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  1. #21
    Legendary! Ealyssa's Avatar
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    IMO it's a great change.
    Makes HC raiding relevant again and put less mandatory pressure on MM+

    Now the somewhat casual HC raiders can just enjoy what they like. And raiders who dislike MM+ aren't forced to farm them anymore.
    While people who like MM+ can still enjoy the challenge. It's not perfect, but damn better than current gearing.
    Quote Originally Posted by primalmatter View Post
    nazi is not the abbreviation of national socialism....
    When googling 4 letters is asking too much fact-checking.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Thor79 View Post
    I get reducing it to maybe 2 items - but down from 3 to 1?
    Isn't it the baseline drop? fail the timer, 1 item, but succeeding and +2 still provides more loot. Unless I missed something.

  3. #23
    More incentive to do only 1 mythic per week if you are a raider and not pushing high m+ for clout.
    zug zug

    what is it paladin, one zug is not enough for ya?

    Quote Originally Posted by MasterOfNone View Post
    lore should be voluntary to the game. not obligatory.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Evilmoo View Post
    More incentive to do only 1 mythic per week if you are a raider and not pushing high m+ for clout.
    You still get more options in the vault for doing more m+ so there's still some decent incentive.

  5. #25
    The Lightbringer
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    my question is: will this make SL Keystone Master easier to get? The devs tune content to a certain ilvl right? so normal might be tuned around having an ilvl of 190-195, heroic 205-210 and mythic about 215-220. So the content is tuned for those people who progress.

    Now what if they tune M+ for the people who ONLY do M+? so first week (no great hall reward) they progress up through the key ranks until they are comfortably doing M12-14 keys. which would mean that M15 would have to be tuned around the 207-210 mark. which means anyone later on down the line who is raiding heroic and mythic will comfortably outgear a M15 dungeon

  6. #26
    Yet another piece of shit nerf to M+. They are really set out to destroy the one good feature they added in the past 15 years. It's back to raid or die.

  7. #27
    The perfect solution would be that people could do the content they want and ignore the content they don't like.

    You like M+ and not raiding? Do M+
    You like raiding but not M+? Do Raiding.

    I think they are aiming at that with these changes but balancing a content week-locked with an spamable content only restrained by time/skill is...well utopic.

    A HC raider will still feel the need to do M+ because the week chest is higher ilvl.
    A M+ spammer will still feel the need to raid because it's gonna take a LOT of time before the Weekly Chest fill all slots ( if ever).

    Now of course I know you are thinking:" That's easily solved....get rid of that horrible <<feel the need>> and do what you enjoy" but this is a competitive game if you are pugging like the Op. You compete with a lot of people for getting into the M+ run....the HC pug raider competes with other people in the queue so I can't blame people having the mindset of not wanting to be left behind.I don't blame people for something that should be not be like the idea of "I'll do the shitty X so I can enjoy the funny Y".

    Well this raises two questions.

    1. Is this the intention? are they trying that people don't feel forced to do content they don't like?
    2. Is it even posible? How can you design a system that achieves that?

  8. #28
    Herald of the Titans
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    I like this change.
    In BFA, esp in 8.3 it was really baffling that normal raiding was pointless with amount of gear you could get almost free from various sources, including below 10+ keys.
    This change would allow casual players and non-M+ pushers to have more fair choice between doing normal raids and sub 10+ keys.
    This change will also hopefully ease the pressure during M+ Runs. Less valuable rewards -> less desire to push for them -> more relaxed players -> less toxic runs.

  9. #29
    All in all these are great changes for multiple reasons.

    M+ was too rewarding and people are used to it being so rewarding, so people will obviously complain about it. But it's great that they are going back to a more weekly reward system. Endlessly grinding just isn't healthy. That's not how this game has ever been until they changed it with Legion.
    Also people are used to having inflated ilvls because we got items left and right. We won't be ilvl capped a few weeks into Shadowlands. That's a mentality people really need to drop. There will be slots that just won't be as high ilvl as you'd like it to be. That's part of a good, nuanced itemization. This "ilvl cap or its trash" mentality is not healthy for the game.

    It won't break M+'s neck to drop 3 ilvl lower than heroic raids do, because it will take a long time to get fully heroic raid or better ilvl geared on all slots.

    M+ will have some very good weapons and trinkets, like it always does, so there will always be a reason to do it. On top of that, there are also conduits that will give some reason to do M+, I'm sure. Although it's a bit worrying that conduit ranks still cannot be tested in the beta so close to release...

  10. #30
    M+ and Raiding should complement each other. There should never be an either/or situation. If you only play one of them, thats your loss, and not something the system should directly be designed for, because if it were, one would always be better and cannibalize the other.

    In BfA and Legion, M+ easily outclassed Heroic raiding for gearing, which meant that either you raid Mythic, or any gear rewards from raiding were either instant throw-aways or quickly replaced by M+ gear (less so in Legion since we still had sets, more in BfA with a few Azerite exceptions).

    With these changes, M+ will be able to fill slots that you don't have a raid drop from, in some cases even be stronger due to stat distribution or trinket effects, and the weekly chest will be able to provide a mythic-quality item, and with up to 3 choices a pretty good chance to get something decent. This in my mind neatly complements gearing for Heroic raiders without making raid gear overall worthless, and the weekly chest can still offer up to BiS pieces even for Mythic raiders (and not every Mythic raider instantly has the ability to kill every boss, either, especially the last ones which give better gear).

    Overall, good changes.
    Last edited by Nevcairiel; 2020-09-16 at 02:45 PM.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by PrimiOne View Post
    You compete with a lot of people for getting into the M+ run....
    Yes, and simply put, if you don't raid forget about doing M+ too.

  12. #32
    Only low io scrubs would see this change as positive.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Rafalga View Post
    Only low io scrubs would see this change as positive.
    Meaning most of us? Great change then.

  14. #34
    All the negativity from this feels overblown.

    End of dungeon loot being a mere 3 item levels less than heroic ... it's essentially heroic gear. It's a little less than what we see in 8.3, but three item levels is a small, minute difference with the gear. The weekly chest, which we will have much more choice with, matches the first 8 bosses in Mythic. Even if your progression is solely M+, your gear will be more than good enough.

    As far as the reductions in the amount of gear itself, the gut reaction understandably is "not good," but as someone who just came back to the game two months ago, I got to 475 ilevel within 6 weeks, all from pugging. If Shadowlands wasn't right around the corner, I would probably take a break again because, outside of cloak levels and corruptions, there are no more upgrades for me (note: not pugging Mythic raiding). The gearing process, currently, is way, way too fast. So, while a reduction in loot feels bad, it's necessary, all because gear acquisition in end game, in my opinion, is far too fast.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Rafalga View Post
    Only low io scrubs would see this change as positive.
    Why?

    You gonna link your rio btw?

    - - - Updated - - -

    I like this change, I barely raided beyond grabbing curve in BFA because if you're doing your 15s weekly there's pretty much no point to raid aside from specific trinkets etc (unless you enjoy it obviously)

    It's nice that heroic feels more relevant now - I did the current tier raid on 2-3 toons weekly in Legion, I've probably done Nya'lotha like 4 times because there's just no point for me

  16. #36
    Its decisions like this that make me roll my eyes when Ion and the devs say they want players to have agency over their progression and make meaningful choices. This change effectively punishes those that opt to not raid. We already live in a reality where in most cases the most powerful weapons and trinkets (i.e. Slappy Boi and Drest Trink) are from raid. So now you further remove a layer of meaningful game play by making M+ not as worthwhile gear wise as in past expansions.

    Sure, most high level M+ players raid anyways, but don't keep espousing this shit about choice.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by cloudotq View Post
    Its decisions like this that make me roll my eyes when Ion and the devs say they want players to have agency over their progression and make meaningful choices. This change effectively punishes those that opt to not raid. We already live in a reality where in most cases the most powerful weapons and trinkets (i.e. Slappy Boi and Drest Trink) are from raid. So now you further remove a layer of meaningful game play by making M+ not as worthwhile gear wise as in past expansions.

    Sure, most high level M+ players raid anyways, but don't keep espousing this shit about choice.

    You're still getting a mythic quality piece of gear every week

    and it's 3 item levels below heroic, if you're a min maxer to the point you're gonna chase that you're gonna be raiding anyways

  18. #38
    This is a result of them removing titanforging (like we harassed them to do). They instead have to give us less loot for the gearing process to not be over before it started. The weekly chest is now your source of gear from m+ essentially.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by cloudotq View Post
    Its decisions like this that make me roll my eyes when Ion and the devs say they want players to have agency over their progression and make meaningful choices. This change effectively punishes those that opt to not raid. We already live in a reality where in most cases the most powerful weapons and trinkets (i.e. Slappy Boi and Drest Trink) are from raid. So now you further remove a layer of meaningful game play by making M+ not as worthwhile gear wise as in past expansions.

    Sure, most high level M+ players raid anyways, but don't keep espousing this shit about choice.
    If you only m+, the true reward is the chest, and ultimately you want all of your items to be from the chest. And in SL it will be easier, as you can pick your reward from a bigger selection of options (less items vendored cause you're already geared in that slot). So I'd argue it's actually easier to gear up in m+ in SL than it is in retail.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Rageonit View Post
    So I'd argue it's actually easier to gear up in m+ in SL than it is in retail.
    No it's not, because people who aren't raiding will hardly get any invites to M+ because of their obviously lower ilvl.

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