Is this sub thing 4 real...

[shoegazing]

You're talking purely from a pvp perspective it seems, so once again, WoW will skills/design will never be balanced around pvp alone. For some sad, for others a blessing. Finding a middleground over the years is too hard for them as well it seems so one aspect of the game is always going to suffer from changes while the other thrives under them.

PS: not saying I don't agree with you, but just being realistic after all those years.

Subtlety was "the PvP spec" for about 10 years.

It makes ZERO sense to take that away from us and hand it over to PvErs when PvErs already had two other great Rogue specs to choose from.

[ymirsson]

Subtlety was "the PvP spec" for about 10 years.

It makes ZERO sense to take that away from us and hand it over to PvErs when PvErs already had two other great Rogue specs to choose from.

so it's a pve spec now for 5 years? time to adapt, isn't it?

[shoegazing]

so it's a pve spec now for 5 years? time to adapt, isn't it?

I will continue fighting tooth and nail for the Rogue PvP spec.

PvE Rogue audience has 3 specs to choose from atm, while PvP Rogue audience has 0 that are a good fit for the iconic PvP Rogue playstyle.

Don't pretend it's fair or makes any kind of sense. You know this is a load of bullshit.

[Redzonetode]

I will continue fighting tooth and nail for the Rogue PvP spec.

PvE Rogue audience has 3 specs to choose from atm, while PvP Rogue audience has 0 that are a good fit for the iconic PvP Rogue playstyle.

Don't pretend it's fair or makes any kind of sense. You know this is a load of bullshit.

Don’t forget you’re talking to real people on this website. I get that you’re heavily invested and this is upsetting for you, but it’s no reason to lash out at people for it.

[Kaver]

Don’t forget you’re talking to real people on this website. I get that you’re heavily invested and this is upsetting for you, but it’s no reason to lash out at people for it.

This is the general problem with Shoegazing. He often has good points in his arguments but it all gets silenced by the way he talks to other people. Sometimes lack of social skills can be very damaging to the point you're trying to get across.

[shoegazing]

This is the general problem with Shoegazing. He often has good points in his arguments but it all gets silenced by the way he talks to other people. Sometimes lack of social skills can be very damaging to the point you're trying to get across.

The person telling me to adapt to the fact that all 3 Rogue specs are designed for PvE first for 5 years, on the other hand, has great social skills and is certainly not deliberately trolling because of his personal dislike for me and the fact that he knows he can elicit grief.

:^)

At any rate, the point remains the same. Subtlety has a history of being "the PvP Rogue spec" and it's perfectly logical that existing Subtlety players would be upset if it changes direction to be more of a PvE spec, less suited for PvP, when PvE Rogues had other great options while PvP Rogues have none.

PvE Rogues don't need all 3 specs catered to their needs while PvP Rogues get left out to dry. It was obviously a bad business move to take that approach, which Blizzard seems to realize, but they are moving too slowly to correct the mistake.

The reasons for that are likely pretty banal. Their developers are working from home during a global pandemic and it's obvious that the expansion isn't ready (weeks from launch, major systems such as PvP gearing are still totally in flux, covenants and soulbinds receiving last minute changes, encounter design still collecting feedback, class tuning is still in a super raw state as we can see with this 50% nerf, even class features like the supposed pick pockets rework are totally missing in action) but is being rushed to market to satisfy bean counting investors.

Another likely reason is they saw how badly players lashed out after the Legion designs in the first place. They stated multiple times in the Shadowlands class design panels, "we realize it's important not to disrupt players who have found a level of comfort over the years" so it's possible they learned at least something from the Legion tire fire and are approaching these spec changes more gradually over the course of multiple expansions -- but that's a weird area where they should just rip the bandaid off, admit the Legion redesign was a failure on all levels, and get back to the roots of the spec. There is no need to be timid about it. They changed too quickly in a bad direction before, now they are changing too slowly in a good direction.

[ymirsson]

PvE Rogue audience has 3 specs to choose from atm, while PvP Rogue audience has 0 that are a good fit for the iconic PvP Rogue playstyle.

And this is where you're argument falls apart. Iconic playstyle to whom? In what regard? SD still is there for Sub, so when the stereotypical arena dum dum gets wiped of the arena floor, he wont see that it doesn't exactly adhere to your arbitrary whims anymore, he sees a yellow player frame, he sees shadow strikes and shadowdances, he got killed by a sub rogue.

Iconic to you only? Want to make that your argument?
And if there are hordes of "old school hardcore GOAT" sub rogues somewhere, lamenting the loss of "iconic movez", they sure as hell stay stealthed. You're the only one spouting the same propaganda since forever, insulting and looking down on anyone not agreeing with you or daring not to take WoW PvP serious.

[RobertoCarlos]

And this is where you're argument falls apart. Iconic playstyle to whom? In what regard? SD still is there for Sub, so when the stereotypical arena dum dum gets wiped of the arena floor, he wont see that it doesn't exactly adhere to your arbitrary whims anymore, he sees a yellow player frame, he sees shadow strikes and shadowdances, he got killed by a sub rogue.

Iconic to you only? Want to make that your argument?
And if there are hordes of "old school hardcore GOAT" sub rogues somewhere, lamenting the loss of "iconic movez", they sure as hell stay stealthed. You're the only one spouting the same propaganda since forever, insulting and looking down on anyone not agreeing with you or daring not to take WoW PvP serious.

Your* argument. Not you are argument

[ymirsson]

Your* argument. Not you are argument

Gotta love ducking autocorrect.

[shoegazing]

From the official beta Rogue feedback thread:



- - - Updated - - -

And this is where you're argument falls apart. Iconic playstyle to whom? In what regard? SD still is there for Sub, so when the stereotypical arena dum dum gets wiped of the arena floor, he wont see that it doesn't exactly adhere to your arbitrary whims anymore, he sees a yellow player frame, he sees shadow strikes and shadowdances, he got killed by a sub rogue.

Iconic to you only? Want to make that your argument?
And if there are hordes of "old school hardcore GOAT" sub rogues somewhere, lamenting the loss of "iconic movez", they sure as hell stay stealthed. You're the only one spouting the same propaganda since forever, insulting and looking down on anyone not agreeing with you or daring not to take WoW PvP serious.

Here's some more feedback from the beta forums:

From 2800 rated multi-gladiator Res: https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wo...ges/490696/188

From 3k+ rated Nahj (typically one of the top 3 PvP Rogues on US servers, and has been for many expansions): https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wo...es-heartseeker

Guess what they have in common? They both applaud the return to the direction of oldschool Subtlety and want to go even further in this direction. They are also among the most upvoted posts in the thread. There are many others. Shall I link those too?

[ymirsson]

Yeah, link more statistically irrelevant information please. And don't forget to tell us again how much you love the old sub, how anyone else not loving is is a drooling imbecile and that the current state of the spec is an affront to the gods and humanity. I'm thrilled to be allowed to read that.

[Fantazma]

Maybe Shoegazing is not the nicest person on this forum but he is 100% correct in everything he is saying.
For a decade Subtety Rogue was the most important (and fun) alternative to the legitimate Rogue PVP.
This was totally destroyed in Legion and NO ONE asked for it. It has been 4 or 5 years since thousands of Rogues PVP old-school ask to give us what was taken from us and the Feed-Back we give is totally ignored by Blizzard.
The indignation and lack of patience that Shoegazing expresses is completely comprehensive.
Sub is "better" in SL than in BFA but still a long way from the perfection-for-PVP he was before Legion.

(sorry for some mystake, my english is not perfect).

p.s: Today they nerfed Akary's Soul. Let's see what the near future is holding for the Rogue Sub ...

[shoegazing]

Yeah, link more statistically irrelevant information please. And don't forget to tell us again how much you love the old sub, how anyone else not loving is is a drooling imbecile and that the current state of the spec is an affront to the gods and humanity. I'm thrilled to be allowed to read that.

First you said I am all alone in my point of view. Not only did I link feedback of other Rogues, including but not limited to the top ranked PvP Rogues in the game who are aligned with my perspective, even other Rogues in this thread are chiming in to say that they agree.

Calling these pieces of evidence to the contrary "statistically insignificant" is shifting the goalposts, which you are doing because your position is weak. You said I am alone in my point of view, but I do not feel lonely at all.

[LordTakeo]

... idk man, I just love Sub as it currently is in SL, gameplay wise.

Remove the baseline damage boost, so Enveloping shadows doesn't become -stupid-.
If it's -still- too extreme, remove the additional CDR.

Buff the other choices.

But the current gameplay loop, aside of Finding Weakness being up almost every darn time, is fun.
And I like having fun. I liked it already in BFA, but numbers kinda gutted it to a stupidly low performance.

I like to have fun, PvE and PvP.

[RamenBowl]

Remove the baseline damage boost, so Enveloping shadows doesn't become -stupid-.
If it's -still- too extreme, remove the additional CDR.

Enveloping Shadows is already stupid. With it, you can be in Shadow Dance almost constantly; that's bad. Dance needs to return to one charge. The 2nd Dance charge should be removed from Enveloping Shadows entirely and its CDR should be reduced to an additional 0.5 seconds, down from 1. Backstab needs to be buffed so Sub feels good even outside of Dance. This would make that talent row much healthier by letting us choose between one amplified Dance or one frequent Dance. Two charges equals too much burst and stuns. Less Cheap Shots would also make more room for Gouge to return.

[shoegazing]

... idk man, I just love Sub as it currently is in SL, gameplay wise.

Remove the baseline damage boost, so Enveloping shadows doesn't become -stupid-.
If it's -still- too extreme, remove the additional CDR.

Buff the other choices.

But the current gameplay loop, aside of Finding Weakness being up almost every darn time, is fun.
And I like having fun. I liked it already in BFA, but numbers kinda gutted it to a stupidly low performance.

I like to have fun, PvE and PvP.

Indeed, Shadow Dance doesn't need a damage boost. Find Weakness provides that.

And yeah, Find Weakness shouldn't be up constantly. It should be applied from openers from Stealth and Dance, and it should be powerful.

Enveloping Shadows as a talent undermines everything Blizzard SAID that they would give us in Shadowlands. The extra charge and CDR are a playstyle problem, while the damage buff on Shadow Dance makes this talent too strong and pushes its worse playstyle over the top.

- - - Updated - - -

Enveloping Shadows is already stupid. With it, you can be in Shadow Dance almost constantly; that's bad. Dance needs to return to one charge. The 2nd Dance charge should be removed from Enveloping Shadows entirely and its CDR should be reduced to an additional 0.5 seconds, down from 1. Backstab needs to be buffed so Sub feels good even outside of Dance. This would make that talent row much healthier by letting us choose between one amplified Dance or one frequent Dance. Two charges equals too much burst and stuns. Less Cheap Shots would also make more room for Gouge to return.

Yeah, exactly. We need Gouge back to diversify our tools and make a more thoughtful playstyle vs. dumb cheap shot / shadowstrike spam.

And the CDR is mathematically an even bigger problem than the 2nd charge, although the 2nd charge has drawn more community ire while it's really the CDR that is most impactful on driving Dance uptime too high.

It was beautiful and perfect when it was no charges and no cooldown reduction... just 1min Dance CD and weaving in Vanish / Prep Vanish / Restealths to get FW windows otherwise. The perfect hit and run symphony of pooling, burst, and control.

[Neuroticaine]

I will continue fighting tooth and nail for the Rogue PvP spec.

PvE Rogue audience has 3 specs to choose from atm, while PvP Rogue audience has 0 that are a good fit for the iconic PvP Rogue playstyle.

Don't pretend it's fair or makes any kind of sense. You know this is a load of bullshit.

Every class should have exactly zero "PvP" specs. Every spec should be viable in all forms of content.

[shoegazing]

Every class should have exactly zero "PvP" specs. Every spec should be viable in all forms of content.

So, people who happily played Subtlety in PvP for 10 years, while PvE Rogues focused on 2 other specs, should have their spec taken away from them and given to an audience that already had great Rogue choices? That is fair and logical? I think not.

These specs aren't designed in a vacuum. The history matters. The context matters. The self selection process of the audiences, over a decade period, matters. Period.

It's not just an abstract discussion on a whiteboard. It's somebody's RPG character in which they invested years of time and effort. That MUST be respected or else it's a failure of the developers that builds player resentment and splinters communities. That is exactly why we have seen such massive backlash towards class design since Legion.

[Gref]

my apologies for trying to change my one and only played character of 16 years...tauren warrior.
god sake, I just wanted to change something that can let me get into m+ , easy invites. my time is very limited.
if rog dps is s tier, it is easy invite together with the unlocking, stealth utilities it also brings.

I am 33 and getting into group takes time, it hurts me so much to leave my warrior, the only character that I didn't even change its appearance once inthe barber shop. but i have to make a logical decision. that logical decision depends on the logs and trends.

Sub rog atm is absolute destroyer together with affliction. if no nerfs, i will be rolling a rog, unfortunately.

[Volatilis]

my apologies for trying to change my one and only played character of 16 years...tauren warrior.
god sake, I just wanted to change something that can let me get into m+ , easy invites. my time is very limited.
if rog dps is s tier, it is easy invite together with the unlocking, stealth utilities it also brings.

I am 33 and getting into group takes time, it hurts me so much to leave my warrior, the only character that I didn't even change its appearance once inthe barber shop. but i have to make a logical decision. that logical decision depends on the logs and trends.

Sub rog atm is absolute destroyer together with affliction. if no nerfs, i will be rolling a rog, unfortunately.

its way to early to doom and gloom about class/specs. Just play what you wanna play. People are gonna invite the dps with the highest ilvl and RiO anyway not just spam groups full of rogues because one spec has bugs and a legendary over performing and tuning isnt close to being done.