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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Powerogue View Post
    Yeah I mean who wouldn't want to live in the Nya'lotha versions of SW/Org? They seem swell.
    Maybe the Void views us as totally evil like Nazi-level evil so they will do anything to absolutely destroy us. Under normal circumstances, that would not be the fate they would show us but they are at war with us.

  2. #62
    Stood in the Fire Recovery's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mic_128 View Post
    Oh my god, this is the stupidest thing I ever heard. Do you argue that Fire perhaps isn't trying to burn down someone's house, it just wants to remodel it, and the fire fighters are evil for trying to flood it with water?

    The Void has outright said what it's goals are. There is no question about their preferred end-game: Them infesting everything, having consumed and turned everything to the Void.
    To be fair, Fire also cleanses and paves the way for new life.

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Recovery View Post
    To be fair, Fire also cleanses and paves the way for new life.
    fire can keep you warm when cold is trying to kill you.

  4. #64
    Insanity and tentacles doesn't sound so swell so i'll pass.

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by voidox View Post
    how is there a point of view for actions of void lords? or demons? corruption/mass destruction/genocide/murder/consuming/so on.... there is no "pov" on things like that, they are evil

    meanwhile, light/life/order have not done anything like that... so like, how can you make a statement when some forces are literally destroying everything while others are saving/protecting/helping/so on



    this... makes no sense. And Titans do not just have an "idea" of order, they literally have brought order to countless planets in the cosmos. They have created devices, machinery, structures, creatures and so on to help and protect worlds.

    fel, death, void, arcane, light, life... these are all cosmic forces that can be used by anyone for anything (good or evil as we've seen before for each power), who cares if the titans used another force.

    creations of titans have free will, i.e. what they do is not a reflection of the titans



    actions of ONE naaru =/= all naaru

    naaru =/= light, naaru are just beings made of light, not the light itself

    light is just another cosmic force like fel, void, death, arcane and so on... all can and have been used for good/evil, though each force does have a particular nature and characteristic to it

    in case of light: the Light is often said to bring about feelings of positive emotion—hope, courage, comfort—and the like, Shadow abilities are the opposite, able to impart feelings like despair, doubt, and panic

    e.g. using light = no real issue but you need faith, while using void = constant fight against voices/losing ur mind



    so.... ur trying to say that something the dark naaru did, and it's arguable if dark naaru are even still naaru as they are void creatures, means that all naaru "consume souls" or that entire naaru race should be blamed for that? wat?

    and no naaru has ever shown to "consume souls"
    Those were just some examples of how the Light had done different things. There are a couple others since different points of view in the Light is a new concept in lore, starting in Legion.

    After Xe'ra is killed by Illidan, Velen says:

    The loss of Xe'ra is a blow, especially to Turalyon. But even the Light Mother could not be allowed to force destiny upon us.

    I wish Illidan had found another way to refuse her... but I too have had choices imposed upon me by the naaru.
    This implies that other Naaru, and the Light itself, have forced other decisions on other people.

    As far as destroying entire worlds, we have evidence that the Light can do that too in the Mag'har scenario. That entire quest shows how the Light has been acting on AU Draenor. I mean, the quest is called Tyranny of the Light.

    Toward the end, when the Mag'har and Lightbound fight, these exchanges happens:

    Exarch Orelis says: The naaru offer us peace and order!
    Overlord Geya'rah says: You mean subjugation!
    Exarch Orelis says: Give up your hate! The Light can heal the scars of war!
    Overlord Geya'rah says: Our scars are not yours to take!
    Exarch Orelis says: This once-fertile land is now lifeless dust. That's what your hate has done!
    High Exarch Yrel yells: Your people are choking the life from this world... dooming the land to desiccation.
    Grommash Hellscream yells: How can you be so blind, Yrel? It is the Light that has doomed this world!
    High Exarch Yrel yells: It pains me to lose an old friend, Grommash. But... very well. We will settle this your way.
    So, yes, the Light has also destroyed the land, like fel and Void have. Draenor is a dusty, dead place when we go to recruit the Mag'har. They are also lead by a "Light Mother" but it's not stated to be Xe'ra.

    And for your point of "one Naaru =/= all Naaru" and "Naaru =/= the Light" - you know that they are doing the will of the Light, right? That the Army of the Light (created in both timelines) are spearheaded by the Naaru to enforce the will of the Light, right? Like, that's not even debatable, it's stated in-game and in A Thousand Years of War.

    As far as different points of view for the Void, we've seen/heard of that as well. Despite the Old Gods having one purpose, they have also warred against one another. This is mentioned in Chronicle, the dungeon journal, Xal'atath, etc. We also hear in this interview that their plans for Void Lords are to have them not unified in a singular purpose, and that they have their own goals and personalities.

    Again, this is fairly new lore. We haven't seen the full manifestation of one in-game yet. Xal'atath implies that Dimensius was one. We'll likely see more of this as more lore is introduced.

    As far as demons, again, we see demons that work with us. We see demons that oppose the Burning Legion and have defected from them. We've seen people (players and NPCs) that use fel for good - that's Illidan's whole schtick, y'know. The whole point of the Burning Legion itself was to destroy everything before the Void could corrupt it, as well, which was a good intention that was extremely misguided.
    Last edited by Destinas; 2020-09-17 at 09:02 PM.
    3 hints to surviving MMO-C forums:
    1.) If you have an opinion, someone will say that it is wrong
    2.) If you have a source, there will be people who refuse to believe it
    3.) If you use logic, it will be largely ignored
    btw: Spires of Arak = Arakkoa.

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Destinas View Post
    Those were just some examples of how the Light had done different things. There are a couple others since different points of view in the Light is a new concept in lore, starting in Legion.
    again, actions of naaru =/= light itself, this is a key distinction to make

    and again, actions of ONE naaru =/= all naaru

    this idea that the naaru are suddenly all "secretly evil" cause of Xe'ra's actions <--- actions btw, which helped slow down and ultimately defeat the legion, i.e. protecting entire cosmos from them. Sure her actions went overboard, but her goal was never to enslave, conquer, or w.e. It was to defeat the legion for the future/vision she saw, for thousand+ years

    This implies that other Naaru, and the Light itself, have forced other decisions on other people.
    sure, it might imply other naaru may have done this, but it does not imply the light itself... naaru are just beings, like other being in warcraft, made of light. They are not the light itself as they are beings with free will of their own

    as I said, light/void/fel/arcane/so on are all just cosmic forces that all can, and have, been used for good/evil. But each force has it's own characteristic/nature

    As far as destroying entire worlds, we have evidence that the Light can do that too in the Mag'har scenario. That entire quest shows how the Light has been acting on AU Draenor. I mean, the quest is called Tyranny of the Light. So, yes, the Light has also destroyed the land, like fel and Void have.
    we have one side of the story, and both sides were blaming the other for the death of the planet. There is no proof that it was the light, it could easily have been the ex-iron horde killing the planet. Or heck, BOTH sides contributing to the planet dying.

    So no, light has not destroyed land

    They are also lead by a "Light Mother" but it's not stated to be Xe'ra.
    yup, Xe'ra again... same naaru going extreme does not mean ALL naaru are now "secretly evil" or w.e

    same thing with the titans: sargeras going mad does not make all titans evil

    And for your point of "one Naaru =/= all Naaru" and "Naaru =/= the Light" - you know that they are doing the will of the Light, right? That the Army of the Light (created in both timelines) are spearheaded by the Naaru to enforce the will of the Light, right? Like, that's not even debatable, it's stated in-game and in A Thousand Years of War.
    they? all naaru?

    we have seen ONE naaru doing these actions, almost every other naaru we've ever seen has done nothing but protect/heal/guide/help/so on

    and no, the army of the light in the main universe was created to fight and stop the legion. Sure that was the "will" of Xe'ra, but it was in benefit of all. And at this point in time, the army of the light in main universe is gone.

    I'm sure AU xe'ra and yrel will invade in some future expansion, we'll defeat them and all that. Doesn't make all naaru or light itself evil, as I've said many times, cosmic forces can and have been used for good/evil before.

    as for "will of the light", light itself is just a force, it has no will. The naaru have a will and such based on their singular vision of the future, just like the void/fel/death/so on all do. And it's been a long time since thousand year war, but reading a summary of it, there is not real mention of "will of the light", just Xe'ra doing her thing and believing her vision of the future.

    as for rest of ur post, not sure why you typed that since it's what I was saying, and repeated here: all forces can be used for good/evil, as you then gave examples for~
    Last edited by voidox; 2020-09-18 at 04:19 PM.

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by voidox View Post
    again, actions of naaru =/= light itself, this is a key distinction to make

    and again, actions of ONE naaru =/= all naaru

    this idea that the naaru are suddenly all "secretly evil" cause of Xe'ra's actions <--- actions btw, which helped slow down and ultimately defeat the legion, i.e. protecting entire cosmos from them. Sure her actions went overboard, but her goal was never to enslave, conquer, or w.e. It was to defeat the legion for the future/vision she saw, for thousand+ years



    sure, it might imply other naaru may have done this, but it does not imply the light itself... naaru are just beings, like other being in warcraft, made of light. They are not the light itself as they are beings with free will of their own

    as I said, light/void/fel/arcane/so on are all just cosmic forces that all can, and have, been used for good/evil. But each force has it's own characteristic/nature



    we have one side of the story, and both sides were blaming the other for the death of the planet. There is no proof that it was the light, it could easily have been the ex-iron horde killing the planet. Or heck, BOTH sides contributing to the planet dying.

    So no, light has not destroyed land



    yup, Xe'ra again... same naaru going extreme does not mean ALL naaru are now "secretly evil" or w.e

    same thing with the titans: sargeras going mad does not make all titans evil



    they? all naaru?

    we have seen ONE naaru doing these actions, almost every other naaru we've ever seen has done nothing but protect/heal/guide/help/so on

    and no, the army of the light in the main universe was created to fight and stop the legion. Sure that was the "will" of Xe'ra, but it was in benefit of all. And at this point in time, the army of the light in main universe is gone.

    I'm sure AU xe'ra and yrel will invade in some future expansion, we'll defeat them and all that. Doesn't make all naaru or light itself evil, as I've said many times, cosmic forces can and have been used for good/evil before.

    as for "will of the light", light itself is just a force, it has no will. The naaru have a will and such based on their singular vision of the future, just like the void/fel/death/so on all do. And it's been a long time since thousand year war, but reading a summary of it, there is not real mention of "will of the light", just Xe'ra doing her thing and believing her vision of the future.

    as for rest of ur post, not sure why you typed that since it's what I was saying, and repeated here: all forces can be used for good/evil, as you then gave examples for~
    Well, it's clear you're going to read whatever you like in the clear text, ignoring lore that's stated and known for a while by now. I never said the Light is only "evil" in any of these posts. I've only said that every force has different viewpoints, and showed that with examples.

    Every force has had good and evil actors working on its behalf. Every cosmic energy can be used for good or evil, and they all have different viewpoints of each other. This is a narrative that is pushed further and further in lore as time goes on in novels, audio books, short stories, official videos, cinematics, and of course the game.
    3 hints to surviving MMO-C forums:
    1.) If you have an opinion, someone will say that it is wrong
    2.) If you have a source, there will be people who refuse to believe it
    3.) If you use logic, it will be largely ignored
    btw: Spires of Arak = Arakkoa.

  8. #68
    Elemental Lord Golden Yak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Die View Post
    fire can keep you warm when cold is trying to kill you.
    Build a man a fire, and he's warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he's warm for the rest of his life.

  9. #69


    Clearly the words of a "good" guy.

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Timester View Post


    Clearly the words of a "good" guy.

    He did fall to the void and became a twilight cultist.....all who deal with the void run the risk of losing their minds it makes you crazy.-_-

  11. #71
    This is Warcraft... everyone's a dick head.

  12. #72
    Elemental Lord Golden Yak's Avatar
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    None of the cosmic powers are entirely good or evil, and taken to the extreme would be undesirable for mortals (though some are worse than others).

    Void is the essence of possibility, and without possibility people would have no dreams for a better future. But obviously too much possibility leads to the chaotic and insane jumble of visions and monsters that pure Void is known for.

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by Destinas View Post
    Well, it's clear you're going to read whatever you like in the clear text, ignoring lore that's stated and known for a while by now. I never said the Light is only "evil" in any of these posts. I've only said that every force has different viewpoints, and showed that with examples.

    Every force has had good and evil actors working on its behalf. Every cosmic energy can be used for good or evil, and they all have different viewpoints of each other. This is a narrative that is pushed further and further in lore as time goes on in novels, audio books, short stories, official videos, cinematics, and of course the game.
    lul, you were the one making indications that all light is evil and forcing on others, just cause of Xe'ra. One quote from ur OP to this effect: "This implies that other Naaru, and the Light itself, have forced other decisions on other people."

    so ya, this is wrong, and in fact you reading into things how you want and ignoring what is stated in the lore, hence why I replied to your OP


    ur reply here is something I agree with, cause it's basically what I was saying... except on this part:

    "Every force has had good and evil actors working on its behalf"

    nah, the forces themselves are not sentient or anything, it's the beings that formed from said forces that have the actors working for em. And no, naaru don't have "evil actors" working for them in the same way void lords don't have "good actors" working for them. Same for burning legion, demons, wild gods, titans and so on... not everyone is "morally grey", despite what Danuser want it to be, though there are for sure some exceptions

    EDIT - sorry on thread necro, just wanted to reply~


    Last edited by voidox; 2020-10-04 at 05:50 AM.

  14. #74
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    I don't know why people keep saying Void expansion next, it's clearly a LIFE expansion next. Life and Death!?!?!? Get it?
    Quote Originally Posted by Surreal
    grim toll is the worst trinket you could get for survival. Hands down Meteorite wheat stone is better than it.

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by Space Troll View Post
    I don't know why people keep saying Void expansion next, it's clearly a LIFE expansion next. Life and Death!?!?!? Get it?
    I thought people have been saying a Cosmic expansion involving all the Cosmic powers fighting for control.
    Quote Originally Posted by FreeHongKong View Post
    Because we live in a place of freedom of speech
    Quote Originally Posted by FreeHongKong View Post
    Stop talking.

  16. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pebrocks The Warlock View Post
    I thought people have been saying a Cosmic expansion involving all the Cosmic powers fighting for control.
    Could be, then we realize we're just part of a multi-part system of multiverses.
    Quote Originally Posted by Surreal
    grim toll is the worst trinket you could get for survival. Hands down Meteorite wheat stone is better than it.

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by Pebrocks The Warlock View Post
    Every Cosmic force thinks they're the "good guys" who should rule everyone else. Being the "lesser evil", even by a small amount, doesn't make you right.
    I believe that's the definition of objectively right, actually.
    Evil is in the eye of the beholder, though.

  18. #78
    OP may be half-right.

    The cosmic powers are in constant war with each other, hence their antagonism.

    Now, some of them may even forge alliances to overpower the others, and this is where shit starts to stir. Light tried to claim Fel through Illidan, now it tries to claim Death through Anduin. Also remember that Fel was strongly against the Void, and that's why the Light wanted it.

    In comparison, Void tries to claim Order, since they're injecting planets with their old gods, and ultimately want to use a World Soul to manifest themselves.

    So Void and Order vs Light and Death. yay

  19. #79
    On the one hand you have the Light, a higher power that loves its faithful, inspires confidence and bliss within them and basically never abandons them even if they're doubtful and have abused the power that was offered to them by the Light.

    On the other hand we have the Void which corrupts and twists the minds and bodies of its followers, turns them totally insane and only spreads misery and domination of all Life.

    WoW players: They're the same thing.

  20. #80
    What is good and evil is based on who's interpreting it.
    Hi

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