Is this sub thing 4 real...

[msdos]

Make friends or find a guild and you can play whatever you want.

If you can kill the bosses with any choice, why is your decision performance based? It doesn't make sense. People's thought process behind this doesn't make sense to me. If you don't pick the M+ Covenants, you can still kill raid bosses. If you don't pick the single target Covenants you can still do 10s in M+. I'm confused.

[ymirsson]

First you said I am all alone in my point of view. Not only did I link feedback of other Rogues, including but not limited to the top ranked PvP Rogues in the game who are aligned with my perspective, even other Rogues in this thread are chiming in to say that they agree.

Calling these pieces of evidence to the contrary "statistically insignificant" is shifting the goalposts, which you are doing because your position is weak. You said I am alone in my point of view, but I do not feel lonely at all.

I'm not shifting any goal posts. You say things like iconic as if there were no other points of view. As if sub rogues were like in your imaginative "golden era" and then, suddenly, yesterday, some random dev decided to change all that, just to piss YOU off. Noone did. Times change, games change, design principles change, only you don't.

There is a name for that, it is called "the way of the dodo".

[shoegazing]

I'm not shifting any goal posts. You say things like iconic as if there were no other points of view. As if sub rogues were like in your imaginative "golden era" and then, suddenly, yesterday, some random dev decided to change all that, just to piss YOU off. Noone did. Times change, games change, design principles change, only you don't.

There is a name for that, it is called "the way of the dodo".

Of course there are other points of view but they aren't coming from people who happily mained Subtlety for 10 years prior to the Legion redesign.

You are completely ignoring the self selection process players used to find the specs that suit their playstyle.

So when one spec has a very unique playstyle, that is offered by no other spec in the game, and players who prefer it gravitate to that spec over 10 years, THEN the developers randomly decide to change it completely, for the sake of another audience that was already playing other specs, the first audience is going to be (justifiably) upset. This is OBVIOUS.

You main an Outlaw Rogue and you barely participate in PvP content, yet you are too selfish to just step back and say "PvP Rogues should be able to keep their spec". Having 2 out of 3 Rogue specs catered just towards you and players like you isn't good enough, huh, you are so greedy and selfish and inconsiderate that you need to make it 3 out of 3 ?

Here's an idea: go post about your Outlaw Rogue.

[ymirsson]

Upset, yes. Justified? Debatable. But you're not winning any debate by calling people drooling imbeciles.

[Lodreh]

...really, I mean, I am glad that ppls who love to play sub will finally enjoy, but I can not stand that spec...so what now...fck...

I enjoy Subtlety Rogue regardless where they place on a chart so not sure what you are trying to say there buddy.

[glowpipe]

Sin in SL is same as it's now basically, Sub on the other hand has several possibilities and def not as easy as sin if you want to play it right. The only reason people feel like it's so easy is the bugs that are currently in place. Once those are taken away, it won't be as "faceroll" as some claim it to be.

so what are those bugs and how does it make the spec faceroll ?

[shoegazing]

Upset, yes. Justified? Debatable. But you're not winning any debate by calling people drooling imbeciles.

An offhand remark about the target audience for the new spec fantasy is not an attempt to "win a debate".

Anyway, here's the cringey, stupid nu-Subtlety class fantasy in a nutshell:



And:



Replacing Subtlety Rogue with that ^^ kind of garbage was always going to result in extreme animosity and conflict. Blizzard's product managers are morons for deciding to go this route. Think of all the dev hours they wasted on it, and all the dev hours they are now spending on undoing it piece by piece -- all of that effort could have gone towards making content instead.

At any rate, you don't even play Subtlety and you likely never did for any length of time.... go post about your Outlaw Rogue or your Deathknight.

[Celfydd]

One subtlety legendary's effects does not invalidate the entire spec for PvP.

If you choose to PvP then you will choose one of the many other legendaries that has the effect you want.

[shoegazing]

One subtlety legendary's effects does not invalidate the entire spec for PvP.

If you choose to PvP then you will choose one of the many other legendaries that has the effect you want.

Nevermind for a moment the fact that Legendaries shouldn't be active in PvP to begin with, the one I would want to play with is Mantle because it brings some concept of hit and run gameplay even despite the disappointing state of Find Weakness.

With that said, if Akaari's Cringefantasy Fragment remains so overtuned it will be the only choice for competitive play, Droolstrike will have its damage tuned according to that extra 50%, and all other choices will be non-viable.

The bigger nerf so far is the fact that it no longer generates combo points. Hopefully that will stop pushing the Enveloping Shadows build over the top -- nobody wants to play that garbage in PvP as its playstyle (regardless of numbers) is pure PvE.

Hopefully the nerf is enough to render it obsolete. We'll find out in time.

[ymirsson]

An offhand remark about the target audience for the new spec fantasy is not an attempt to "win a debate".
.

So you were insulting people just for fun? Was it nothin' personal, kid?

[shoegazing]

So you were insulting people just for fun? Was it nothin' personal, kid?

The intentionally incorrect spelling "personnel" is part of the meme. You're doing it wrong.

Anyway, would you like it better if I were nicer to all the fans* of Subtlety Rogue: Coldsteel the Hedgeheg Edition ?

* They barely even exist by the way. Very few people play Subtlety atm, and many of those who do want it to go back to how it was before Legion. If the goal was, as Celestalon stated on the Legion alpha forums, "to make Subtlety appeal to a wider audience than before" then the developers failed miserably in achieving that goal. All they succeeded in was pissing off the audience that Subtlety already had, which is exactly why every change to the spec since Legion launch has rolled back more and more of the changes.

[ymirsson]

* They barely even exist by the way. Very few people play Subtlety atm,

And that's a design problem, not a numbers one?

sorry for ruining your meme. it was nothing personal, kid.

[shoegazing]

And that's a design problem, not a numbers one?

The idea that numbers are what they are by accident is a dumb myth. Jay Gill ("Hamlet" on Elitist Jerks, "Sigma" is their blue name on the forums) has a mathematics degree from MIT. The only reason Subtlety does worse numbers than other specs currently is that the devs want it to do worse numbers. You should ask yourself why is that the case? Be sure to consider historical examples like WoD Demonology Warlock and the explanation they provided ("we undertuned it intentionally because we didn't like the Metamorphosis playstyle and planned a major rework coinciding with building the Demon Hunter class") as you make your conclusions.

[Coldkil]

As usual, thread derailed into useless bickering for the usual moot points. Closing.