Page 10 of 25 FirstFirst ...
8
9
10
11
12
20
... LastLast
  1. #181
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    They are deliberately reducing loot acquisition in M+ and raids. Since I am talking about people that don't do M+ or raids, what does that have to do with anything?
    Players that don't do M+ or raids don't need gear, so it's kind of a pointless argument

  2. #182
    Quote Originally Posted by Bennett View Post
    I'm truly surprised at how many people are trying to put raiding and dungeons on the same level. For obvious reasons dungeons are objectively easier to clear and farm - they shouldn't give the same rewards a raid can, because as BFA shows us it really harms the incentive to raid.

    They're not mutually exclusive content - you can do the raid once a week for the best items you can get at your difficulty level, and M+ inbetween that to sure up the places you didn't get lucky in - now, that doesn't mean you're wrong to just do M+ if you like - that's how I played BFA pretty much, but you shouldn't complain doing only the easier content doesn't give equal rewards (which in a way it still does because of the weekly chest)
    Why keep arenas and high end PvP out of the equation? That takes skill and commitment and in fact is easier to organize... You only need 1-2 of your friends and you can play arenas at any time during the day.

    If you're gonna go down that path then why not go all out?

    Hell if you wish to get BIS from head to toe, 2.4k arena rating should be mandatory. In fact, the best trinkets in the game should be arena exclusive. Best weapons should come from mythic raiding? How does that sound?

  3. #183
    Quote Originally Posted by Bennett View Post
    Players that don't do M+ or raids don't need gear, so it's kind of a pointless argument
    And that's exactly the dismissive attitude I am talking about. Because people don't play the game like you, you think they don't deserve to have a game to play.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  4. #184
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    If the game throws gear at you so fast that you trivialize all content except M+ and raids within a couple of weeks, you really aren't free to do whatever you want. What you want is over after two weeks.

    This would be like if the new raid had one boss and when you killed it you got a full set of maxed out gear and then when you complain someone says "Well you can still raid however you want". It's nonsense.
    Isn't that part of why they are reducing gear rewards in SL? So that you can't get fully geared in 5 minutes and each player can progress their throw own gear progression system of choice (be it raiding, M+, PvP or just solo world content).
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

  5. #185
    Quote Originally Posted by Gorsameth View Post
    Isn't that part of why they are reducing gear rewards in SL? So that you can't get fully geared in 5 minutes and each player can progress their throw own gear progression system of choice (be it raiding, M+, PvP or just solo world content).
    It doesn't seem like the underlying problem of reaching the "Now I have to do M+ or raids" level too quickly. It seems like the throttling is only once you hit that point.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  6. #186
    Quote Originally Posted by SanitariumZ View Post
    Why keep arenas and high end PvP out of the equation? That takes skill and commitment and in fact is easier to organize... You only need 1-2 of your friends and you can play arenas at any time during the day.

    If you're gonna go down that path then why not go all out?

    Hell if you wish to get BIS from head to toe, 2.4k arena rating should be mandatory. In fact, the best trinkets in the game should be arena exclusive. Best weapons should come from mythic raiding? How does that sound?
    PVP and PVE are different worlds, espeically now they're taking measures to make pvp actually better in pvp than pve gear, and it's like pvp won't be that great in pve if you aren't a vers class. I don't care about PVP so me talking about it wouldn't be fair or informed

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    And that's exactly the dismissive attitude I am talking about. Because people don't play the game like you, you think they don't deserve to have a game to play.
    Where did I say that?

    You just don't have a real point and are getting mad at me for not seeing it?

    Please give me an example of what you're actually talking about

  7. #187
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    And that's exactly the dismissive attitude I am talking about. Because people don't play the game like you, you think they don't deserve to have a game to play.
    I don’t think anyone is dismissing non-mythic raiding players. The reality is that the rest of the non-mythic raiding content doesn’t require mythic gear. Why do you need ilevel 226 gear for torghast or world quests or low mythics? You don’t and that’s not meant to be mean or dismissive or patronizing. I’m not a mythic raider, so I’m looking at it from the outside just like you are. Does it really make sense that every single content type has the same path to the same quality gear regardless of the difficulty of the content?

  8. #188
    Quote Originally Posted by Bennett View Post
    PVP and PVE are different worlds, espeically now they're taking measures to make pvp actually better in pvp than pve gear, and it's like pvp won't be that great in pve if you aren't a vers class. I don't care about PVP so me talking about it wouldn't be fair or informed

    - - - Updated - - -



    Where did I say that?

    You just don't have a real point and are getting mad at me for not seeing it?

    Please give me an example of what you're actually talking about
    I advocated for people who don't do M+ or raiding to have a game to play and your response was "Players that don't do M+ or raids don't need gear, so it's kind of a pointless argument".
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  9. #189
    The Patient
    Join Date
    Jan 2019
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    317
    Quote Originally Posted by qil View Post
    tip: change server.
    tip: just change the system as I suggested instead of punishing people for no reason

  10. #190
    Quote Originally Posted by Varaben View Post
    I don’t think anyone is dismissing non-mythic raiding players. The reality is that the rest of the non-mythic raiding content doesn’t require mythic gear. Why do you need ilevel 226 gear for torghast or world quests or low mythics? You don’t and that’s not meant to be mean or dismissive or patronizing. I’m not a mythic raider, so I’m looking at it from the outside just like you are. Does it really make sense that every single content type has the same path to the same quality gear regardless of the difficulty of the content?
    I never said that people who do lower end content should get high end gear.

    What I said is that the gear progression is so absurdly fast that even people who want to slowly, casually progress while playing low-end content aren't afforded that opportunity. There isn't a chance to just slowly gear up through heroic dungeons, crafting, reputations, etc.. You are blasted past that content so quickly that it isn't a viable way to play the game anymore.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  11. #191
    Quote Originally Posted by Arch-Angel of Riots View Post
    Not good at all. Mythic+ should give the same rewards as mythic raiding.

    If not it might be the main cause of me saying buh bye to my WoW subscription and finding another MMO.


    Just checked it out and the mythic+ chest will still drop loot that is = mythic raiding ilvl, so combined with the multiple slots you get, that is probably fine as it is.
    have fun playing another mmo. im sure there is something better out there.....um

    and m+ will never give the same ilvl as mythic raiding for one simple reason: there are no lockouts.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by aceperson View Post
    there should be pvp gear equivalent to mythic raiding as it's a different area of the game but otherwise yes, it is a good thing. wow was not designed around having unending grinds. unending grinds are only good when they are made incredibly competently. when it's not made well, you get intense burn out like we have seen for both legion AND bfa. people need a break from the game whether they want to take one or not.
    i agree. as long as people dont start in on the "no content. nothing to do." garbage. because its one or the other. you either have necessary content, or you dont.

    cant have things both ways.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by RoKPaNda View Post
    It's like Blizzard learns nothing, ever. It's actually kind of impressive. So for me as a Mythic raider what this means is that I'll login for my weekly raid, logout, and not touch WoW until the following week. How amazingly boring. I was already not very excited for SL and this just puts the interest meter somewhere around 0. They went from a fuckton of optional content that had the potential to be rewarding in Legion to "lol raid log, nothing else is worth it." in SL. Absolutely massive step backwards.

    They created an alternative to raiding in M+ and it was actually quite good and now they're crippling it.
    m+ is alternate content. but as long as you can spam it, iot will never have similar gear rewards.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by ReVnX View Post
    Back to raiding and (kinda)deterministic loot bois.

    I'm gonna like SL gearing
    yup. who doesnt like getting upgrades every other week people complain endlessly when they spend a month not getting a raid drop, what will they be like when there isnt endless loot drops elsewhere to make up for it....

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Toybox View Post
    The weekly Mythic+ cache still gives Mythic Raid iLvl loot, and thanks to the choice system, getting a (near) full loadout of really good item level pieces shouldn't be an issue at all.
    sure. will only take 3 months or so (with good luck that is)

  12. #192
    Quote Originally Posted by dcc626 View Post
    sure. will only take 3 months or so (with good luck that is)
    Which is probably less than the average mythic guild would take doing raids only.

  13. #193
    Quote Originally Posted by Bennett View Post
    You have the same options you had in BFA, arguably more so.

    There is no reason to raid heroic aside from trinkets (if they're even good for you) if you're doing 15s in BFA

    Now in SL there will be

    Raids should always give better gear than dungeons, even at the same difficulty - simply because raids require more time, coordination and actual players
    Are you joking? you must be joking. Yes i give credits to mythic raiding. Ive done that, it takes effort time, coordonation and actually get people for it. But NM/HC doesnt require none of that. It doesnt take that much time people dont need to be on voice wich means its little coordonation to be done and "actual" players who require so much less responsability then doin anything higher then a m15.

  14. #194
    All the main lore points occured in raids
    True
    All the best gear came from raids
    True
    there was raiding or pvp to progress - that's it
    True
    You're lying or completelt wrong I'm afraid, particularly in Wrath
    False
    Quote Originally Posted by Bennett View Post
    "Raiding was extremely niche, very few people did it at all"
    True

    Here is a thread about numbers of raiders in WotLK. The numbers were _much_ lower in BC, and lower still in Vanilla.

    https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...tical-analysis

    TLR because I know most people won't bother to look:
    There are no numbers for early ICC in the thread. Ulduar was incredibly popular and probably had higher numbers, but if you think it went from like, 40% in ulduar to 10% in ICC, you're kidding yourself, and ICC is considered one of the best raids of all time subjectively, certainly by me.

    ~10% killed arthas on Normal 10 or 25
    ~0.5% killed arthas on Heroic 10 or 25
    ~8% of people killed Shannox (first firelands boss) on normal
    ~3% of people killed shannox on heroic
    ~2.5% of people killed ragnaros on normal
    ~0.05% or so (less?) killed rag on heroic

    Note that these numbers are still from when there were 10million + users playing the game.

    Raiding _has never been_ popular in WoW, despite how many claim it is the cornerstone of the game. It's not. It has never been. It got brute forced into that position with LFR, which many raiders barely count as raiding anyway, and then with splitting into 4 difficulties, of which the first 2 can be completed nearly by a group of 3 year olds. There were blue quotes that I can no longer find these days around the time they talked about why LFR was made that said that raid participation in Vanilla and BC was literally under 1%, and they couldn't justify making the content for such a small number of players.

    Let's stop pretending raiding is something it isn't, and hasn't ever been. Raiding is what Blizzard WISHES was the cornerstone of the game, not what the players want to be the cornerstone of the game. I started raiding in Karazhan and all through wrath and mop, and I loved it. But even then, it wasn't anything near what its reputation pretended it was.
    Last edited by Delekii; 2020-09-17 at 01:08 PM.

  15. #195
    Quote Originally Posted by Nuciek View Post
    And everyone is crying about 3 ilvl compared to heroic raid gear but they fail to see that you only need +14 to get mythic raid level chest instead of +15 in BFA.
    But they want the gear from the activity not the chest. But once again just shows people just want to bitch for the sake of bitching.

  16. #196
    Quote Originally Posted by Arch-Angel of Riots View Post
    Not good at all. Mythic+ should give the same rewards as mythic raiding.

    If not it might be the main cause of me saying buh bye to my WoW subscription and finding another MMO.


    Just checked it out and the mythic+ chest will still drop loot that is = mythic raiding ilvl, so combined with the multiple slots you get, that is probably fine as it is.
    So by your casual logic, you're saying a dng that takes 15-20 minutes with 5 people that you can do non stop everyday all day to target specific pieces of loot for specific gear slots, should be on par ilvl wise with gear that drops off a boss you wipe on for weeks/months that is split between 25 people that you can only do once a week?





























    k

  17. #197
    Quote Originally Posted by Bennett View Post
    PVP and PVE are different worlds, espeically now they're taking measures to make pvp actually better in pvp than pve gear, and it's like pvp won't be that great in pve if you aren't a vers class. I don't care about PVP so me talking about it wouldn't be fair or informed
    You're totally missing the point here. The point is they're trying to shove content down people's throat and that never ends well for the game at the end of the day. For many classes Conflict and Strife was the BiS essence and it required a minimum 1.4ish k rating to acquire and a month or so of capping conquest. That stirred up a shitstorm from the PvE community and it literally took minimum effort. People hate doing what they don't like, period.

    You might think dungeons are easier to clear but that's just your opinion, it isn't as objective as you might think it is. Mythic raiding can be hard the same way high keystones can be and arenas past 2.4k are even harder than both. Adjust the loot quality according to the difficulty of the content they drop off. It's not that hard really. Figure out a fair system. Rendering one type of content useless is not the solution.

    Repeatability of M+ and lack of scaling gear with higher keystones is the issue here and that is the problem they should focus on solving. I like pushing keys. Don't make me feel like a second class citizen by giving me loot that's inferior to hc, it's rather simple. If you wish to get me back to raiding give me the incentive to farm at least hc raids by adding cool trinkets or bringing back tier sets or a similar system other than azerite.

  18. #198
    Mechagnome Malania's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Newcastle, UK
    Posts
    730
    Explain what you mean by not relevant. Content is as relevant to you as what you want out of it. If you're doing mythic+ dungeon content to get the best gear you were doing the wrong thing in the first place. If you were doing Mythic+ with the objective to set reputable times you basically had to Mythic raid anyway.

    The changes have made no difference to this. You still get mythic gear.

  19. #199
    Quote Originally Posted by Gorsameth View Post
    Because M+ existing with equal/better rewards destroyed the Heroic raiding scene?
    Why would 5 players find another 5-25 people to play with when they can simply grind dungeons for equal/better rewards?
    im sure HC only raiders "simply" grind +20 on daily basis...

    what exactly is wrong with system as it is now? last hc bosses give better gear than M+15, so M+ is competitive way of gearing, but raiding, be it heroic or mythic, STILL gives best gear... not to mention trinkets and some azerite from hc is STILL better even if you are decked in full M+15 weekly chest gear...

    after the change, if you raid heroic you dont need to bother doing more than one M+, as apart from weekly chest everything from it will be useless vendor trash...

    so to sumarise: right now m+ competitive gear, raids still provide best gear, so both are usefull
    after change, M+ BARELY above normal raid, raids provide even better gear, so M+ becomes kind of useless, and will be just a chore to do once a week

  20. #200
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    M+ either needs to be lower ilvl than heroic or it needs to have a weekly cap. Demanding infinite heroic level loot is unreasonable and bad design.
    It should be locked behind higher difficulty. I am ok with weekly chest cap being unlocked at lvl15 but i.e. but they could still give better loot on higher levels.
    I would say cap should be somewhere around 20 and work like Visions loot - first time you get loot on 20 you get something in between HC and mythic lets call it 220. If you do more 20s or 18/19 you would get 215, after that you loot 210 would be HC level at 17/16 and finally it's hard cap would be at +15 205ilvl. If you can only reach level 18 only one peace will be dropped, so loot is rare and it won't even be the best as the max level is at 20 so skill will reward that extra good piece of loot.
    Vision loot concept was really good for skilled players until it got passively nerfed by cloak level. If you don't introduce such nerfs in m+ besides what gear gives you will effectively have that power level locked behind skill. Ofc raiders would say now I have to grind +20s and hope that one piece that drops is for me, but that would be sub mythic level and also same argument comes to m+ players when they are locked out of BiS gear in other content.
    Hopefully they introduce tiers in pvp, raiding and m+ so players don't have to do content which they don't want to do so they don't lose 30% of character power because they don't pvp/raid

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by dipzz View Post
    So by your casual logic, you're saying a dng that takes 15-20 minutes with 5 people that you can do non stop everyday all day to target specific pieces of loot for specific gear slots, should be on par ilvl wise with gear that drops off a boss you wipe on for weeks/months that is split between 25 people that you can only do once a week?
    k
    mythic is 20 ppl btw.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •