Is there really a Classic WoW period: Vanilla-WotLK?

[Azerate]

There's a lot of supposed general consensi in this thread that I'm hearing for the first time ever despite playing WoW for years and being around fansites all that time. Not too mention that I profoundly disagree with that "old school expac elitism" that claims the oldest stuff is somehow the best, which is clearly not the case and wow classic has proven that beyond any doubt.

I've seen a few people claim that there is "general consensus" that WoW Classic is actually a WoW period that includes Vanilla, TBC and WotLK. Is it though?

While playing through Wotlk/Cata/Some MoP, I always heard my mates on EU refer to Vanilla as "Classic". Later I had found out that most people don't call it that and prefer the term Vanilla instead. It resurfaced with WoW Classic released last year. Never heard of anyone calling Vanilla/Tbc/Wrath as "Classic" collectively until this thread.

The classic era was Vanilla to WotLk. It's the era where we used the classic talents, stat system and world. It is WoW 1.

WoW 2 was Cata to WoD. Still very similar to WoW 1 but this is we had the new world, new talents and a move towards more content for smaller groups.

WoW 3 is Legion to SL. True alternate gearing, systems on top of gear, catering to smaller groups, and the consolidation of seasons. It wasn't impossible before but WoW 3 is the easiest for a player to come back and start doing endgame of current content. I wonder what they will do in WoW 4?

Never heard any of this either. This thread seems to be full of people using their personal theories and naming schemes for supposed objective labeling of expansions. There is no "classic era" and there is no wow 1 2 3 or whatever. Neither are LFG and flying mounts the worst features objectively just because some random dude thinks so. I don't even know if it's the proverbial high horse some people are riding here. Some people seem to have some major delusions they are believing to be true.

And if you believe the game started to die in patch 1.0.x....I genuinely have absolutely no idea what you're even doing here still, because that basically means you've been playing and discussing a game that you dislike for the last 10+ years.

[chrisnumbers]

Yes. Everything was clearly better before the cataclysm that was Cataclysm.

[Wheeler]

I've seen a few people claim that there is "general consensus" that WoW Classic is actually a WoW period that includes Vanilla, TBC and WotLK. Is it though?

TBC and Wrath introduced 2 of the worst features of WoW: flying mounts and LFG tool. That's where, arguably, "the decline" started.

All of a sudden claiming that Classic period is a thing is a bit disingenuous.

I would agree with this.

Classic-WotLK was essentially the same core game with some changes to how you interacted with the environment (Flying being a key one).

Cata-WoD feels like an entirely different era of the game, where they started to take things in some wild directions. Talent trees changing, dual specs, etc.

Legion and Beyond feels like an entirely different game from the other two, and while it's somewhat comparable to the previous period, it's completely different than the first one.

[Vorkreist]

I've seen a few people claim that there is "general consensus" that WoW Classic is actually a WoW period that includes Vanilla, TBC and WotLK. Is it though?

TBC and Wrath introduced 2 of the worst features of WoW: flying mounts and LFG tool. That's where, arguably, "the decline" started.

All of a sudden claiming that Classic period is a thing is a bit disingenuous.

There is a "general consensus" that flying mounts are great.
Wotlk did go super casual but it was still way too much fun compared to the expansions that followed thats why it still takes the cake in the great classic trinity.
Real decline started with LFR in Cata. You can see the peak and crash in subs on the graph. There was never again a consistent period of high sub numbers. Just a rise with expansion release and mass abandon few months in when people realized the trash design is still present.

[PickleballAce]

Vanilla -> Wrath = Classic Era
Cataclysm = Transitional Period
Mists -> Now = Modern Era

[munkeyinorbit]

Nobody was "proven wrong." Your labels were (and still are) fucking meaningless and do little but help fuel idiotic arguments about which eras of WoW were best.

I guess you're never wrong when you move the goalposts like you do. First they were abirtary. Now they are meaningless. What's more idiotic. Arguments about what is the best era of wow or getting upset that you were proven wrong on the internet?

[Afrospinach]

Northrend still was okay, Icecrown and especially were done well, Icecrown felt way too fucking dangerous to traverse on the ground, Storm peaks felt like this huge mountain range that you just couldn't climb on foot, the place still felt super massive because you had to change heights constantly rather than set yourself on a course to fly from A to B.

You know the real interesting thing about storm peaks is that even though it is a "flying only" zone most everywhere in the zone is still accessible by ground mount. I think that temple on top of the mountain is the only place you cannot get to. It takes forever and a day to get around though. iirc you have to go through the giant encampment to get to most places from the goblin town.

Vanilla -> Wrath = Classic Era
Cataclysm = Transitional Period
Mists -> Now = Modern Era

I dunno, I almost feel like legion and BFA have gone off on another pretty distinct tangent with the waay over the top rental abilities. Somewhere, somewhere behind all that azerite power and the reaping flames there is a class that is still trying to be relevant. Sometimes reaping flames can be >50% of my damage done lol. I could be naked or level for all it mattered. The sad thing is a significant proportion of the rest is azerite armour and corruption effects, neither of which, again, have much to do with the class underneath.

[arkanon]

I dunno, I almost feel like legion and BFA have gone off on another pretty distinct tangent with the waay

I actually tend to agree with this. For me personally, i felt legion was quite a big shift in the overall gearing and progression / power gains systems. Personally, not a big fan of it, but it wasnt until midway through BFA that i really started to become frustrated with it.

[Will]

I've seen a few people claim that there is "general consensus" that WoW Classic is actually a WoW period that includes Vanilla, TBC and WotLK. Is it though?

TBC and Wrath introduced 2 of the worst features of WoW: flying mounts and LFG tool. That's where, arguably, "the decline" started.

All of a sudden claiming that Classic period is a thing is a bit disingenuous.

oh could you drop this crap already about flying mounts. The majority of people liked them. It's hardly a 'worst feature'.

If you don't like flying, keep to a vanilla-only server.

[ydraw]

oh could you drop this crap already about flying mounts. The majority of people liked them. It's hardly a 'worst feature'.

If you don't like flying, keep to a vanilla-only server.

The vast majority of people like the LFG tool too.

[Julian Rayne]

The reason that some players (including me) draw a line between Wrath and Cataclysm is that the old world was changed. We lost a lot of EK and Kalimdor questlines and storylines during the Cata revamp.

I'll say this. I don't play Classic and I won't play TBC or Cata or any later "Classic" versions of the game. I wil however play on Wrath servers. It was the latest - and in my opinion best - interation of the pre-revamp world.

[Slowpoke is a Gamer]

It seems to me like generally the "Classic - Wrath" specifically is chosen for two reasons.

1. The original WoW 1-60 is still (mostly by Wrath where Onyxia and Naxx were removed (read: updated)) intact. Cataclysm blew all that up and everything post that is still available in the retail version of the game possibly via bronze dragon shenanigans.

2. The talent system of "point per level, five points to advance a tier, mix and match specs to your liking" was still fully intact. Cata switched the system to "you must put 40 points into your chosen spec before you can cross-spec" then MoP replaced it with the mess we have today.

[deenman]

yeah i would say that period counts as ''classic'',they are the 3 more similar mecanicaly,it doesnt matter how bad flying was as a feature or how objectivly bad wrath was in fact

- - - Updated - - -

It seems to me like generally the "Classic - Wrath" specifically is chosen for two reasons.

1. The original WoW 1-60 is still (mostly by Wrath where Onyxia and Naxx were removed (read: updated)) intact. Cataclysm blew all that up and everything post that is still available in the retail version of the game possibly via bronze dragon shenanigans.

2. The talent system of "point per level, five points to advance a tier, mix and match specs to your liking" was still fully intact. Cata switched the system to "you must put 40 points into your chosen spec before you can cross-spec" then MoP replaced it with the mess we have today.

I wouldnt really say what we have today is a mess,it adds far more choice and customization than the old talents ever did,but i agree that replacing it may not have been the best idea,instead it should have been an extra thing,kinda like grim dawn has its normal talents and the devotion system (if you dont know the game its basicaly diablo2 skils PLUS path of exile one)

[Devilyaki]

LFG and flying mounts have absolutely nothing to do with game going downhill.

But but now you don’t have to run for an hour to get to that one quest your on and you don’t have to sit spamming look for one more to xxxx for two hours, how it that better!?

[Slowpoke is a Gamer]

yeah i would say that period counts as ''classic'',they are the 3 more similar mecanicaly,it doesnt matter how bad flying was as a feature or how objectivly bad wrath was in fact

- - - Updated - - -



I wouldnt really say what we have today is a mess,it adds far more choice and customization than the old talents ever did,but i agree that replacing it may not have been the best idea,instead it should have been an extra thing,kinda like grim dawn has its normal talents and the devotion system (if you dont know the game its basicaly diablo2 skils PLUS path of exile one)

A mess is extreme but honestly I go there mostly because saying "it didn't fix any of the problems and made the system less fun for the average player" doesn't quite roll off the tongue as well.

[kukkamies]

I don't think it's quite as clear cut for 3 'eras'.
TBC is already very different from classic. Dailies, heroic dungeons, main raids are 25man, old world obsoleted, welfare epics, arena, flying
Wotlk introduced even smaller raids, 10man, and much easier difficulty, achievements.
Cata introduced 10man heroics. Revamped a few specs or classes like warlock as first revamps. Did prune talent trees, but added more skills elsewhere.
MoP continued in spirit, more complex classes, more difficult rotations, more dailies, 10man heroics even more comparative to 25man. Also added challenge modes for dungeons and outdoor boss experience for a month or two.

WoD removed 10man heroics, class prunes, removed old style dailies. Mythic dungeons was a good addition.
Legion added legendaries and world quests. Legion did have really good class quests and stabilized the mythic dungeons. More pruning.
Bfa felt more of Legion and SL already feels that way too. Not much new at all? Maybe something coming in SL.

[Lubefist]

I don't think it's quite as clear cut for 3 'eras'.
TBC is already very different from classic. Dailies, heroic dungeons, main raids are 25man, old world obsoleted, welfare epics, arena, flying
Wotlk introduced even smaller raids, 10man, and much easier difficulty, achievements.

Both TBC and Wotlk were harder than vanilla. Also the whole TBC "welfare epics" is laughable. Having to run 20 heroic dungeons to get enough badges to buy one epic item passes up as welfare epic? Ok dude.

[kukkamies]

Both TBC and Wotlk were harder than vanilla. Also the whole TBC "welfare epics" is laughable. Having to run 20 heroic dungeons to get enough badges to buy one epic item passes up as welfare epic? Ok dude.

I got my welfare epics through pvp in TBC. Afk bgs and get pretty good epics

[Dalinos]

Both TBC and Wotlk were harder than vanilla. Also the whole TBC "welfare epics" is laughable. Having to run 20 heroic dungeons to get enough badges to buy one epic item passes up as welfare epic? Ok dude.

No. You're talking about the 5man heroic End-Boss epics, like the fist-weapon from the last boss in Shattered Halls, or the mace from Shadow Labyrinth. Those were not welfare epics. Nor were the ones you could get from badges. No no no.

Welfare epics DID start in TBC, and you know what they were? PVP gear. When S1 was around, you bought the 5-set and weapons from Arena points, and the off-set pieces (bracers/belt/boots/trinkets etc) with a mix of Honour and specific amounts of BG badges. I vividly remember my Boots costing like 18k honour and 20 Eye of the Storm marks. The honour cap at the time was 75k.

In season 2, when Merciless Gladiator's gear was released, guess what happened. Gladiator gear, from Season 1, was available with HONOUR. ALL OF IT. Weapons included. Same thing happened in Season 3, Vengeful, and Season 4, Brutal. Yes, during Sunwell Plateau/Season 4, you could get a full set of Vengeful gear, which was equivalent to Black Temple/Mount Hyjal T6 gear in terms of item level, it was just itemized differently cause of Resilience, with HONOUR. THIS was the start of welfare epics. Getting BT/Hyjal level gear from random Battlegrounds that you played solo.

Why do I remember all this? Cause I was a Druid Main Tank. We didn't have much Leather gear with +Defense on it, so becoming crit-immune meant I had to use SOME PVP pieces with Resilience on it, since Resilience reduced your chance to be critted in PVE too.

TBC was great, and the greatest iteration of the game IMO, but it also WAS the beginning of what the playerbase calls "Welfare Epics". Epics that were strong, viable, competitive and could be obtained by dicking around in Warsong Gulch and Arathi Basin, on your own, without a guild, without friends, without ANY of the social interaction that was/is 100% required in Vanilla/Classic and in retail M+/Mythic Raids (ONLY).

On Topic:

For me, the era of WoW changed when the loot changed. Why is it that I can remember stuff like my Shadow Wing Focus Staff, my Stormrage set, my Hibernation Crystal + Rejuvenating Gem trinket combo from Vanilla, my Cursed Vision of Sargeras and my Demontooth Shoulderpads along with my Wildfury Greatstaff & Pillar of Ferocity from TBC, but I can't remember ANY gear from Cata onwards? Shit, I even remember the stats on Wildfury Greatstaff, it gave Armour, Dodge, Stamina and Bonus attack power in feral forms.

Cause it became stream-lined. The moment they stream-lined loot, from unique pieces of gear that each had their own stats, into "Main Stat 1 - Stamina - Secondary Stat 1 - Secondary Stat 2" is the moment they shot themselves in the foot. The only items that HAD their own character after WOTK were the Sha-Touched weapons in the first tier of raiding in MOP, that you put the Legendary Gem in. I remember and still have my Gao-Rei, Greatstaff of the Guardian in the bank with its Sha-touched gem inside it, cause that bastard took me months to get and I was stuck with shitty Spear of Xuen from Archaeology. I guess Deathwing's weapons in Cataclysm are also memorable, but again, they are memorable cause they were UNIQUE PIECES OF GEAR. Like the Druid/Hunter (staff or polearm?) that had a proc that stacked agility and made you bigger in size. Or Gur'thalak, that spawned tentacles. Or the caster dagger with its amazing proc. See where I'm going with this?

Would you look at that. Items with their own character stay in your memories with you for years, items that are just generic stat-sticks that you can get in 50 different versions are very forgettable. Whaddaya know.

[Lubefist]

No. You're talking about the 5man heroic End-Boss epics, like the fist-weapon from the last boss in Shattered Halls, or the mace from Shadow Labyrinth. Those were not welfare epics. Nor were the ones you could get from badges. No no no.

Welfare epics DID start in TBC, and you know what they were? PVP gear. When S1 was around, you bought the 5-set and weapons from Arena points, and the off-set pieces (bracers/belt/boots/trinkets etc) with a mix of Honour and specific amounts of BG badges. I vividly remember my Belt costing like 6k honour and 20 Eye of the Storm marks.

In season 2, when Merciless Gladiator's gear was released, guess what happened. Gladiator gear, from Season 1, was available with HONOUR. ALL OF IT. Weapons included. Same thing happened in Season 3, Vengeful, and Season 4, Brutal. Yes, during Sunwell Plateau/Season 4, you could get a full set of Vengeful gear, which was equivalent to Black Temple/Mount Hyjal T6 gear in terms of item level, it was just itemized differently cause of Resilience, with HONOUR. THIS was the start of welfare epics. Getting BT/Hyjal level gear from random Battlegrounds that you played solo.

Why do I remember all this? Cause I was a Druid Main Tank. We didn't have much Leather gear with +Defense on it, so becoming crit-immune meant I had to use SOME PVP pieces with Resilience on it, since Resilience reduced your chance to be critted in PVE too.

TBC was great, and the greatest iteration of the game IMO, but it also WAS the beginning of what the playerbase calls "Welfare Epics". Epics that were strong, viable, competitive and could be obtained by dicking around in Warsong Gulch and Arathi Basin, on your own, without a guild, without friends, without ANY of the social interaction that was/is 100% required in Vanilla/Classic and in retail M+/Mythic Raids (ONLY).

On Topic:

For me, the era of WoW changed when the loot changed. Why is it that I can remember stuff like my Shadow Wing Focus Staff, my Stormrage set, my Hibernation Crystal + Rejuvenating Gem trinket combo from Vanilla, my Cursed Vision of Sargeras and my Demontooth Shoulderpads along with my Wildfury Greatstaff & Pillar of Ferocity from TBC, but I can't remember ANY gear from Cata onwards? Shit, I even remember the stats on Wildfury Greatstaff, it gave Armour, Dodge, Stamina and Bonus attack power in feral forms.

Cause it became stream-lined. The moment they stream-lined loot, from unique pieces of gear that each had their own stats, into "Main Stat 1 - Stamina - Secondary Stat 1 - Secondary Stat 2" is the moment they shot themselves in the foot. The only items that HAD their own character after WOTK were the Sha-Touched weapons in the first tier of raiding in MOP, that you put the Legendary Gem in. I remember and still have my Gao-Rei, Greatstaff of the Guardian in the bank with its Sha-touched gem inside it, cause that bastard took me months to get and I was stuck with shitty Spear of Xuen from Archaeology. I guess Deathwing's weapons in Cataclysm are also memorable, but again, they are memorable cause they were UNIQUE PIECES OF GEAR. Like the Druid/Hunter (staff or polearm?) that had a proc that stacked agility and made you bigger in size. Or Gur'thalak, that spawned tentacles. Or the caster dagger with its amazing proc. See where I'm going with this?

Would you look at that. Items with their own character stay in your memories with you for years, items that are just generic stat-sticks that you can get in 50 different versions are very forgettable. Whaddaya know.

Yeah I vividly remember that too. I played thousands of arena games in TBC, I lived for that shit.

But how does doing horrible BG grind, even if you can dick around semi-afk somehow more welfare than easy as shit content like MC where any guild that wasn't dogshit could carry 15 fresh 60's and gear them up?

Also the pvp items were bad for pve with few exceptions, one apparently being the tank druids since blizz did piss poor job with itemization, other being weapons and after s2 weapons they required 1850 rating which wasn't easy back then because the rating wasn't as inflated back then. Gladiator was usually depending on BG 2300-2400. S2 weapons were good for up to T5 content, after that you had to be well above average in pvp to get S3 weapons that were arguably on par with some of the Hyjal/BT weapons.