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  1. #21
    Yeah I mean who wouldn't want to live in the Nya'lotha versions of SW/Org? They seem swell.
    Quote Originally Posted by Daevelian View Post
    So this is how far the Lore forum has fallen? Eesh.
    I take it back, BfA is not the lowest the games lore could have gone, this thread proves that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    And just like the thread before it, let's back away from sexualizing Azshara and return to the original topic at hand.

  2. #22
    There is no good guys in the cosmic forces .

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Angrie View Post
    That's close to what i'm saying. What i'm suggesting is that the NATHREZIM fooled everyone because the void is the only force that can stop them. N'zoth literally states, "Only I can save this world. Yield... and serve". We have been conditioned to believe everything the void says is a lie... but what if it's not? It sounds more like a warning than a lie. If Xe'ra said, the same line, we would immediately believe and yield. The Nathrezim made it so the only force that knows what's happening is silenced.

    Alleria says, "As the naaru lay dying, L'ura's essence called to me. A being born of the Light hand turned to shadow.
    It was a familiar sensation.
    The transformation you witnessed is under my control, to be used when I see fit. I am the same person I was... and yet, something more.
    The use of such power makes some... uneasy. But shadow is a force to be harnessed, not feared.
    As with any weapon, one must maintain constant control when wielding it."

    Also, "High Exarch Turalyon says: Has the downfall of the Old God brought you at least a measure of peace?
    Alleria Windrunner says: The whispers did not end with his defeat. In fact, it seems new voices have joined the chorus. When I think of the nightmare he forced into my mind…


    Nightmare could also be a truth. Alleria is also not the jedi master of the void either, she has little understanding of it. I see Xala'tath possibly filling the role or Locus-Walker of our void navigator.
    you are overestimating the nathrezim and the jailer. they wont be the big bads, simply bc well beat their asses this addon.
    and even if the nathrezim started shit back in the day, the void lords are still "unfathomably evil"
    their end goal is to eternally torture and consume the universe lawl. sounds like bros to me
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  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Angrie View Post
    That's close to what i'm saying. What i'm suggesting is that the NATHREZIM fooled everyone because the void is the only force that can stop them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angrie View Post
    What if the visions of N'Zoth, old gods, Ny'alotha, all of it was just the LIGHTS vision of it, and not what it actually looks like? Perhaps it's just a veil over our eyes when infact the void looks like the Dream/heaven/etc (pretty and beautiful, not purple).
    You seem to be saying so many things, you can't keep them straight yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Angrie View Post
    If Xe'ra said, the same line, we would immediately believe and yield.
    She did, and we didn't.

    The Jailer isn't a good guy. Neither are the Void Lords. If they really are trying to warn us, it's only because a victory for Death is a loss for them.

  5. #25
    The Void and the Light represent extremes. Neither being good.
    The Void is ultimate chaos, while the Light is ultimate order. Neither is good nor evil, but both are equally destructive to Life.

    Both are equally capable of corruption. Paladins being people corrupted by the Light, with the Light Nathrezim from Legion being literally a Nathrezim that has been corrupted by the Light. Xe'ra attempted to corrupt Illidan, the same way as the Old Gods corrupt people and turn them into Twilight's Hammer followers.

    The Naaru are the envoys of the Light.
    The Old Gods are the envoys of the Void Lords.

    The Light is not to be trusted either, because if reigned unopposed by the Shadow, it would turn the Universe into the ultimate order, a glimmer of which you have already seen in the Mag'har's questline, with Yrel basically becoming fully corrupted into bringing about the Light's order.
    Last edited by The Butt Witch; 2020-09-16 at 04:48 PM.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Pebrocks The Warlock View Post
    Every Cosmic force thinks they're the "good guys" who should rule everyone else. Being the "lesser evil", even by a small amount, doesn't make you right.
    Exactly what I was going to say, all the cosmic forces that are fighting for dominance are the same shit different pile.
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  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Villager720 View Post
    I think it's safe to assume none of the cosmic orders are on our side (except maaaaaaybe life).

    The Light makes beings feel good so they follow/worship - to what end though, we know not. Also Naaru eat souls - so that's a thing.
    On the flipside, the Void drives mortals "insane" and corrupts/warps their physical form - to what end, we know not. But it certainly hasn't done anything benevolent in the pursuit of it's goals.
    Death seemingly wants to control (re:kill) everything. That was certainly Arthas' thought process, and might mirror Sylvie's and the Jailer's aims as well.
    The Titans (re:Order) used to glass planets (re:Algalon) if they found them too disorderly or "corrupted" (by their subjective perspective). Not exactly wholesome.
    And the Burning Legion (re:Disorder) is bent on ending existence.

    And then there is life... which I think is ...us? Maybe? Life, its "pantheon" and its motivations, are definitely the least defined and thus it is difficult to speculate on.
    I think Life might be where the true heritage of the Nathrezim sits on cosmic scale. I think people forget that they are designed to make you do what they want: See Arthas and Mal'ganis.

    Wouldn't it be something if the Jailer and Elune are both seated next to Nathrezim? The Jailer appears to be of Nathrezim DNA, wouldn't it be logical to have a life counterpart (Aman'thul//Sargaras)? The Arbiter likely also has a life counter part.

    Think about this for a second. If the Jailer breaks death, the order across the aisle is Life. Life gains power and it's a force that doesn't have a face, just names and servants. What does breaking life look like? Immortality?

    To my point, the Void is the only force that could possibly see ALL of the malicious intent and is now silenced. Xala'tath says "We will meet again... i am certain of it". I think it'll be an, "i told you so" moment.

  8. #28
    All 6 cosmic forces are competing with each other.

    They are all ganging up on the Void first because the Void has an edge in that it can see the future.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by The Butt Witch View Post
    The Void and the Light represent extremes. Neither being good.
    The Void is ultimate chaos, while the Light is ultimate order. Neither is good nor evil, but both are equally destructive to Life.

    Both are equally capable of corruption. Paladins being people corrupted by the Light, with the Light Nathrezim from Legion being literally a Nathrezim that has been corrupted by the Light. Xe'ra attempted to corrupt Illidan, the same way as the Old Gods corrupt people and turn them into Twilight's Hammer followers.

    The Naaru are the envoys of the Light.
    The Old Gods are the envoys of the Void Lords.

    The Light is not to be trusted either, because if reigned unopposed by the Shadow, it would turn the Universe into the ultimate order, a glimmer of which you have already seen in the Mag'har's questline, with Yrel basically becoming fully corrupted into bringing about the Light's order.
    This.
    Void Lords have an opposite within their own faction. As does the light.

    The tool of the Void is its ability to see all truths, the tool of the Light is there being only 1 truth. We silenced the 1 that is the most useful.

    Think of Avengers: Infinity War, the scene with Dr Strange saying there's 14 million outcomes, only 1 they win. Without the void we don't have the knowledge of the 14million outcomes, we have the lights one and only path - which could be bad. N'zoth saying, i can save this world! Might just be the path that is the 1 in 14 million.

    I kind of hope it is true, it would be good story telling despite it being kinda stolen... meh
    Last edited by Angrie; 2020-09-16 at 05:00 PM.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Angrie View Post
    As more is revealed, it seems like the ultimate bad guy in the universe is the Nathrezim and who they serve (likely death). We've been fed that the Light is good, Void is bad, Order is good, Disorder is bad, Life is Good, Death is Bad. However what if the Void is actually "good"? I think Blizzard is setting up the next Expansion to be a Void expansion.

    Here's my thoughts on this:
    Illidan straight up, declines the light's gift.
    The GIFT of N'Zoth. N'Zoth gave us this "gift" that no one really knew what it was, a buff? does it do anything? I think his gift was to be void-touched and to see multiple truths. The light, opposite of the void, sees only one truth - Sylvanas is bad. Void is bad. Sargaras is bad. Fel is bad. Etc. Anduin is going to the SL with us and Turalyon "claims the vacant throne." This light "truths" are pushed on us as the only truth.

    During the N'Zoth encounter, He says, "You know not what you do." Possibly meaning we're stopping the void, the force that Nathrezim cannot fight, because the void can see through them. He also states, "Only I can save this world. Yield... and serve!" What if this is the truth? What if N'Zoth and the void is the only force that can stop what is to come?

    What if the visions of N'Zoth, old gods, Ny'alotha, all of it was just the LIGHTS vision of it, and not what it actually looks like? Perhaps it's just a veil over our eyes when infact the void looks like the Dream/heaven/etc (pretty and beautiful, not purple).

    I think the next expansion will be Void Heavy, Alleria being a main character. Xala'tath states she'll see us again, she's certain of it, will she return with the next conflict?

    I think there's more to the void than what we're being told.
    You misattribute subjective values to natural forces. The Void just is, The light just is. The Fel just is, Death just is, etc. What you can ascribe subjective values to are the beings using those natural forces. Though if you asked them they're subjectively good even though they do objectively bad things. A Naaru would see it as good if everything was ordered and nothing was a surprise that could cause chaos.

    Fire just is and someone who sees their house burning down would call fire evil and someone who's dying from hypothermia and finds a fire to warm themselves by would call it good

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Angrie View Post

    Think of Avengers: Infinity War, the scene with Dr Strange saying there's 14 million outcomes, only 1 they win. Without the void we don't have the knowledge of the 14million outcomes, we have the lights one and only path - which could be bad. N'zoth saying, i can save this world! Might just be the path that is the 1 in 14 million.
    We do, it would be 14 million versions of body horror. The Void is uncontrollable chaos, and uncontrollable chaos would be your legs turning into a live chicken still connected to your hips. An alternative to that would be them running into a dead chicken attached to your hips. So there's two out of your 14 millions possibilities.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by SirBeef View Post
    Players and in game characters have assumed the light is good, mainly because they have helped us out. In Legion we were shown they might not be as good and wholesome as we thought. However, I'd rather exist than not exist so I can't see the Void being good. You know, since they want to destroy existence.
    I thought the void wanted to corrupt existence? Wasn't it the fel that want's to destroy existence?
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  12. #32
    Legendary! Ealyssa's Avatar
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    Sargeras went mad by just learning about the void lords and their goal. Let just sink that for a second.

    While the "light" may not be all good and kind. The void definitely isn't a force of good.
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  13. #33
    The forces are neither good or evil , they are the forces that shape the universe.
    All the forces acting on the universe gave meaning and free will to life forms in the universe.
    Any force gaining total dominance would make existence hell.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Ealyssa View Post
    Sargeras went mad by just learning about the void lords and their goal. Let just sink that for a second.

    While the "light" may not be all good and kind. The void definitely isn't a force of good.
    Alleria: "As the naaru lay dying, L'ura's essence called to me. A being born of the Light hand turned to shadow.
    It was a familiar sensation.
    The transformation you witnessed is under my control, to be used when I see fit.
    I am the same person I was... and yet, something more.
    The use of such power makes some... uneasy. But shadow is a force to be harnessed, not feared.
    As with any weapon, one must maintain constant control when wielding it."

    How is the bold area saying, "evil forces at play"?

    I think you're looking at anything that is polar opposite as automatically evil, which isn't the case.

    Life and Death -- Life Good, Death Bad. But from what we can see from SL is that Death has Good, given the 4 covenants. The Maw is where the bad is.
    Order -- Pantheon is good, Sargeras is (turned) bad.

    So if there's good and bad in all forces, then Void has good and bad. Locus-Walker is clearly good, Alleria good. What if the Visions we see are the Light's vision and NOT the voids vision? The visions are what your perception is: So if your perception is the void is evil you'll see only evil, if good, you'll see only good. Since the Light sees it as evil, we saw visions that way. N'zoth and followers would not see visions as evil because they don't view it as evil; don't understand the light's perception of the void.

    As the story goes, all the old gods hated one another, but they ALL hated N'Zoth the most. Why is that? Maybe cause he was the "good" one? If the Pantheon has mostly good members, with 1 bad one... couldn't the old gods be the opposite: Mostly evil, with 1 good? Death, 4 good, 1 bad. Possible this formula is with all cosmic forces.

    EDIT: Don't you think it's weird that N'Zoth picked a weird time to be freed? He had the ability to be freed any time. Heck, should have done it when we were on Argus, Draenor, Outlands, fighting Yogg'Saron, etc No, he picked when he saw malicious intent with Sylvanas and Queen Azshara. He gives us this information in the encounter after prior attempts to join him fail. He saw something there that we were blind to. Why did he do that if he's the "bad" guy? He saw us defeating him and at the same time needing him for what is coming.

    I know this is WAY out of bounds, but i think it's fun to talk about - if it's the way they go, i think would be even cooler.
    Last edited by Angrie; 2020-09-16 at 06:04 PM.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by gcsmith View Post
    I thought the void wanted to corrupt existence? Wasn't it the fel that want's to destroy existence?
    It's been a while since I've read my Chronicles, but I was under the impression they were tossing old gods all over the place to corrupt a incubating titan to destroy our plane of existence because they can't do it themselves. I could be wrong, or it may have changed.

  16. #36
    Legendary! Ealyssa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angrie View Post
    How is the bold area saying, "evil forces at play"?
    Where did I say it was ?
    Basic reading skills are missing
    Quote Originally Posted by primalmatter View Post
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  17. #37
    The Lightbringer Darknessvamp's Avatar
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    There are no good or bad guys in WoW anymore, they're all just forces who each have their own goals they wish to achieve now and the player races are the aberrations that either get involved or stand in the way of allowing those goals to be achieved despite the fact we also enable others goals to inch forward at the same time each time we do something whenever they end up converging on this one planet... apparently.

    I mean literally keeping Azeroth alive is helping the Titans meet their goals and we still don't know what a Titan being born means for the inhabitants of that planet not to mention it also helps the Void as they still have an opportunity to make a "Dark Titan" whatever that means but it directly impedes Death and Fel maybe, apparently we don't know if the Cosmic force even has a goal or leaders, and Light and Nature aren't exactly clear on their stance concerning Titan Egg Planets.
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  18. #38
    The Lightbringer Azerox's Avatar
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    The void and the light will turn out to be one and the same.
    Like how that void crystal for Ashbringer became light.

    Elune it's master.
    Void/Night Elf Paladins announced.
    World of Warcraft: Call of the Void
    Last edited by Azerox; 2020-09-16 at 07:21 PM.
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  19. #39
    Elemental Lord Kyphael's Avatar
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    So Old Gods are benevolent? Don't serve me a bowl of horse shit and tell me it's chocolate ice cream. As already mentioned, no one cosmic force seems whole "good", especially since newest developments of The Light, but forces like The Void, Fel, and Death especially have shown a greater affinity for backing malevolent beings, or even corrupting easily corruptible mortals to do their bidding. Life, Arcane, and most notably Light recently have shown they can also be used for evil in the wrong hands, but the former 3 have historically definitely done more harm than "good" as far as balance in the universe goes. They're the three more power-hungry forces.

  20. #40
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    Both the Void and Light are both 'forces'. Neither good or evil. Both have their minions, and both control them in different ways.

    The Light suppresses individuality by enforcing religious dogma. Followers of the Light like Humans and Draenei can only utilize the Light's power by questioning belief. See the cinematic Rejection of the Gift the best cinematic in Warcraft history. "I've traded my freedom for power once before."

    The Void, on the other hand, finances individuality. It speaks to the hopes and dreams, the fears and insecurities of every one it touches. It promises power in exchange for protection from threats both real and imaginary. The Void doesn't need fealty like the Light. In fact, it thrives under powerful personalities like Cho'gall, Garrosh, and even the Player.

    NEITHER are right or wrong. They are basically animals on instinct, thinking only to survive and spread, each in their own way.

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