Is there really a Classic WoW period: Vanilla-WotLK?

[BSwitch]

I've seen a few people claim that there is "general consensus" that WoW Classic is actually a WoW period that includes Vanilla, TBC and WotLK. Is it though?

TBC and Wrath introduced 2 of the worst features of WoW: flying mounts and LFG tool. That's where, arguably, "the decline" started.

All of a sudden claiming that Classic period is a thing is a bit disingenuous.

Clearly this is a remarkably subjective statement to make. Flying mounts and LFG are not "2 of the worst features". In TBC and Wrath, flying mounts weren't just a way to speed past content. The speed of regular flying mounts made them actually less useful than normal ground mounts in many situations - however, the landscape was built in such a way that they were required to access certain content. In this way, flying was used properly, imo. Raids that you could not get to solo without a flying mount acted as something of a content pacing tool, and gave the player something to work towards. The problem with flying started in Cata when you could fly from day 1, and then in subsequent expansions they never embraced flying again, so it did just become a content-skip tool. However, there was plenty of world pvp, for those that wanted it, and in those early days flying wasn't quite the rough thing it became later.

LFG likewise wasn't terrible in the beginning. LFG wasn't LFR, and it did, at the time, allow so many more players to do so many more dungeons. Yes, there were bad points, but that can happen even in regular Classic dungeons today - plus, the available pool that cares to do dungeons now is pretty slim. Having an LFG would increase that pool and get you in quicker. Yes, it can take away from the more social aspects of group formation and bonds created, but my experience in Classic at this stage of the game is kind of already like that. Lots of people just doing their thing - maybe they have guilds, maybe they'll chat in world, but honestly I wouldn't be opposed to an LFG at this point. I mean, I still probably wouldn't like it in Classic, but by Wrath, there wasn't any huge problem with it.

As others have said, yes, Vanilla-Wrath represents a Classic period. This isn't a sudden realization - many of us have recognized this for years. My eras of WoW go as such:
WoW 1/Classic - Vanilla-Wrath
Wow 1.5 - Cata
WoW 2 - MoP-Legion
WoW 3 - BFA-SL

Era 1, is everything pre-cata. The world is the same as at launch, the talents are the same, but expanded, from launch, the playstyle for most classes/specs remains pretty similar, etc.

Era 2, Cata changed everything. The world, the talents, massive gameplay overhauls (Holy Power for Paladins, talent trees that disable PoM/Pyro, and other hybrid builds). This setup a new time for WoW. Cata stands on its own for me because it's a bridge expansion. Talents change again after this expac, builds/playstyle evolves, there's no narrative continuity - Cata is really a disruptive event that allows the story to proceed.

Era 3, MoP-Legion - this is more a narrative period. We have Garrosh as a baddie, who gets help to escape into the past and hooks up with Grommash and Gul'dan, the latter of whom becomes a baddie who escapes judgement to go into Legion before meeting his end. Oh, and we also find the Titans and "defeat" Sargeras. This is a huge narrative-focused period in WoW history, and it closes a pretty solid chapter of lore.

Era 4, BFA and beyond - this is where they're more focused on creating new lore, systems, gameplay. It has yet to be seen how this era shakes out.

For me, Vanilla-Wrath was amazing, and I fully expect that they'll come through with Classic versions of these games. Whether they venture beyond is hard to say.

[Kralljin]

so your point is what? That it is not organizational nightmare = casual?

You'd be surprised how many people flat out refuse raiding because it involves a fixed schedule.

WotLK was out when everyone and their mother were on coms anyway so if they maintained the difficulty at the same level as classic

Because the fact that Blizzard nullified Threat as a mechanic,Wotlk heroics were a shadow of their TBC counterpart and "Just AoE it" became the MO doesn't somehow tarnish your own narrative?

Wotlk lowered the barrier for a lot of players, simply because now a portion of content came into existence that is harder doesn't take away from that.

Raids were not undertuned except for naxx and that was still arguably harder than MC. Btw Onyxia 3 man kill says hello. Or the more recent one - naked raid. :>

Again, you're using a 2020 mindset to look at 2005 content.

And by the way, the naked raid was done with a full caster group and a ton of world buffs & consumables, which almost entirely negates the fact that they were naked.

WotLK gear was not worse than PvE gear for PvP except for Shadowmourne and one trinket.

Going by the context of this discussion, you should have realized that this is obviously about PvP gear in PvE, not the other way around.

You seem to, for some reason, put the thing that people can enjoy raiding as a negative thing.

The addition of multiple layers of difficulty simply takes things away from a game, it's that simple.

Not to mention that Wotlk also kicked off the "Play the patch" mentality, so everybody no longer has to progress through previous tiers but can just jump into the newest one, while the older ones get abandoned.

[Utrrabbit]

I've seen a few people claim that there is "general consensus" that WoW Classic is actually a WoW period that includes Vanilla, TBC and WotLK. Is it though?

TBC and Wrath introduced 2 of the worst features of WoW: flying mounts and LFG tool. That's where, arguably, "the decline" started.

All of a sudden claiming that Classic period is a thing is a bit disingenuous.

Literally nothinh wrong with flying mounts and anyone who says otherwise is utterly wrong. They do noy evem deserve an opinion on the matter.

[erifwodahs]

@Kralljin Why would you do PvP to get PvE items? That was only true in the case of Vanilla and it was most skilless pvp grind ever. TBC PvP was PvP gear too.
Also TBC had badges system, where you could just purchase 141ilvl items by farming some HC dungeons.
Vanilla remade pre-raid dungeon sets few times and ZG was doable in full blues/greens which could save you doing old raids and just jump into AQ. There is no denial that gear reset now happens every patch which is not appealing for some it was not like you could not skip old patch content.

Additional multiple layers does not only take... While it takes exclusivity, which tbf wouldn't be much anyway because raids would be way easier it adds content for friends and family guilds and adds content for people who really like to be tested and also creates more of a progression for casual raiders where they progress through HC and then can try themselves out in Mythic.
Back in the day it was cool to see a raider because I did not even know how to get into that raid. Now? Seeing Sulfuras or Thunderfurry is as cool as seeing someone on a mythic boss mount. Which is.... not that impressive or at least not many care about that.

[Kralljin]

@Kralljin Why would you do PvP to get PvE items? That was only true in the case of Vanilla and it was most skilless pvp grind ever. TBC PvP was PvP gear too.

PvP Items in TBC did not receive a penalty for having a PvP stats, it promoted the concept of crossplay that someone can put their finger into every pie to progress their character.

The obvious benefit of this system was that people who engage in every aspect of this game are slightly ahead and for people who did not partake in a certain activity (such as raiding) also had another avenue of gearing themselves.

Also TBC had badges system, where you could just purchase 141ilvl items by farming some HC dungeons.

Considering TBC heroics were a bit harder than their Wotlk counterparts, that makes a difference.

Vanilla remade pre-raid dungeon sets few times and ZG was doable in full blues/greens which could save you doing old raids and just jump into AQ. There is no denial that gear reset now happens every patch which is not appealing for some it was not like you could not skip old patch content.

If you truly do not spot the difference, i don't think we should continue this discussion.

There are items from MC / BWL that still have value, the BWL Trinkets (DFT,Rejuv Gem, Nelth Tear) that last into Naxx or are even BiS for the entirety of Classic, same goes with a handful of items from MC (Onslaught Belt, Living Growth Spaulders, etc..)
These items last beyond the next raid tier, they are still powerful.

In Retail, Mythic loot from the previous tier is equivalent to Normal Mode from the current tier, meaning that just by doing Heroic (not even the highest difficulty) you basically replace every item.

There is a good reason why people are still doing MC / BWL in Classic while Raids such as Uldir or BoD have been abandoned the moment the next tier came out.

Additional multiple layers does not only take...

The layers of multiple difficulty do take away.

First off, you burn out on content much faster, because especially early into a tier, even a Mythic raider runs normal / heroic for upgrades, meaning that you clear the raid much more often than with just one difficulty.
Not to mention that it also diminishes the feeling of accomplishment whenever you kill a boss, previously you killed the boss for the first time and were happy about it.
Now you kill that boss for the Xth time, except now it's just on a higher difficulty with the identical loot just having slightly higher Ilvl.

[Mosha]

@Kralljin Why would you do PvP to get PvE items? That was only true in the case of Vanilla and it was most skilless pvp grind ever. TBC PvP was PvP gear too.

What he is saying is that pvp gear in tbc was a lot better in pve than wotlk pvp gear was in pve. Which is 100% true. I raided most of my raids in my pvp gear for the time, simply because it was on par with the pve gear basically and I was guaranteed to get it unlike the raid drops. Obviously once I could receive the pve pieces I took them because of set bonuses, but rolling into karazhan with a full glad set really put you on par with someone who was in mostly pve gear, and it put you way ahead of someone who went in their with pve heroic gear.

https://tbc-twinhead.twinstar.cz/?item=27469
https://tbc-twinhead.twinstar.cz/?item=29033

Look at the glad ele shaman chest piece and the t4 chest piece, they are almost identical with a few points shifted from one stat to another.

Vanilla remade pre-raid dungeon sets few times and ZG was doable in full blues/greens which could save you doing old raids and just jump into AQ. There is no denial that gear reset now happens every patch which is not appealing for some it was not like you could not skip old patch content.

I'm not sure how long your two's conversation has been going but from what I read he is referring to tbc, at least in his last post. You 100% could not skip past patch raid content in order to get to the current stuff, at least until really really really late into tbc, which at that point was basically turning into wrath anyway.

Additional multiple layers does not only take... While it takes exclusivity, which tbf wouldn't be much anyway because raids would be way easier it adds content for friends and family guilds and adds content for people who really like to be tested and also creates more of a progression for casual raiders where they progress through HC and then can try themselves out in Mythic.
Back in the day it was cool to see a raider because I did not even know how to get into that raid. Now? Seeing Sulfuras or Thunderfurry is as cool as seeing someone on a mythic boss mount. Which is.... not that impressive or at least not many care about that.

Multiple layers for raids is a trash mechanic IMO. I hated it in wotlk and I hate it now. There are plenty of options for casual guilds on a platform similar to tbc. You start off with easy-ish raids on the first tier, with a mix of quick single boss raids, and a big longer raid... you progress into gradually more difficult stuff as the raid tiers progress and so forth.

If the casual guilds get to a point where they want to try the more difficult stuff it will always be available for them, and if they tend to struggle on some pieces it simply just creates more content for them to push towards.

This mindset of 'let everyone see and finish every raid no matter the skill level' just goes against the basic idea of an mmo in general IMO.

If you want to see the last boss, you should go and push yourself to see that last and final boss. Making an 'easier' version of it just makes the whole raid tier a joke. Additionally when you do this, it instantly makes all past raids obsolete. So now you're stuck in this play by the patch scenario the other poster was mentioning. It's just unfun all around.

[loras]

I've seen a few people claim that there is "general consensus" that WoW Classic is actually a WoW period that includes Vanilla, TBC and WotLK. Is it though?

TBC and Wrath introduced 2 of the worst features of WoW: flying mounts and LFG tool. That's where, arguably, "the decline" started.

All of a sudden claiming that Classic period is a thing is a bit disingenuous.

Bullshit, flying mounts forced them to create much more interesting worlds while making them far more interesting to explore. Additionally the only world pvp it disabled was ganking, as plenty has been fought about stuff that was worthwhile (though mind you that that does not mean i'd want flying everywhere; there's a time and place for anything). The only mistake they made with it is that they made it too static, there's no meaningful effects of even something so simple as gravity, but there would be plenty of options for introducing interesting stuff with, say, momentum, wind or the original ideas regarding flying combat (see i.e. the first trailers for flying in tbc).

Additionally LFG tool is a great tool for bypassing entitled semi-social retards at its best and for content tourism at its worst, the people sperging over that either aren't good enough to avoid it (it is entirely avoidable) or for some strange reason enjoy whining about stuff that doen't affect them but allows people to play differently from them - despite the fact that it does not even give worthwhile rewards.
No LFG hating is a bit like hating the end of master looter - it allows cliques to be bypassed and people with severely unappetizing personalities to be confronted with the fact that people would rather avoid dealing with them if at all possible (and then some of them complain that the game has become "unsocial" or too soloable).

No where it did go wrong is Cataclysm, they started taking the epeens far too serious with their initial tedious and unrewarding dungeons, wasting everybody's time and patience and making sure that the most relaxing and enjoyable parts of the game became absolutely worthless. And mind you that this is not saying that going to the other end of the retarded spectrum as in WoD is any good; the best way to avoid grind is to make sure that it does not feel like a grind at all by making it fun and appropriately reward, rather than to take it out entirely.


Oh and besides that vanilla-tbc-wotlk still has that old pre-cataclysm world intact that many people enjoy, so even that alone sets it apart as an era in WoW.

[Mosha]

Bullshit, flying mounts forced them to create much more interesting worlds while making them far more interesting to explore. Additionally the only world pvp it disabled was ganking, as plenty has been fought about stuff that was worthwhile (though mind you that that does not mean i'd want flying everywhere; there's a time and place for anything). The only mistake they made with it is that they made it too static, there's no meaningful effects of even something so simple as gravity, but there would be plenty of options for introducing interesting stuff with, say, momentum, wind or the original ideas regarding flying combat (see i.e. the first trailers for flying in tbc).

Additionally LFG tool is a great tool for bypassing entitled semi-social retards at its best and for content tourism at its worst, the people sperging over that either aren't good enough to avoid it (it is entirely avoidable) or for some strange reason enjoy whining about stuff that doen't affect them but allows people to play differently from them - despite the fact that it does not even give worthwhile rewards.

No LFG hating is a bit like hating the end of master looter - it allows cliques to be bypassed and people with severely unappetizing personalities to be confronted with the fact that people would rather avoid dealing with them if at all possible.

No where it did go wrong is Cataclysm, they started taking the epeens far too serious with their initial tedious and unrewarding dungeons, wasting everybody's time and patience and making sure that the most relaxing and enjoyable parts of the game became absolutely worthless. And mind you that this is not saying that going to the other end of the retarded spectrum as in WoD is any good; the best way to avoid grind is to make sure that it does not feel like a grind at all by making it fun and appropriately reward, rather than to take it out entirely.


Oh and besides that vanilla-tbc-wotlk still has that old pre-cataclysm world intact that many people enjoy, so even that alone sets it apart as an era in WoW.

Cataclysm did so much wrong with me that it hurts when people don't see it. First of all I am just going to say, at the VERY start of cata they had really good dungeons IMO. They were difficult, they were rewarding, it felt REALLY good to finish heroic dungeons. Then those got nerfed....bad...and it went back into the wotlk version of aoeing and queing for dungeons with randoms.

IMO when dungeon finder came out in wotlk I personally found the aoe strat with randoms alright...why? Because it was at the very end of the expansion. Dungeons weren't current content at that time for someone who was really geared so blowing through them made sense. But when they nerfed the cata dungeons? Those dungeons were current content AT THAT TIME. So turning the current content from a difficult rewarding instance into an absolute joke when it should be one of the harder forms of content for that time sort of sucked.

Then they released LFR....raiding to me was honestly dead as I knew it. The raids were starting to feel less and less of a group effort and more and more of a just bring yourself into this random group, mute all, and just do the dance.

But the biggest and most important change, to me at least, was the change in how they dealt with pvp pacing. Pvp pacing in all of wow at that point was fairly fast paced. Could games last a long time? Sure, they could if players were really good. But most of the time, if you had a bad player vs a good one, the good one was demolishing the bad one in a global or two.

They increased health pools by a LOT making your damage/health ratio on your spells look closer to what it looks like today where people just do NOT die unless you pop every single little cooldown on them. They also changed resil to instead act as a crit/DoT/mana drain reduction into a full blown damage % reduction.

There whole philosophy was "You can play more strategically with longer fights" but in reality it just meant "You can get away with way more mistakes and even killing a bad player will take a lot longer than normal". Which I think just changed and ruined the whole dynamic of arena as a whole.

Were there OP comps in wotlk? Of course. Were some insanely frustrating to play against and just completely countered you? Of course there were. But at the very least the games were quick, and if you got good you could still catch someone who had a bad trinket and completely destroy them in seconds if you were good enough.

Not this nonsense of "OH MAN THIS GUY MESSED UP AND BLEW HIS TRINKET AND BUBBLE.....now we just have to wait until our cds come back up in 3 minutes to kill him".

[InfiniteCharger]

Another thing about that "classic" era is that between Vanilla ... WOTLK a lot of players were still new to the game and in the process of leveling. Plenty of folks never got to max level before TBC and there were still many who never made it to max level for Wrath. A lot of that had to do with the amount of time and dedication to do thngs well, especially if you wanted not only to get to max level but get geared. After Wrath the game started to become more streamlined to the point where casual players could easily get purple gear without the time and dedication. This primarily came via the introduction of LFR and the fact that the leveling experience and number of dungeons and other content started to decrease.

You could also say that the classic era from Vanilla to Wrath was the end of expansions with large numbers of large dungeons and raids as part of the primary content. TBC had 18 dungeons, while Wrath had 16 and BFA only had 10. From Cataclysm to Draenor introduced various kinds of "alternate" daily activities to the game. In Cataclysm you had the various rep grinds that rewarded gear (and hence the tabards for dungeon rep) in Pandaria you had dailies, farming and the timeless isle. Then came Draenor which had the garrison, ship yard, dailies, repeatable world quests and mission tables.

And of course the next "phase" after than was the Legion to now phase with all these alternate progression systems such as artifacts, azerite and conduits.

[loras]

Cataclysm did so much wrong with me that it hurts when people don't see it. First of all I am just going to say, at the VERY start of cata they had really good dungeons IMO. They were difficult, they were rewarding, it felt REALLY good to finish heroic dungeons. Then those got nerfed....bad...and it went back into the wotlk version of aoeing and queing for dungeons with randoms.

IMO when dungeon finder came out in wotlk I personally found the aoe strat with randoms alright...why? Because it was at the very end of the expansion. Dungeons weren't current content at that time for someone who was really geared so blowing through them made sense. But when they nerfed the cata dungeons? Those dungeons were current content AT THAT TIME. So turning the current content from a difficult rewarding instance into an absolute joke when it should be one of the harder forms of content for that time sort of sucked.

Then they released LFR....raiding to me was honestly dead as I knew it. The raids were starting to feel less and less of a group effort and more and more of a just bring yourself into this random group, mute all, and just do the dance.

But the biggest and most important change, to me at least, was the change in how they dealt with pvp pacing. Pvp pacing in all of wow at that point was fairly fast paced. Could games last a long time? Sure, they could if players were really good. But most of the time, if you had a bad player vs a good one, the good one was demolishing the bad one in a global or two.

They increased health pools by a LOT making your damage/health ratio on your spells look closer to what it looks like today where people just do NOT die unless you pop every single little cooldown on them. They also changed resil to instead act as a crit/DoT/mana drain reduction into a full blown damage % reduction.

There whole philosophy was "You can play more strategically with longer fights" but in reality it just meant "You can get away with way more mistakes and even killing a bad player will take a lot longer than normal". Which I think just changed and ruined the whole dynamic of arena as a whole.

Were there OP comps in wotlk? Of course. Were some insanely frustrating to play against and just completely countered you? Of course there were. But at the very least the games were quick, and if you got good you could still catch someone who had a bad trinket and completely destroy them in seconds if you were good enough.

Not this nonsense of "OH MAN THIS GUY MESSED UP AND BLEW HIS TRINKET AND BUBBLE.....now we just have to wait until our cds come back up in 3 minutes to kill him".

Aye, at the start they were good, but a little while into it it just got tedious and terrible, i can't say i didn't understand that they went that way when they did but the challenge should have been more worthwhile i seem to recall. It was the expansion i stopped, later heard that Firelands was great but i just couldn't be arsed anymore 'till the end of WoD (great expansion for a quick playthrough i might add, but that's kinda its issue i suppose).
Their zones were pitiful memes - and i like memes! Just not too much, not like that, not so so terrible... Uldum was completely wasted in my opinion.

I never knew the start of LFR, but i get it as content tourism or as training wheels. Frankly raiding has always felt like that, but ironically moreso in guilds where you have to suffer fools who mess up time and time again for the sake of some leader's preferences... i loved ulduar, i loved karazhan, but other than that there was so much i'd rather avoid. In that sense i prefer present day raiding, where the people who don't want to think have a place to go to, and the ones that sort of try are there for normal pugs, interesting people for heroic pugs and weird semi-competent people for mythic pugs.

And god yes you remind me of the pvp, the bread and butter in terms of replayability of this game... it got so goddamned sluggish now, yes, you're right oh god the memories... gah, it was a good choice to quit the game, a better choice to return for legion and a poor choice to play so much of BfA.
But yeah, even pvp became stale thanks to that, i recall even battlegrounds being affected.

And yeah i agree completely, it was part of the fun to play a non-meta comp but to specialise in countering some of the prevalent meta comps, but whenever i saw a shadowmourne or something i just knew that victory was going to be unlikely ^^'
But hey, part of the game, no biggie if the games don't feel like choking on stale bread for an hour.

[ThrashMetalFtw]

yes man, its obvious. even tho some can argue shit started in wrath, it was still closer to vanilla and tbc than cata was and onwards, later expacs introduced worse shit

You either include Cata in your list, or you exclude WotLK.

WotLK has nothing in common with TBC, but A LOT in common with Cata. In fact, if you compare each expansion to the ones immediately before and after, WotLK and Cata are the two expansions that look the most similair, and it's not even a contest.

[Mosha]

You either include Cata in your list, or you exclude WotLK.

WotLK has nothing in common with TBC, but A LOT in common with Cata. In fact, if you compare each expansion to the ones immediately before and after, WotLK and Cata are the two expansions that look the most similair, and it's not even a contest.

Disagree...kind of.... Wotlk IMO was it's own incarnation. Just because it was so far removed from both xpacs surrounding it. I wouldn't say wotlk is closer to cata than tbc by any means, but I'm also not going to disagree that they were all pretty far apart.

The fact alone that cata completely destroyed the zones, the massive changes to pvp balancing, and the massive changes to pve with things like LFR and such I wouldn't say cata is closer to wotlk.

Wotlk did get pretty far away from tbc because of the removal of tier progression and obviously the DK class addition. But cata just took the changes wotlk made to tbc, ramped it up to 1000% and just crashed the game into a wall.

[erifwodahs]

PvP Items in TBC did not receive a penalty for having a PvP stats, it promoted the concept of crossplay that someone can put their finger into every pie to progress their character.

Sure mate. Resilience.. PvE gear had way better stats for PvE, more intellect, spirit, spell power and so on while PvP gear had more stamina and resilience.. I am now not sure if you have played the game back then.

Items lasting long into other patches are obvious random stuff which happened because devs had no clue about itemization in classic. Same as wearing other armour type should have not been a thing.

Lets agree to disagree. "Classic" WoW for me will be Vanilla-WotLK because of leveling and talent systems. WotLK being peak of it. If you look from raiding perspective "Classic" would only regard to classic, TBC would be a new category because of size/badges/mechanics and WotLK was first iteration of modern raiding.

Also single difficulty in PvE content was only like 3.5-4 years max while we had current raid system since wotlk and it has been improved with better lockout options for lower difficulties over expansions.
Plus TBC had 2 raids who only had 10 man mode. Classic had two raids with 20 people mode so in some regard, TBC was making raids casual.

[Kralljin]

Sure mate. Resilience.. PvE gear had way better stats for PvE, more intellect, spirit, spell power and so on while PvP gear had more stamina and resilience.. I am now not sure if you have played the game back then.

Yeah, seems like you didn't play.

https://tbcdb.com/?item=24547 (S1 Gladiator Warrior Pants)
vs.
https://tbcdb.com/?item=29022 (T4 Dps Warrior Pants)

Check their stats and tell me how you can come to the conclusion that the PvP ones are straight worse than the Tier set ones for PvE.
Was good it good to wear PvP items on every single piece?
Fuck no, but a lot of the individual pieces were equivalent to their PvE counterparts.

Items lasting long into other patches are obvious random stuff which happened because devs had no clue about itemization in classic. Same as wearing other armour type should have not been a thing.

...That's why the same thing also happened in TBC, right?

And that crossdressing lasted into Cata by the way, this wasn't a Vanilla specific thing.
If you go into TBC with the mindset your Warrior will be exclusively wearing Plate pieces, you're going to be wrong.

Lets agree to disagree. "Classic" WoW for me will be Vanilla-WotLK because of leveling and talent systems. WotLK being peak of it. If you look from raiding perspective "Classic" would only regard to classic, TBC would be a new category because of size/badges/mechanics and WotLK was first iteration of modern raiding.

There is a pretty broad consensus within the community that Wotlk was the turning point for the game, in particular as far as raiding is concerned.

That consensus isn't just a myth, it exists for a reason, players felt that change over a decade ago.
If you want to disagree, whatever, but that's not one of those things that's merely an "opinion" thing.

[erifwodahs]

What he is saying is that pvp gear in tbc was a lot better in pve than wotlk pvp gear was in pve. Which is 100% true. I raided most of my raids in my pvp gear for the time, simply because it was on par with the pve gear basically and I was guaranteed to get it unlike the raid drops. Obviously once I could receive the pve pieces I took them because of set bonuses, but rolling into karazhan with a full glad set really put you on par with someone who was in mostly pve gear, and it put you way ahead of someone who went in their with pve heroic gear.

https://tbc-twinhead.twinstar.cz/?item=27469
https://tbc-twinhead.twinstar.cz/?item=29033

Look at the glad ele shaman chest piece and the t4 chest piece, they are almost identical with a few points shifted from one stat to another.

"few points".. but that is 100% not true. PvP gear was worse for PvE event if you could raid in it. I mean you could raid in WotLK PvP gear too. A thing that you could do that does not mean it was on par. PvE gear did not suffer from excessive stamina at cost of main stat and other stats did not suffer for having resilience. I won't even go into set bonuses. Which is more resilience.. Plus that is T4 vs S1 set. Greater the tier/season - bigger the sacrifice because you get more resilience and if you put value in % anyone in PvE gear will perform significantly better than a guy in pvp gear in any longer fights where mana might be an issue. And While in PvP you could kick some ass with PvE gear, no-resilience guys would die really quickly if they are a focus target of a PvP player.

Multiple difficulty modes, while is not the most elegant thing is needed to challenge PvE players. Starting expansion with "entry" level bosses is meh (mythic EN/WotLK Naxx was a meme) Good thing we had more raids than just those . WoW is still alive because it is best PvE game in the industry since... ever so it's doing it right.

[Mosha]

"few points".. but that is 100% not true. PvP gear was worse for PvE event if you could raid in it. I mean you could raid in WotLK PvP gear too. A thing that you could do that does not mean it was on par. PvE gear did not suffer from excessive stamina at cost of main stat and other stats did not suffer for having resilience. I won't even go into set bonuses. Which is more resilience.. Plus that is T4 vs S1 set. Greater the tier/season - bigger the sacrifice because you get more resilience and if you put value in % anyone in PvE gear will perform significantly better than a guy in pvp gear in any longer fights where mana might be an issue. And While in PvP you could kick some ass with PvE gear, no-resilience guys would die really quickly if they are a focus target of a PvP player.

Multiple difficulty modes, while is not the most elegant thing is needed to challenge PvE players. Starting expansion with "entry" level bosses is meh (mythic EN/WotLK Naxx was a meme) Good thing we had more raids than just those . WoW is still alive because it is best PvE game in the industry since... ever so it's doing it right.

Did you just skim through my post and not read what I said or are you trolling me

[Lei]

Not to forget how Blizzard was considered a "small studio" back then. It had the OG creators working on them, original philosophy, although I remember reading the wrath patch notes which could have been summarized as "YES YOU CAN!" era of wow even comparing to BC.
Spells weren't added and removed within single patches or otherwise, the game had integrity, substance. Yes, it was the golden era.

[erifwodahs]

Yeah, seems like you didn't play.

https://tbcdb.com/?item=24547 (S1 Gladiator Warrior Pants)
vs.
https://tbcdb.com/?item=29022 (T4 Dps Warrior Pants)

Set bonuses plus stamina is not a dps stat.
Also your DB is flawed.
Also look at this!
T6 https://tbcdb.com/?item=31065 vs
S3 https://tbcdb.com/?item=33748 mind that there is not set bonus for whatever reason. Nice to pick some items which support your lies, huh?

[Mosha]

Not to forget how Blizzard was considered a "small studio" back then. It had the OG creators working on them, original philosophy, altough I remember reading the wrath patch notes which could have been summarized as "YES YOU CAN!" era of wow even comparing to BC.
Spells weren't added and removed within single patches or otherwise, the game had integrity, substance. Yes, it was the golden era.

Blizzard was for sure not a small studio when WoW was released my friend.

[Kralljin]

Set bonuses plus stamina is not a dps stat.

???
Did you actually look at the items?
The T4 pants are straight worse.

T6 https://tbcdb.com/?item=31065 vs
S3 https://tbcdb.com/?item=33748 mind that there is not set bonus for whatever reason.

Seems i have to quote myself.

Was good it good to wear PvP items on every single piece?
Fuck no, but a lot of the individual pieces were equivalent to their PvE counterparts.

"A lot" does not mean "every single item".

Nice to pick some items which support your lies, huh?

Considering that the PvP item is actually superior to the PvE does support my case and is thus not a lie.