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  1. #201
    Merely a Setback Queen of Hamsters's Avatar
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    People calling SL "raid or die" clearly have no clue what that actually means.
    .
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  2. #202
    Quote Originally Posted by erifwodahs View Post
    I
    Hopefully they introduce tiers in pvp, raiding and m+ so players don't have to do content which they don't want to do so they don't lose 30% of character power because they don't pvp/raid
    No idea what you are talking about
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
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  3. #203
    Quote Originally Posted by SanitariumZ View Post
    Mythic raiding is the most difficult content in the game? Based on what? Skill? That only applies to WF raiders. By the time the average Joe hits X boss further down the tier, said boss will have been clubbed to death with the nerfbat. Not to mention the fact that certain mechanics that might have been challenging early on will be irrelevant due to the fact that everyone and their mother outgears the shit out of the encounter. Hearing people that are still 4/12 bosses 5 months into the patch or barely even make it to Cutting Edge tell me that M+ is trivial content makes me laugh out loud. Same people struggle to make it to keystone master let alone push past +20.

    Is it based on time commitment? Should we give out best rewards to the people grinding for shit like the Insane achievement? That takes time.

    Is it based on : "But I have to find 19 other people and it's hard to organize a guild for mythic raiding"? Exactly. That's why Classic is the pinnacle of raiding. You gotta organize 40 people instead of 20. C'thun is way harder than Mythic N'zoth.
    Skill only applies to WF raiders? like wdym, average joe dont even raid heroic, average joe does not raid at all
    There are WAY MORE "average Joe" with 15 timed than CE wtf.
    Are you saying that the current tier raiding gets easier as time passes? thats what character progression is all about.
    +15 are trivial to mythic raiders, yes, its even trivial for a lot of heroic raiders
    Insane tittle IS LITERALLY THE REWARD for the time commitment of the achievement, as well as other time sinks stuff that gives its own reward.

    Organize 40 people? lol are you comparing Classic organization with mythic organization?

    Pushing past 15 has no gear progression since day 1 so people push further for fun and giggles

    Mythic is the biggest COMBINATION of effort + time in PVE GEAR progression

    If blizzard pushes gear progression past 15, and EQUALIZES IT to raiding prog then it would be good, but thats not the case here, it would then overflow the weekly chest ilvl or cap it past 15 so that would make no difference.

    The topic is that 15 does not reward heroic ilvl anymore in end of dungeon chest so it can be farmed unlimited times

  4. #204
    Good, you should only be able to earn the best loot in the game by doing the hardest content in the game. Back to how the game was supposed to be. and I have not done a Hard mode raid since Cata.

  5. #205
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    Quote Originally Posted by Otimus View Post
    I just hope there's some sort of progression for the player that doesn't want to do manually grouped content that doesn't immediately dry up in a week. So long as I can have my path I can whittle away at and feel like I'm making progress toward, I'm happy. That's why I loved MoP so much, aside from the lack of dungeons being useful (but you still felt like they were worth doing to help toward badges and stuff). Since after that, it felt like that kind of player had almost nothing any fun to do unless you only played 1 hour a week or something.

    Give me that, and I don't give a fuck if Mythic raiders have like 5,000 ilvls over me.

    TBH, if it continues the trend of what it has been doing, I may just sit this one out until it's over, and just do all the content in a couple of months before the next expansion is out. I really miss MoP
    I guess I just don't get the solo mentality. You are playing a Multi Player Game but don't really want to run with people, except when you absolutely have to. I mean I understand part of it because there are times I just wanna do my own thing, but the core part of the game is built around grouping. Im guessing you just haven't had good luck with guilds in general. Ive been lucky and found my way in to a boatload of good guilds over the past 15 yrs. Still friends with a lot of them. I cant imagine playing WoW without a solid group of friends, it would be boring as fuck.
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  6. #206
    Legendary! TEHPALLYTANK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by facefist View Post
    I can't believe that you, as a raider, threw out this argument. Do you enjoy raiding? If yes, then would you be fine with them reducing raid loot to let's say 1/5 of what you currently get? Obviously you shouldn't complain about having to do more of raiding if you enjoy it - maybe even make it so that you can get only 1 item for a full clear, but you can clear it twice a week. More raiding because of less loot = more fun for you!

    Because by your logic we might as well drop the loot from raiding to 1 piece per boss for the whole group. If you don't enjoy raiding, but just want to get easy loot, then you shouldn't have a problem with m+ yielding easy loot for yourself as well.

    No, the point is that raiders and m+ players probably both do it because they 1) enjoy it, but also because 2) they get rewarded. If the reward feels off compared to the difficulty and time commitment, then the content isn't that fun anymore. I doubt you would raid if it yielded no rewards, no matter how fun it is. If rewards are meaningless for you, then I don't know why you have a problem with high m+ rewards.

    And by the way, I am a mythic raider and completely fine with this change as it allows me to raid log - no need to even do the +15 every week if I don't have time.
    Raids did drop less loot relative to M+, that was part of my point. The issue at hand is that the amount of rewards for M+ were excessive. The rewards are being scaled back some to account for the fact that M+ only requires 5 players, the dungeons remain static throughout the entire expansion, and there are no loot lockouts for M+. The affixes changing do introduce some minor differences for trash packs, but those mechanics are fairly obvious and easy to learn.


    There isn't a large time commitment or logistical challenge for M+, so why should it be more rewarding than raiding?
    Last edited by TEHPALLYTANK; 2020-09-17 at 03:01 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbamboozal View Post
    Intelligence is like four wheel drive, it's not going to make you unstoppable, it just sort of tends to get you stuck in more remote places.
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  7. #207
    Quote Originally Posted by SanitariumZ View Post
    C'thun is way harder than Mythic N'zoth.
    Well, that is how you know when someones opinion matters as much as a toddles opinion on space program and toddler probably has more insight on spacecrafts than you have on raiding.

  8. #208
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    I advocated for people who don't do M+ or raiding to have a game to play and your response was "Players that don't do M+ or raids don't need gear, so it's kind of a pointless argument".
    Jumping in late to this convo here but could you explain to me what you mean by "have a game to play"?
    ..and so he left, with terrible power in shaking hands.

  9. #209
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    I advocated for people who don't do M+ or raiding to have a game to play and your response was "Players that don't do M+ or raids don't need gear, so it's kind of a pointless argument".
    Which is 100% true

    If you aren't doing dungeons or raids, then the only content you can be doing is world content, which gives you more than enough rewards to be able to clear that world content so you don't need gear from dungeons/raids.

    I never said people who don't do dungeons or raids can't/shouldn't play, because I do not believe that - don't be a liar.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Baconeggcheese View Post
    Jumping in late to this convo here but could you explain to me what you mean by "have a game to play"?
    Don't worry, I don't get it either

  10. #210
    Quote Originally Posted by TEHPALLYTANK View Post
    Raids did drop less loot relative to M+, that was part of my point. The issue at hand is that the amount of rewards for M+ were excessive. The rewards are being scaled back some to account for the fact that M+ only requires 5 players, the dungeons remain static throughout the entire expansion, and there are no loot lockouts for M+. The affixes changing do introduce some minor differences for trash packs, but those mechanics are fairly obvious and easy to learn.


    There isn't a large time commitment or logistical challenge for M+, so why should it be more rewarding than raiding?
    I agree that the rewards were excessive, but I still think this is not the right way to fix it. Just fix the difficulty/time commitment relative to the reward so that it matches mythic raiding. In this case there obviously needs to be a loot lockout of some sort so you cant gear faster with m+ than with raids.

    For example, doing a +15 during the first week is shit loads harder than clearing full hc raid, not to mention the first bosses of hc. So why should hc raid give better rewards than a +15 key?

    Which leads to my point which is that they went over the top with this. +15 reward should be higher than hc loot for the first bosses but still significantly lower than mythic raid. Or then the m+ loot should scale all the way to +25 or smth with a loot lockout.
    Last edited by facefist; 2020-09-17 at 03:21 PM.

  11. #211
    Quote Originally Posted by Nizah View Post
    Are you joking? you must be joking. Yes i give credits to mythic raiding. Ive done that, it takes effort time, coordonation and actually get people for it. But NM/HC doesnt require none of that. It doesnt take that much time people dont need to be on voice wich means its little coordonation to be done and "actual" players who require so much less responsability then doin anything higher then a m15.
    I didn't say heroic is hard, but it is harder than a +15 for the obvious reason it requires more people and is balanced around that

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Delekii View Post
    True

    True

    True

    False

    True

    Here is a thread about numbers of raiders in WotLK. The numbers were _much_ lower in BC, and lower still in Vanilla.

    https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...tical-analysis

    TLR because I know most people won't bother to look:
    There are no numbers for early ICC in the thread. Ulduar was incredibly popular and probably had higher numbers, but if you think it went from like, 40% in ulduar to 10% in ICC, you're kidding yourself, and ICC is considered one of the best raids of all time subjectively, certainly by me.

    ~10% killed arthas on Normal 10 or 25
    ~0.5% killed arthas on Heroic 10 or 25
    ~8% of people killed Shannox (first firelands boss) on normal
    ~3% of people killed shannox on heroic
    ~2.5% of people killed ragnaros on normal
    ~0.05% or so (less?) killed rag on heroic

    Note that these numbers are still from when there were 10million + users playing the game.

    Raiding _has never been_ popular in WoW, despite how many claim it is the cornerstone of the game. It's not. It has never been. It got brute forced into that position with LFR, which many raiders barely count as raiding anyway, and then with splitting into 4 difficulties, of which the first 2 can be completed nearly by a group of 3 year olds. There were blue quotes that I can no longer find these days around the time they talked about why LFR was made that said that raid participation in Vanilla and BC was literally under 1%, and they couldn't justify making the content for such a small number of players.

    Let's stop pretending raiding is something it isn't, and hasn't ever been. Raiding is what Blizzard WISHES was the cornerstone of the game, not what the players want to be the cornerstone of the game. I started raiding in Karazhan and all through wrath and mop, and I loved it. But even then, it wasn't anything near what its reputation pretended it was.
    You realise more people raid than actually kill bosses right?

    Besides, I never said the majority of players raid - my point is simply to say "very few people raided" is objectively untrue

    You also conviently leave out the part where the data from said thread essentially amounts to estimates at best

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by SanitariumZ View Post
    You're totally missing the point here. The point is they're trying to shove content down people's throat and that never ends well for the game at the end of the day. For many classes Conflict and Strife was the BiS essence and it required a minimum 1.4ish k rating to acquire and a month or so of capping conquest. That stirred up a shitstorm from the PvE community and it literally took minimum effort. People hate doing what they don't like, period.

    You might think dungeons are easier to clear but that's just your opinion, it isn't as objective as you might think it is. Mythic raiding can be hard the same way high keystones can be and arenas past 2.4k are even harder than both. Adjust the loot quality according to the difficulty of the content they drop off. It's not that hard really. Figure out a fair system. Rendering one type of content useless is not the solution.

    Repeatability of M+ and lack of scaling gear with higher keystones is the issue here and that is the problem they should focus on solving. I like pushing keys. Don't make me feel like a second class citizen by giving me loot that's inferior to hc, it's rather simple. If you wish to get me back to raiding give me the incentive to farm at least hc raids by adding cool trinkets or bringing back tier sets or a similar system other than azerite.
    Boy have I got news for you, cool trinkets never left and we're getting tier sets back

  12. #212
    Legendary! TEHPALLYTANK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by facefist View Post
    I agree that the rewards were excessive, but I still think this is not the right way to fix it. Just fix the difficulty/time commitment relative to the reward so that it matches mythic raiding.

    For example, doing a +15 during the first week is shit loads harder than clearing full hc raid, not to mention the first bosses of hc. So why should hc raid give better rewards than a +15 key?
    M+ provides loot that is better than heroic raid loot via the weekly chest. M+ is going to provide loot equal to Mythic raid loot (for that matter, you get gear equal to Mythic raid gear from doing +14, not +15).
    https://www.reddit.com/r/Competitive...n_shadowlands/

    It does give 3 ilvls lower than most heroic raid gear for the loot drop at the end of the dungeon, but once again, there isn't a weekly loot lockout on the M+ dungeons themselves. You can spam M+ to get slightly lower ilvl gear than is provided by heroic raids, but getting it in every slot still allows you to out-gear heroic raids by actually filling all of your slots with 210 gear in the first week. Someone who fully clears heroic is still going to have a lower average ilvl than someone who is gearing by running +15 keys, even with the nerfs to M+ rewards.

    The end result is that M+ won't be massively more efficient as a gearing route than running heroic raids, it'll require a bit more time but still remain more rewarding in the short-term than heroic raiding (actually it looks like it will be more rewarding than heroic raiding in the long-term too, since the weekly chest will be spitting out 3 items at 226 ilvl if you're clearing ten M+14s per week).
    Last edited by TEHPALLYTANK; 2020-09-17 at 03:37 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbamboozal View Post
    Intelligence is like four wheel drive, it's not going to make you unstoppable, it just sort of tends to get you stuck in more remote places.
    Quote Originally Posted by MerinPally View Post
    If you want to be disgusted, next time you kiss someone remember you've got your mouth on the end of a tube which has shit at the other end, held back by a couple of valves.

  13. #213
    Quote Originally Posted by Bennett View Post
    Which is 100% true

    If you aren't doing dungeons or raids, then the only content you can be doing is world content, which gives you more than enough rewards to be able to clear that world content so you don't need gear from dungeons/raids.

    I never said people who don't do dungeons or raids can't/shouldn't play, because I do not believe that - don't be a liar.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Don't worry, I don't get it either
    Because you are being intentionally obtuse and addressing a strawman instead of anything I am actually saying.

    I'm literally making an argument about gearing being too fast and your response is "But you get plenty of gear".
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  14. #214
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    Because you are being intentionally obtuse and addressing a strawman instead of anything I am actually saying.

    I'm literally making an argument about gearing being too fast and your response is "But you get plenty of gear".
    I've asked you for examples of this

    How is gearing too fast? How is that a bad thing?

  15. #215
    Quote Originally Posted by Baconeggcheese View Post
    Jumping in late to this convo here but could you explain to me what you mean by "have a game to play"?
    If players who don't raid or do M+ try to play wow right now, the game overgears them for all content so insanely quickly that the game is over for them in a couple of weeks at most. In older expansions, a player could spend months gearing through heroic dungeons, reputations, crafting, etc.. Now, all of those sources of gear are blown away in an incredibly short amount of time. Players are fast-tracked to a point where the only advancement is through raiding and M+.

    I have friends that played almost daily through all of Wrath, barely ever raided, but rarely "finished" acquiring upgrades through the rest of the content in the game. That playstyle is dead. Once you hit max level, the game pummels you over the head with gear so fast that you are put in a position where the only upgrades are M+ and raids in a matter of weeks at most.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Bennett View Post
    I've asked you for examples of this

    How is gearing too fast? How is that a bad thing?
    See above.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  16. #216
    Quote Originally Posted by erifwodahs View Post
    Well, that is how you know when someones opinion matters as much as a toddles opinion on space program and toddler probably has more insight on spacecrafts than you have on raiding.
    Taking shit out of context since Jun 2019 I guess? Should I add a *spoiler alert* /sarcasm at the beginning of the sentence to help you understand?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by confety View Post

    Organize 40 people? lol are you comparing Classic organization with mythic organization?
    Same thing here. The fact that you fail to detect sarcasm out of a simple sentence makes me think I should end the argument here...

    Quote Originally Posted by confety View Post

    Skill only applies to WF raiders? like wdym, average joe dont even raid heroic, average joe does not raid at all
    There are WAY MORE "average Joe" with 15 timed than CE wtf.
    Are you saying that the current tier raiding gets easier as time passes? thats what character progression is all about.
    Average Joe that isn't good enough for heroic, is not good enough for +15s timed either. He won't be able to time 15s for some time in fact or at all. What is your experience in M+ really? Character progression doesn't apply just to the raiding environment, it affects how well you perform in dungeons as well. Doing +15s in the first week is not as easy as doing it with 30 extra average ilvl.

    If said Average Joe does have a 15 timed he prolly bought it off trade or 4 of his more knowledgeable/skilled friends decided to carry him and that will be obvious the minute he sets foot in a pug keystone. It's easier to find 4 friends that are willing to carry you than 19, I'll give you that. But then again if the number of players defines how hard content is then my point about Classic raiding comes into play. 40 man raiding is harder because finding 19 people is easier than finding 39. It's not that simple though is it? Buying a 15 timed is about 10x cheaper than buying a mythic nyalotha carry. And before you jump into conclusions, it's the mount at the end of the raid that skyrokets the price.

    Keystone Master difficulty is about the same level as clearing HC, and +20s are about the same level as clearing Mythic. That is exactly why the only realistic solution should be scaling rewards past 15. Current tier was not a good example since corruptions distorted our perception of gear upgrades and character progression.

    Quote Originally Posted by confety View Post
    +15 are trivial to mythic raiders, yes, its even trivial for a lot of heroic raiders
    Well is someone that -generally speaking- kills 5-6 bosses or barely makes it to CE every tier after all the nerfs and gear boosts considered a Mythic raider? The fact that you think +15 are trivial to them early on makes me think you don't have that much experience out of doing M+ at all...
    Last edited by SanitariumZ; 2020-09-17 at 03:42 PM.

  17. #217
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    If players who don't raid or do M+ try to play wow right now, the game overgears them for all content so insanely quickly that the game is over for them in a couple of weeks at most. In older expansions, a player could spend months gearing through heroic dungeons, reputations, crafting, etc.. Now, all of those sources of gear are blown away in an incredibly short amount of time. Players are fast-tracked to a point where the only advancement is through raiding and M+.

    I have friends that played almost daily through all of Wrath, barely ever raided, but rarely "finished" acquiring upgrades through the rest of the content in the game. That playstyle is dead. Once you hit max level, the game pummels you over the head with gear so fast that you are put in a position where the only upgrades are M+ and raids in a matter of weeks at most.

    - - - Updated - - -



    See above.
    Yeah sorry, I fail to see that as a problem and disagree with you anyway.

    Take 8.3 - if a player never raids or does mythic +, they will never go above 445 item level aside from a few crafting slots which are still something you can work towards, and would be far better than what you could find anywhere else. Even that would take WEEKS of emissary farming

    I simply don't see this as a problem, sorry.

  18. #218
    Quote Originally Posted by Accendor View Post
    honest question, please let's discuss this without hate.

    from what i have heard and seen on the beta only renown (~1h/week) and Torghast (also ~1h per week) offer Character progression.

    In addition to that we just learned that m+ gear will be before heroic raid gear.

    this means that if you raid mythic, your are done with all your weekly stuff in 2-3h (depending if you choose to do 1 m+ for the cache).

    ofc you could also do more m+ for more item selection, but this is very, very inefficient. still posdible tho.

    i understand many people like this, because they are free to do other things ingame now. my personal problem here is, that I am actually only really interested in things that offer Character progression and those are now heavily timegated.

    do i miss something? is there really nothing to do at max level besides the things I listed? would be a shame if this becomes a raidlogging expansion.
    Mythic raiding gear was for the most part better in bfa aswell. If you are a mythic raider(one of the things that take the most dedication in wow) why wouldnt your gear come primarily from mythic raids?
    I fail to see the problem here

  19. #219
    Quote Originally Posted by Bennett View Post
    Yeah sorry, I fail to see that as a problem and disagree with you anyway.

    Take 8.3 - if a player never raids or does mythic +, they will never go above 445 item level and even that would take WEEKS of emissary farming

    I simply don't see this as a problem, sorry.
    If you think an entire playstyle being eradicated from the game isn't a problem, even though allowing that playstyle to exist really doesn't have any impact on you, I don't know what to tell you.

    "lol i dont care, fuck em" isn't an argument.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  20. #220
    Quote Originally Posted by Delekii View Post
    Here is a thread about numbers of raiders in WotLK. The numbers were _much_ lower in BC, and lower still in Vanilla.

    https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...tical-analysis

    TLR because I know most people won't bother to look:
    There are no numbers for early ICC in the thread. Ulduar was incredibly popular and probably had higher numbers, but if you think it went from like, 40% in ulduar to 10% in ICC, you're kidding yourself, and ICC is considered one of the best raids of all time subjectively, certainly by me.

    ~10% killed arthas on Normal 10 or 25
    ~0.5% killed arthas on Heroic 10 or 25
    ~8% of people killed Shannox (first firelands boss) on normal
    ~3% of people killed shannox on heroic
    ~2.5% of people killed ragnaros on normal
    ~0.05% or so (less?) killed rag on heroic

    Note that these numbers are still from when there were 10million + users playing the game.

    Raiding _has never been_ popular in WoW, despite how many claim it is the cornerstone of the game. It's not. It has never been. It got brute forced into that position with LFR, which many raiders barely count as raiding anyway, and then with splitting into 4 difficulties, of which the first 2 can be completed nearly by a group of 3 year olds. There were blue quotes that I can no longer find these days around the time they talked about why LFR was made that said that raid participation in Vanilla and BC was literally under 1%, and they couldn't justify making the content for such a small number of players.

    Let's stop pretending raiding is something it isn't, and hasn't ever been. Raiding is what Blizzard WISHES was the cornerstone of the game, not what the players want to be the cornerstone of the game. I started raiding in Karazhan and all through wrath and mop, and I loved it. But even then, it wasn't anything near what its reputation pretended it was.
    Don't have the full context of your convo but just wanted to talk about this post here. There's a lot of issues with all the assumptions being made in the post you linked and what you've said (which even the guy making the post admits the numbers aren't accurate and he's just taking a best guess with his bias involved). For instance, IIRC the sub #'s they were reporting were concurrent active subs which is only going to be a fraction of the players who play the game since by far the majority of players are going to be in turn over whereas people tend to look at these numbers as if its the same static X people playing the game at any given time.

    That's why you see F2P games like say... PoE only having upwards of 1% of the player base having ever killed their end boss. Because a shit ton of players pick up the game and drop it at arbitrary points long before getting there even if they had every intention of going after him.

    That post is also assuming that guilds are using the minimum number of players required to do any given activity. A 10 man guild doesn't just have 10 players, they usually have a bench, they also have constant turnover like any other part of the game which can vary wildly from guild to guild, as well as socials and retired raiders who maintain a sub just to hang out with that community, etc etc. A guild is always far more than the absolute minimum amount of people required to do an activity.

    Going back to bigger picture it becomes difficult to try and parse out what % of players who are actually sticking with the game for however long are doing what content vs the total number of players. Or how many players are doing certain content because either they have to or blizzard has pushed players into said content via rewards that that player would otherwise not do without that incentive. Or even how many players picked up the game and spent money on the box and a sub just to do a specific activity but then dropped the game before they got there having only done certain activities along the way that you would count against that activity.

    All that is to say its extremely difficult to gauge how popular any given activity is in the game by making assumptions based on what limited information we have a lot of which is from 3rd party sources. I imagine blizzard has much better information than we do in that regard, and allocates resources accordingly. And even then they're making assumptions because they don't know exactly what the player is thinking when they do participate in a thing. Active participation =/= people enjoying said thing.
    Last edited by Baconeggcheese; 2020-09-17 at 03:57 PM.
    ..and so he left, with terrible power in shaking hands.

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