Genocide On The Border

[Themius]

So far from a quick google I've found

-No evidence
-One allegation, whose chief concern was actually failure to protect staff from corona virus
-Concerning one doctor, at one facility
-Named Dr. Mahendra Amin
-Surgeries were allegedly coerced, not forced
-"Several patients", remembering that there are 694 million latinos in the Americas

So... white nationalist genocide of hispanics? Really? I guess Trump really has his work cut out for him.

One apparently is equal to 17.

no evidence?????? but then you say "one allegation" (which itself is a lie)

[Krakan]

The point is that your understanding of illegal immigration is clearly informed by right wing propaganda as opposed to actual fact.

Hence why you refuse to admit the known fact that most undocumented workers are visa overstays, not border jumpers.

And why should we care if they depress wages, doesn’t paying people more just make everything cost more? That’s what I’ve been repeatedly told by you anti-minimum wage folks.

I mean your wrong on both counts...

I think you struggle to understand the difference between buying power and the number your seeing.

Simply increasing wages doesn't do anything to influence buying power.

[Elegiac]

Simply increasing wages doesn't do anything to influence buying power.

Then why are you harping on undocumented workers supposedly depressing wages.

Also, question: do you think undocumented workers do not buy goods or services?

[Krakan]

Are some sneaking in on vacations? Of course others on work visas, and in total double the number that cross the border.

But hey Mabye all of those over staying there visas are high end working in trades of need as you say I mean if a .gov site under trumps administration can be run by ideology and not any real numbers any thing is possible right?

It is far more likely someone granted a Visa is of a skilled trade over non skilled. Don't get me wrong those do exist but not to those levels.

[Elegiac]

It is far more likely someone granted a Visa is of a skilled trade over non skilled. Don't get me wrong those do exist but not to those levels.

Indeed. And it's hilarious why you can't see why this policy actually encourages illegal immigration by applying incentives on both sides of the border.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

It is far more likely someone granted a Visa is of a skilled trade over non skilled. Don't get me wrong those do exist but not to those levels.

Sure if you want to think a bunch high end workers are the ones immigrating illegally in numbers dwarfing border crossings go ahead. it is a real shame those who are in such demand are abunch of murdering rapist bringing in drugs taking the high paying jobs of Americans and not paying what would be a rather high tax rate, something should really be done about them.

[Krakan]

Then why are you harping on undocumented workers supposedly depressing wages.

Also, question: do you think undocumented workers do not buy goods or services?

I don't know what your trying to argue... what your saying only could apply to a market with limitless resources and regulated prices...

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Sure if you want to think a bunch high end workers are the ones immigrating illegally in numbers dwarfing border crossings go ahead. it is a real shame those who are in such demand are abunch of murdering rapist bringing in drugs taking the high paying jobs of Americans and not paying what would be a rather high tax rate, something should really be done about them.

I have no idea what it is your trying to say. Being poor and unskilled doesn't make one a monster more a victim of circumstance.

[Elegiac]

I don't know what your trying to argue... what your saying only could apply to a market with limitless resources and regulated prices...

I'm pointing out that your argument is contradictory and that "illegal immigrants depress wages" is a nonsense talking point since a) minimum wage exists, and b) undocumented workers still buy goods and services, which generates demand for more goods and services that primarily cater to the working class and are affordable by them (i.e. creating more jobs).

If your complaint is that this requires endless growth; congratulations, you've discovered the flaw inherent to consumer capitalism - it either requires endless growth or inevitably leads to economic stagnation and massive inequality.

[Krakan]

I'm pointing out that your argument is contradictory and that "illegal immigrants depress wages" is a nonsense talking point since a) minimum wage exists, and b) undocumented workers still buy goods and services, which generates demand for more goods and services that primarily cater to the working class and are affordable by them (i.e. creating more jobs).

If your complaint is that this requires endless growth; congratulations, you've discovered the flaw inherent to consumer capitalism - it either requires endless growth or inevitably leads to economic stagnation and massive inequality.

They work below minimum wage so I don't understand how that contradicts anything. Even if minimum wages is applied across the board that still would increase the living cost via rent for contested leveling spaces. Things don't just exist in a vacuum.

Workers and companies are always adversarial by design. Flooding the market with cheap expendable labor harms the working class.

[Elegiac]

They work below minimum wage so I don't understand how that contradicts anything.

Documented workers do not, so please do tell me how undocumented ones magically depress the wages below the minimum.

Also: why are you more concerned about the illegal immigrants than the employers stealing wages?

Even if minimum wages is applied across the board that still would increase the living cost via rent for contested leveling spaces. Things don't just exist in a vacuum.

Rent control and a myriad of other policies have been invented to mitigate this. Housing shortages are a feature of capitalist systems, not the result of undocumented workers.

Part two: Why are you more concerned about illegal immigration than about the existence of landlords?

Workers and companies are always adversarial by design. Flooding the market with cheap expendable labor harms the working class.

"Cheap expendable labor" that are actual humans and still consume goods and services thus generating demand and further jobs.

Part three: why are you more concerned about illegal immigration than about the consistent attacks on unions and worker rights legislation which have resulted in a massive disparity in power between workers and employers?

[Krakan]

Documented workers do not, so please do tell me how undocumented ones magically depress the wages below the minimum.

Also: why are you more concerned about the illegal immigrants than the employers stealing wages?



Rent control and a myriad of other policies have been invented to mitigate this. Housing shortages are a feature of capitalist systems, not the result of undocumented workers.

Part two: Why are you more concerned about illegal immigration than about the existence of landlords?



"Cheap expendable labor" that are actual humans and still consume goods and services thus generating demand and further jobs.

Part three: why are you more concerned about illegal immigration than about the consistent attacks on unions and worker rights legislation which have resulted in a massive disparity in power between workers and employers?

To be frank because one problem seems to have a solution while the other seems something that should be addressed but will never be fully solved.

As for landlords I admit I would like to see stronger regulations on land ownership I just don't know what the practical solution to that would be. It isnt enough to simply consume... you have to either produce more then you consume or enable the production to the point your a net benefit. This service economy is on borrowed time.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

I don't know what your trying to argue... what your saying only could apply to a market with limitless resources and regulated prices...

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I have no idea what it is your trying to say. Being poor and unskilled doesn't make one a monster more a victim of circumstance.

We’re not taking about the poor or unskilled, you have established that you believe the vast majority of vistas are going to skilled people In needed job. That also means you believe said people who make up 2/3 of illegal immigrants are focused on less because they don’t take low wage jobs from Americans.

But at the same time illegal immigrants bring drugs,murder,rape,don’t pay taxes,steal American jobs. So 2/3 of illegal immigrants are doing so and they didn’t come over the border they over stayed there high end visas taking higher paying jobs from Americans and not paying there larger cut of taxes as well as being murderous rapist who bring drugs.

So shouldn’t those 2/3rds get more focus?

[Elegiac]

To be frank because one problem seems to have a solution while the other seems something that should be addressed but will never be fully solved.

No, they have solutions - you just don't like countenancing them because they entail fundamental questions on the nature of property, labor, and the economy which aren't comfortable subjects for capitalists because...

They reveal exactly the depths to which they'll sacrifice the welfare of others for their own profit and convenience.

Like, say, brutalising undocumented immigrants because it is the "easier" solution for them, personally.

As for landlords I admit I would like to see stronger regulations on land ownership I just don't know what the practical solution to that would be. It isnt enough to simply consume... you have to either produce more then you consume or enable the production to the point your a net benefit. This service economy is on borrowed time.

You're not saying anything here that socialists haven't been saying for nearly a century now. Welcome to the club.

[Krakan]

We’re not taking about the poor or unskilled, you have established that you believe the vast majority of vistas are going to skilled people In needed job. That also means you believe said people who make up 2/3 of illegal immigrants are focused on less because they don’t take low wage jobs from Americans.

But at the same time illegal immigrants bring drugs,murder,rape,don’t pay taxes,steal American jobs. So 2/3 of illegal immigrants are doing so and they didn’t come over the border they over stayed there high end visas taking higher paying jobs from Americans and not paying there larger cut of taxes as well as being murderous rapist who bring drugs.

So why are those 2/3rds not getting more focus?

Where are you getting these numbers?

The article you listed doesn't have accurate numbers unless illegal immigrants are self reporting truthfully how many of them there are.

This topic requires a bit of critical thought not a burning desire to imply racism is at play.

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No, they have solutions - you just don't like countenancing them because they entail fundamental questions on the nature of property, labor, and the economy which aren't comfortable subjects for capitalists because...

They reveal exactly the depths to which they'll sacrifice the welfare of others for their own profit and convenience.

Like, say, brutalising undocumented immigrants because it is the "easier" solution for them, personally.



You're not saying anything here that socialists haven't been saying for nearly a century now. Welcome to the club.

I would rather there not be any undocumented immigrants rather then brutalizing them.

[Elegiac]

I would rather there not be an undocumented immigrants rather then brutalizing them.

And as I've pointed out, none of the reasons you don't want them to be here are based in economic reality - the shit you complain about is all a result of other factors.

It's literally just prejudice.

[Krakan]

And as I've pointed out, none of the reasons you don't want them to be here are based in economic reality - the shit you complain about is all a result of other factors.

It's literally just prejudice.

I admit the overarching issues do not have a one size fits all answer. I would see it as greatly helping removing them and may even allow for further changes. So long as you have the poor desperately in competition with each other for resources you cant do much.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Where are you getting these numbers?

The article you listed doesn't have accurate numbers unless illegal immigrants are self reporting truthfully how many of them there are.

This topic requires a bit of critical thought not a burning desire to imply racism is at play.

I’ve already linked you a .gov site ran under the trump administration that shows it to be 2-1 so unless you think there are no numbers at all of illegal immigrants as the government is lying to you vista overstays out numbers border crossings by double.

So again why isn’t there more focus being paid to the 2/3’s who are over staying there visas and steeling high end American jobs while not paying taxes?

[Elegiac]

I admit the overarching issues do not have a one size fits all answer. I would see it as greatly helping removing them and may even allow for further changes. So long as you have the poor desperately in competition with each other for resources you cant do much.

Sure you can.

Take the resources that are being hoarded by the rich.

You're blaming the most vulnerable people in society. Real big man move.

[Krakan]

I’ve already linked you a .gov site ran under the trump administration that shows it to be 2-1 so unless you think there are no numbers at all of illegal immigrants as the government is lying to you vista overstays out numbers border crossings by double.

So again why isn’t there more focus being paid to the 2/3’s who are over staying there visas and steeling high end American jobs while not paying taxes?

That isn't how this works... they have no reliable numbers on illegal immigration...

[Elegiac]

That isn't how this works... they have no reliable numbers on illegal immigration...

Then how do you know they are an issue.