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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by burek View Post
    No it's not, because people who aren't raiding will hardly get any invites to M+ because of their obviously lower ilvl.
    1. 3 levels at most.
    2. They can create their own groups.
    3. They can find a guild or make friends.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by PointerToAddress View Post
    @Thor79 I don't have Beta so I can't verify it, but I was watching Sloot do some M+ and he was getting 2 pieces of loot at the end of a run. AFAIK it's 1 piece of you don't finish in time, 1 more if you do, so total of 2 if you do clear in time. It was a couple of weeks ago tho so they might have changed it.
    Thanks! That's good to know.

  3. #43
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    Sometimes I wonder if they're actively trying to kill this game. If you raid heroic you've got zero reason to do M+, just faceroll Heroic for 2 hours or so each week. If you're raiding Mythic you've got no reason to login outside of your weekly raid either. They went from tons of potentially rewarding but optional content to zero rewarding content outside your chosen raid difficulty. RIP M+.

    On the plus side the mass exodus of players will happen faster and Blizzard will potentially do a 180 on all their disastrous decisions for SL.
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  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by RoKPaNda View Post
    Sometimes I wonder if they're actively trying to kill this game. If you raid heroic you've got zero reason to do M+, just faceroll Heroic for 2 hours or so each week.
    This is wrong, m+ chest contains Mythic raid level reward, so even if you are fully heroic geared, you still have plenty of reasons to do m+.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Rageonit View Post
    1. 3 levels at most.
    2. They can create their own groups.
    3. They can find a guild or make friends.
    Don't be crazy now. What a ludicrous suggestion... Getting to know people? Being friendly? Oof, steady on.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rageonit View Post
    This is wrong, m+ chest contains Mythic raid level reward, so even if you are fully heroic geared, you still have plenty of reasons to do m+.
    Exactly this. & with the choice system, it's better than ever. Gearing up through M+ alone might not be as easy in the immediate, but over the course of weeks/months, with the pieces you get to choose from, you'll be in a better situation than you currently are on live.

    I really, really don't get the drama.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Toybox View Post
    Don't be crazy now. What a ludicrous suggestion... Getting to know people? Being friendly? Oof, steady on.
    Waiting for the guy to respond that nowadays, nobody wants to be friends with players with low rio.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thor79 View Post
    Morning Folks.
    I took a look through the first pages, didn't see a topic on this, if I messed up, I'm sorry, please delete it.

    LINK:https://www.wowhead.com/news=317979/...on-reward-redu

    So, this was rather disturbing to me as a father to be with a busy job - my wow time was already limited, and it's about to become less. The gist of this is, they are going to make M+ loot lower ilvl than heroic raiding, we already know there will only be one piece of loot per M+ dungeon.

    - I'm a player who gets to play in 30-45 minute chunks. M+ was perfect for me, as a former Mythic raider. I got to progress on my schedule, either in a PUG or with a group of friends. I could start a new alt and gear it up myself in M+ without having to commit to a raiding schedule. It's not as challenging as Mythic raiding at the level I play (15-18), but it's something.

    - It will either take a TON longer to gear up in M+, or they are going to have alternate loot paths.

    What's your guys thoughts on this? Am I feeling upset too early? I really don't like it. It feels more like they are trying to push their "raid or die" approach, yet again. I'm sure this will make a lot of (non WF) raiders happy - they won't have to do a ton of M+ grinding, and their gear drops will be slightly better.
    It's just to get people used to it. In the following tiers raids will also have tier sets that mean if you don't raid you might as well not play the game at all. Regardless of ilvl, raiding will always be top of the food chain, as it should be. The only problem I see with this is that Heroic raiding is about 5 to 6 million times easier than a +15 so it makes no logical sense, whatever I'll just gear myself out faster in raids now it also takes less time. 6 hours of raid per week = free heroic clear, it's physically impossible to clear all dungeons at +15 in 6 hours because you can't even decide what you run.

    This change just makes the gearing process easier. Clear the easy heroic raid and only do one +15 for the week (actually just needs to be +14 now lol), and collect the welfare check.

    Looks like they want to throw as many people as possible in mythic raiding, which is fine. Because contrary to popular belief, you don't need to waste your life in there, you can do it just 6 hours a week and still get loot and shit, maybe you won't clear before next tier but that's fine.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Bennett View Post
    You're still getting a mythic quality piece of gear every week

    and it's 3 item levels below heroic, if you're a min maxer to the point you're gonna chase that you're gonna be raiding anyways
    the irony is that minmaxers will go into M+ anyway because those 3 extra ilvls will not be as good as the perfect secondary stats. If haste/mastery are your best stats, then a haste/mastery ilvl 210 item is going to be better than a ilvl 213 crit/vers item, for example. It's not like you get much choice with raid items.

    Quote Originally Posted by burek View Post
    No it's not, because people who aren't raiding will hardly get any invites to M+ because of their obviously lower ilvl.
    this is ridiculous.

  9. #49
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    Good conversation so far. I'm going to have to agree with the people who are saying HC bosses (outside of the last few) are easier than completing a +15. I'm 100% in agreement with that - Tyrannical +15 bosses without overgearing it - plus the timer - are way tougher than HC. Doesn't make sense that the reward is less. The only part about raiding at heroic level to me is organizing that many people. Back when I raided, my guild blew through heroic when it opened in maybe 1-2 days, and then we were banging our heads against mythic bosses. I'm sure some people will have a different opinion.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Thor79 View Post
    Good conversation so far. I'm going to have to agree with the people who are saying HC bosses (outside of the last few) are easier than completing a +15. I'm 100% in agreement with that - Tyrannical +15 bosses without overgearing it - plus the timer - are way tougher than HC. Doesn't make sense that the reward is less.
    The reward is not less. You have to remember that you can run multiple M+ in a week (with less people than in a raid, so gearing up is faster), while raids have a week long lockdown. The weekly chest you get for completing M+ is the proper reward - and it's on a Mythic raid level. It's like you went to a Mythic raid and got one upgrade. By doing content that's a lot easier to organize than a Mythic raid.

  11. #51
    Honestly after six years M+ was the only win under the belts of the current dev team. They could have addressed poor gear systems for PVP and raiding but resorting to nerfs to M+ shows something is not right with the upcoming expansion.
    Battle for Abilities = WoD 2.0


    Quote Originally Posted by Rekz View Post
    I'll trust blizzard over your assessment. They've been doing this for a long time. It may very well be that your class is nerfed in which case, your class will feel as if it doesn't work correctly.

  12. #52
    It's a good change, raiding should always be incentivized as it's the biggest and most social aspect of the game. 5 man content giving the same gear as 20 man content isn't healthy for the game, when it's within the same environment (PvE).

    M+ will still give the second best gear, on average, so it's not impossible to gear through it if you can't raid.

    Personal opinion, of course, I can understand that the people who aren't able to raid for whatever reason considers this a huge blow.

  13. #53
    ilvl still seems a bit too high for that content. Should take off another 10 ilvls, I reckon.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Rafalga View Post
    Only low io scrubs would see this change as positive.
    im sitting at 2.2k io and im happy with this tbh, i really dont enjoy timed content but since i want to raid mythic i was kinda forced to to m+ in bfa i like it this way, i can do mythic+ when i want to to without feeling pressured to do multiple keys to keep up with gear and focus on raiding win win for me
    Last edited by thunderdragon2; 2020-09-17 at 12:55 AM.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Thor79 View Post
    Morning Folks.
    I took a look through the first pages, didn't see a topic on this, if I messed up, I'm sorry, please delete it.

    LINK:https://www.wowhead.com/news=317979/...on-reward-redu

    So, this was rather disturbing to me as a father to be with a busy job - my wow time was already limited, and it's about to become less. The gist of this is, they are going to make M+ loot lower ilvl than heroic raiding, we already know there will only be one piece of loot per M+ dungeon.

    - I'm a player who gets to play in 30-45 minute chunks. M+ was perfect for me, as a former Mythic raider. I got to progress on my schedule, either in a PUG or with a group of friends. I could start a new alt and gear it up myself in M+ without having to commit to a raiding schedule. It's not as challenging as Mythic raiding at the level I play (15-18), but it's something.

    - It will either take a TON longer to gear up in M+, or they are going to have alternate loot paths.

    What's your guys thoughts on this? Am I feeling upset too early? I really don't like it. It feels more like they are trying to push their "raid or die" approach, yet again. I'm sure this will make a lot of (non WF) raiders happy - they won't have to do a ton of M+ grinding, and their gear drops will be slightly better.

    Upset too early. It's not "raid or die". (The melodrama on these forums!)


    This is actually a VERY GOOD change for the game as a whole.

    Because of how easy it is to gear up in M+ (it's faster, spammable, only need 5 people, only need to complete & not time the dungeon in order to get better chest. . . . ) and how good the gear coming from M+ is, it was completely fucking up a different, much older and established system in game: Raiding. With the current system, you'd zerg through Mythic +, and then you'd trivialize equivalent raid content by over-gearing it. I mean, there is a reason why world-first guilds run their mains and alts through high level-keys until their eyeballs bleed so that they gain an edge. So players massively over-gear content from easier mythic plus runs, and then steamroll the raid. And then they sit there and twiddle their thumbs and complain that they have nothing to do. ( I mean, if you didn't see this problem during BFA, you must have had your eyes wide shut the entire expansion.)

    With these changes, it's going to be more difficult to out-gear and steamroll raids, making the relative difficulty higher (which is a good thing!).

    These changes are aimed at players who do both raiding AND mythic plus. Guys who exclusively do raids or exclusively do M+ aren't going to notice this. Because the gear won't be as good, M+ *should* start to be seen as more optional. Do your keys to a certain level to get base-geared, then raid.

    This isn't a "Let's screw all the players over" thing. This is a "Let's fix the loot from this one system so it doesn't completely break two other systems (Going to include pvp gear in this since they tie it closely with the raid levels.)

    In short, you'll still be able to gear up your alt. Your alt isn't going to feel useless in M+. If you're bringing your alt into mythic raids, the alt should be be geared appropriately. With your skill level, you should have no problem at achieving heroic-levels or higher on your alt. If you want mythic level gear, you're either going to have to strive harder, or actually raid mythics.

  16. #56
    I don't raid so i don't care about that aspect.But M+ should be enough to gear me well enough to be on par with hc raiding.I should have the choice to choose what kind of content i want to do.Is it hc raids or M+ for gearing.And they shouldn't differ.
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  17. #57
    How exactly are you going to die because you gear up slower?
    As a father with a busy job, you should worry about that rather than falling behind some imaginary par.
    No matter what it is that you do youll be getting gear rewards from it on a weekly basis.
    If its not the best gear, so what?

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrysis View Post
    Upset too early. It's not "raid or die". (The melodrama on these forums!)


    This is actually a VERY GOOD change for the game as a whole.

    Because of how easy it is to gear up in M+ (it's faster, spammable, only need 5 people, only need to complete & not time the dungeon in order to get better chest. . . . ) and how good the gear coming from M+ is, it was completely fucking up a different, much older and established system in game: Raiding. With the current system, you'd zerg through Mythic +, and then you'd trivialize equivalent raid content by over-gearing it. I mean, there is a reason why world-first guilds run their mains and alts through high level-keys until their eyeballs bleed so that they gain an edge. So players massively over-gear content from easier mythic plus runs, and then steamroll the raid. And then they sit there and twiddle their thumbs and complain that they have nothing to do. ( I mean, if you didn't see this problem during BFA, you must have had your eyes wide shut the entire expansion.)

    With these changes, it's going to be more difficult to out-gear and steamroll raids, making the relative difficulty higher (which is a good thing!).

    These changes are aimed at players who do both raiding AND mythic plus. Guys who exclusively do raids or exclusively do M+ aren't going to notice this. Because the gear won't be as good, M+ *should* start to be seen as more optional. Do your keys to a certain level to get base-geared, then raid.

    This isn't a "Let's screw all the players over" thing. This is a "Let's fix the loot from this one system so it doesn't completely break two other systems (Going to include pvp gear in this since they tie it closely with the raid levels.)

    In short, you'll still be able to gear up your alt. Your alt isn't going to feel useless in M+. If you're bringing your alt into mythic raids, the alt should be be geared appropriately. With your skill level, you should have no problem at achieving heroic-levels or higher on your alt. If you want mythic level gear, you're either going to have to strive harder, or actually raid mythics.
    Not really sure you know how any of the systems worked. M+ is always capped gear wise before mythic release so top end raiders have to run the raid dozens of times for gear and not m+. If you’re in a top end guild you’re not spamming m+ for gear; you’re doing it in your down time. The rest of the time is spent raiding.

    M+ wasn’t taking away from raiding; it was just an alternate form of content outside of raiding with worse rewards and occasional pieces people want to farm. You could gear through m+ to a reasonable ilvl and therefor had a chance to get into pugs as a non-raider. That just will not be the case anymore. All this change does is create more gates for new players or for current players who are only interested in 5 man content. It’s a much bigger problem making raiding(mythic raiding even) a prerequisite for m+ than the inverse.

    As someone who mythic raids and also has a group to do m+ with this change will hardly effect me. It will effect people less privileged than me that are either new to the game or just don’t enjoy raiding or can’t raid for whatever reason.

    These changes just don’t get any new players into 5 man content, makes them less farmable and appealing, and just told all the mdi players who don’t raid that the past two expansions were just a false hope for 5 man content being relevant.
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  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Rtrain View Post
    Not really sure you know how any of the systems worked. M+ is always capped gear wise before mythic release so top end raiders have to run the raid dozens of times for gear and not m+. If you’re in a top end guild you’re not spamming m+ for gear; you’re doing it in your down time. The rest of the time is spent raiding.

    M+ wasn’t taking away from raiding; it was just an alternate form of content outside of raiding with worse rewards and occasional pieces people want to farm. You could gear through m+ to a reasonable ilvl and therefor had a chance to get into pugs as a non-raider. That just will not be the case anymore. All this change does is create more gates for new players or for current players who are only interested in 5 man content. It’s a much bigger problem making raiding(mythic raiding even) a prerequisite for m+ than the inverse.

    As someone who mythic raids and also has a group to do m+ with this change will hardly effect me. It will effect people less privileged than me that are either new to the game or just don’t enjoy raiding or can’t raid for whatever reason.

    These changes just don’t get any new players into 5 man content, makes them less farmable and appealing, and just told all the mdi players who don’t raid that the past two expansions were just a false hope for 5 man content being relevant.
    Funny, I distinctly remember watching streams of Method players running dungeons 20 times a day on mains and alts every time a new tier came out. I'm pretty sure they weren't doing that because they were all madly in love with running M+ that much.

    Less gear is going to drop, but you'll be able to better target drops that you want. That's probably much better than getting boots 2 months in a row from the M+ chest. And now, you can get stuff from raiding too! Oh, are we talking about ilevels? Well, M+ has access to everything except the ilevels from the last two bosses on mythic. The fraction of players that do 13 and 14 keys the moment they unlock is pretty small. They don't really have the option of turning down people because they don't have gear from the last two bosses from Mythic Castle Nathria. IO score is going to be the rule of thumb as it has been for a while.

    And the the way the new chest system works, there will be even more reason to farm M+. Let's be honest. Many people just did their level 10 for the weekly chest, then logged off. Now, because more runs at a higher level means more options, players are more likely to want to farm M+ even more. Maybe their BIS trinket comes from one dungeon. Now they have more options of getting it if they do 5 dungeons at the same level instead of just one. Or maybe they have some gaps in their gear, so that would help.


    Now, look at this from a developer standpoint. M+ right now is acting like a much accelerated form of split raids. It's allowing raiders an easy time of leap-frogging over content. If you look at much earlier raids, you needed to complete one tier of content before you could progress in the next. It slowed down raid progression immensely. Raids are extremely important to the game in terms of both content and storytelling. They have always been the centerpiece of end game. They also require large amounts of resources to create. If players consume them too fast, they'll get bored while developers are working on the next patch to replace it.

    TL; DR -- This is still a change to slow down gearing to preserve the rate at which players consume new content. Only stupid idiots are going to require mythic raids for M+ and you wouldn't want to burn your key with them anyways; IO score is more likely to still be king of getting into groups.

  20. #60
    If +18 or so is your sole endgame you don't really need a higher Ilvl than that. Personally I don't really like m+ so anything that makes them feel less required is a positive in my book.

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