, that the Subtlety class fantasy has become a "nothing personnel kid" abomination, etc.

[RobertoCarlos]

imagine being this defensive over your class

you know more people playing rogue is good for you right?

It doesn't really matter what others play but i'd argue having more people play it makes it more likely to get nerfed/ messed around with by design by community. And it's not like the least played specs get ignored. Brew master and shadow priest seem to get love every expansion and the amount of people playing them is next to nothing compared to druid/hunter

[niztheundead87]

After using Shadowstrike or Cheap Shot, your target suffers a Shadowstrike from the shadows 2 sec later, at 100% effectiveness.
Inventory Type: Head, Hands50% effectiveness as Shadow damage.
Inventory Type: Head, Hands

[shoegazing]

After using Shadowstrike or Cheap Shot, your target suffers a Shadowstrike from the shadows 2 sec later, at 100% effectiveness.
Inventory Type: Head, Hands50% effectiveness as Shadow damage.
Inventory Type: Head, Hands

Not enough of a nerf.

They should have deleted it entirely.

Pressing Cheap Shot and having that trigger an unwanted Shadowstrike 2 seconds later (my target could have trinketed the stun, I could have Blinded them to swap targets) is utterly stupid.

Delete this Legion shit. I want zero reminders of how dogshit that expansion's Rogue design was.

This trait was originally designed in Legion by one of the Diablo team rejects who has no knowledge of the history of Rogue gameplay.

Because of this idiotic, poorly designed trait, base Shadowstrike (should just be Ambush btw... I don't want the "nothing personnel kid" shadow magic spec fantasy for drooling imbeciles) damage will have to be tuned way low to compensate for the possibility of playing a build with this 50% modifier.

Which means anyone not picking this trait will have gimped Droolstrike damage. Utterly stupid design. Devs are brainless idiots.

[Azantrox]

Not enough of a nerf.

They should have deleted it entirely.

Pressing Cheap Shot and having that trigger an unwanted Shadowstrike 2 seconds later (my target could have trinketed the stun, I could have Blinded them to swap targets) is utterly stupid.

Delete this Legion shit. I want zero reminders of how dogshit that expansion's Rogue design was.

You're talking purely from a pvp perspective it seems, so once again, WoW will skills/design will never be balanced around pvp alone. For some sad, for others a blessing. Finding a middleground over the years is too hard for them as well it seems so one aspect of the game is always going to suffer from changes while the other thrives under them.

PS: not saying I don't agree with you, but just being realistic after all those years.