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  1. #221
    Quote Originally Posted by Baconeggcheese View Post
    Don't have the full context of your convo but just wanted to talk about this post here. There's a lot of issues with all the assumptions being made in the post you linked and what you've said (which even the guy making the post admits the numbers aren't accurate and he's just taking a best guess with his bias involved). For instance, IIRC the sub #'s they were reporting were concurrent active subs which is only going to be a fraction of the players who play the game since by far the majority of players are going to be in turn over whereas people tend to look at these numbers as if its the same static X people playing the game at any given time.

    That's why you see F2P games like say... PoE only having upwards of 1% of the player base having ever killed their end boss. Because a shit ton of players pick up the game and drop it at arbitrary points long before getting there.

    That post is also assuming that guilds are using the minimum number of players required to do any given activity. A 10 man guild doesn't just have 10 players, they usually have a bench, they also have constant turnover like any other part of the game, as well as socials and retired raiders who maintain a sub just to hang out with that community, etc etc. A guild is always far more than the absolute minimum amount of people required to do an activity.

    Going back to bigger picture it becomes difficult to try and parse out what % of players who are actually sticking with the game for however long are doing what content vs the total number of players. Or how many players are doing certain content because either they have to or blizzard has pushed players into said content via rewards that that player would otherwise not do without that incentive. Or even how many players picked up the game and spent money on the box and a sub just to do a specific activity but then dropped the game before they got there having only done certain activities along the way that you would count against that activity.

    All that is to say its extremely difficult to gauge how popular any given activity is in the game by making assumptions based on what limited information we have a lot of which is from 3rd party sources. I imagine blizzard has much better information than we do in that regard, and allocates resources accordingly.
    Back during WOD and MoP it was possible to pull this information by analyzing achievements, and the numbers were quite low, similar to what was being stated.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  2. #222
    Quote Originally Posted by NatePsy View Post
    And you really think in this day and age, that they would survive on that sort of mentality? They evolve their systems for a reason, demographic shifts over time and it never stays the same. Not everybody wants to raid and log off bro, nor do we have the time to be stuck on a schedule as if it was a second job.

    BC and Wrath were successful, in an era that is not the same as today's era of MMO players. What worked 10 years ago, won't be guaranteed to work today.
    Which is why LFR was added in the final patch of Cataclysm with the Dragon Soul. So raiding became more accessible.

  3. #223
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    If you think an entire playstyle being eradicated from the game isn't a problem, even though allowing that playstyle to exist really doesn't have any impact on you, I don't know what to tell you.

    "lol i dont care, fuck em" isn't an argument.
    No I just don't agree it's being destroyed, I think you're being deliberately dishonest about gear acquisition, if you don't do instanced content - it would take weeks if not months to get fully "world" geared or whatever you might call it

    Shadowlands would increase that even more, due to the fact we have less world quests and less give gear rewards.

    Finally, you'll be hard pressed to find people who agree that completely gimping how you get gear is more fun.

  4. #224
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    If players who don't raid or do M+ try to play wow right now, the game overgears them for all content so insanely quickly that the game is over for them in a couple of weeks at most. In older expansions, a player could spend months gearing through heroic dungeons, reputations, crafting, etc.. Now, all of those sources of gear are blown away in an incredibly short amount of time. Players are fast-tracked to a point where the only advancement is through raiding and M+.

    I have friends that played almost daily through all of Wrath, barely ever raided, but rarely "finished" acquiring upgrades through the rest of the content in the game. That playstyle is dead. Once you hit max level, the game pummels you over the head with gear so fast that you are put in a position where the only upgrades are M+ and raids in a matter of weeks at most.
    Ah yes that's true and I agree its a problem. What do you believe is the solution to that problem?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    Back during WOD and MoP it was possible to pull this information by analyzing achievements, and the numbers were quite low, similar to what was being stated.
    You still run into all the issues I mentioned in my post when doing that.
    ..and so he left, with terrible power in shaking hands.

  5. #225
    They just need to fucking bring master looter back, it in no way effects anyone in any way having it come back.
    Super Mario Maker 2: Maker ID 8B7-CTF-NMG

    - Sire Denathrius confirmed to have created the Dreadlords.

  6. #226
    Quote Originally Posted by Bennett View Post
    No I just don't agree it's being destroyed, I think you're being deliberately dishonest about gear acquisition, if you don't do instanced content - it would take weeks if not months to get fully "world" geared or whatever you might call it

    Shadowlands would increase that even more, due to the fact we have less world quests and less give gear rewards.

    Finally, you'll be hard pressed to find people who agree that completely gimping how you get gear is more fun.
    Useful gear from reps is basically a thing of the past, same for useful gear from crafting. Right now you hit max level and are quickly piled with gear, like ungodly amounts of gear, to the point where within a couple of weeks you have nothing to get except for a couple of weekly quick activities that give you high ilvl gear. You've outgeared all dungeons except M+ insanely fast. Heroics don't matter. Even LFR is behind you very quickly.

    I'm not hard pressed to find people who agree with me. They all left the game as their playstyles became negated, and I still know them. You might find people currently playing the game who, like you, think "i dont care fuck em" is an argument, but people like you are why the game was ruined for them.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Baconeggcheese View Post
    Ah yes that's true and I agree its a problem. What do you believe is the solution to that problem?

    - - - Updated - - -



    You still run into all the issues I mentioned in my post when doing that.
    The solution is to significantly slow down pre-raid gearing and provide more long term paths to gearing for players in that zone. Players who don't wish to play in that zone can easily leave it by doing M+ and raids. This problem was solved before it was ever a problem. It was a created problem.

    The numbers we were able to pull back in the day were extremely reliable because in the data we could parse out active, inactive, etc.. We were also able to compare the number of people that killed any bosses to the number that killed all and do similar analyses that provided insight on this. There is no way to massage those numbers to make raiding look like it was ever a popular activity.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  7. #227
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    Useful gear from reps is basically a thing of the past, same for useful gear from crafting. Right now you hit max level and are quickly piled with gear, like ungodly amounts of gear, to the point where within a couple of weeks you have nothing to get except for a couple of weekly quick activities that give you high ilvl gear. You've outgeared all dungeons except M+ insanely fast. Heroics don't matter. Even LFR is behind you very quickly.

    I'm not hard pressed to find people who agree with me. They all left the game as their playstyles became negated, and I still know them. You might find people currently playing the game who, like you, think "i dont care fuck em" is an argument, but people like you are why the game was ruined for them.
    Clearly you didn't farm champions of azeroth at the start of the expansion because they had azerite gear better than anywhere else for a time, which is an example of what you're talking about. Crafting in BFA still offers helms, rings trinks etc that are still very much useable in 8.3 - particularly if you don't want to raid.

    As much as you repeat this "Right now you hit max level and are quickly piled with gear" - doesn't make it true, there is indeed catch up gear (which no one forces you to use), and like I've said - all the content you find outside of dungeons and raids will only get you to 445 - which firstly, will take you weeks to achieve a full set, and secondly - isn't outgearing anything apart from LFR.

    I know for a fact you're lying because you're ascribing this "I don't care about players who aren't me" narrative to me when in reality, I just think your argument is wrong and easily proven to be false. Stop lying, please.

  8. #228
    Quote Originally Posted by confety View Post
    Mythic is the biggest COMBINATION of effort + time in PVE GEAR progression
    nobody denies that, thats why it alwyas did, currently does and will in future reward best loot...
    heroic on the other hand, is way easier, and is definitely not harder than +15 or higher keys, so why on earth it should reward better loot?

  9. #229
    Quote Originally Posted by SanitariumZ View Post
    Keystone Master difficulty is about the same level as clearing HC, and +20s are about the same level as clearing Mythic. That is exactly why the only realistic solution should be scaling rewards past 15. Current tier was not a good example since corruptions distorted our perception of gear upgrades and character progression.
    Other than the current season, a +15 was significantly harder than a heroic raid (in S1-S3 <1% achieved keystone master). We only recently hit a point with corruption and gear scaling that a +15 became "easy". This is further exacerbated by people watching MDI/WF players doing +13-17 on the BETA and inferring it being quickly achievable by the average player. The whole system trickles down and I don think people understand that. Even if we assume all mythic raiders can easily do a +15, any time they spend doing so gives them sub-heroic raid gear. Then a heroic raider does a 10 or 11 and gets sub-normal raid gear. How are people going to find doing content that offers no rewards for their ability fun?

    And this doesn't even cover the M+ only players who will be nowhere near being able to clear the content they would otherwise on a competitive ladder. Even on live the survivability/damage/healing between full 465 vs 475 is huge. Making this worse only puts "the wall" that much lower for those who cant full-clear mythic - which puts an artificial boundary on progress and feels bad. When WF/TF/corruption were a thing, this would have been fine due to the repeatability of M+ and fishing for RNG upgrades but putting high level M+ this much below other players on competitive content is unacceptable.

  10. #230
    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    yep, thats why mythic raids give best rewards, even now

    why though HC raid should give better gear than +15? when it comes to difficulty its about the same as +15, but it gives better gear now... why?
    and for +20 or higher its outright stupid...
    Very simple. For 2 reasons:
    1.) You cannot run the heroic raid unlimited amount of times
    2.) The heroic raid will not guarantee you a mythic raid ilvl item at the end of the week.

  11. #231
    Quote Originally Posted by Bennett View Post
    Clearly you didn't farm champions of azeroth at the start of the expansion because they had azerite gear better than anywhere else for a time, which is an example of what you're talking about. Crafting in BFA still offers helms, rings trinks etc that are still very much useable in 8.3 - particularly if you don't want to raid.

    As much as you repeat this "Right now you hit max level and are quickly piled with gear" - doesn't make it true, there is indeed catch up gear (which no one forces you to use), and like I've said - all the content you find outside of dungeons and raids will only get you to 445 - which firstly, will take you weeks to achieve a full set, and secondly - isn't outgearing anything apart from LFR.

    I know for a fact you're lying because you're ascribing this "I don't care about players who aren't me" narrative to me when in reality, I just think your argument is wrong and easily proven to be false. Stop lying, please.
    "Weeks" is not long enough, it should take MONTHS, and what you are counting into that time is the time period after you are so geared up that upgrades are only available from a small number of weekly things that can be completed in an hour.

    By the time you get the reps up, you've already received equivalent or better gear elsewhere in almost any case. Same for crafting. Are there exceptions, like CoA at the beginning of the expansions? Sure, but the existence of some small exceptions that primarily only exist before any patches doesn't negate my argument.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  12. #232
    Quote Originally Posted by SanitariumZ View Post

    If said Average Joe does have a 15 timed he prolly bought it off trade or 4 of his more knowledgeable/skilled friends decided to carry him and that will be obvious the minute he sets foot in a pug keystone. It's easier to find 4 friends that are willing to carry you than 19, I'll give you that. But then again if the number of players defines how hard content is then my point about Classic raiding comes into play. 40 man raiding is harder because finding 19 people is easier than finding 39. It's not that simple though is it? Buying a 15 timed is about 10x cheaper than buying a mythic nyalotha carry. And before you jump into conclusions, it's the mount at the end of the raid that skyrokets the price.

    Keystone Master difficulty is about the same level as clearing HC, and +20s are about the same level as clearing Mythic. That is exactly why the only realistic solution should be scaling rewards past 15. Current tier was not a good example since corruptions distorted our perception of gear upgrades and character progression.

    Well is someone that -generally speaking- kills 5-6 bosses or barely makes it to CE every tier after all the nerfs and gear boosts considered a Mythic raider? The fact that you think +15 are trivial to them early on makes me think you don't have that much experience out of doing M+ at all...
    The number of players does not define the difficulty, but the number of players with the skill in that content do.
    Also you can do as much +15 as you want, when raid loot is limited. Blizz doesnt want players to be able to farm heroic gear.
    There is no fact that i think +15 are easy early on, i did not say that.
    The fact is that blizzard cant add loot saves for dungeons with this system, they should have make the loot system different from the beggining, like letting you decide which dungeon and which key level want to use, at least until +15 and then implementing a save system like raids have but with mythic dungeons.
    But because the system sucks, now they have the idea of nerfing the reward from the dungeon because now they want HC+ to being only raid/weekly chest drop so you have a limited number of attemps per week to loot.

    I mostly agree with what you are saying, but mythic dung loot was too high for being able to farm it IMO and it seems in blizzard's, at least for now

  13. #233
    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    im sure HC only raiders "simply" grind +20 on daily basis...

    what exactly is wrong with system as it is now? last hc bosses give better gear than M+15, so M+ is competitive way of gearing, but raiding, be it heroic or mythic, STILL gives best gear... not to mention trinkets and some azerite from hc is STILL better even if you are decked in full M+15 weekly chest gear...

    after the change, if you raid heroic you dont need to bother doing more than one M+, as apart from weekly chest everything from it will be useless vendor trash...

    so to sumarise: right now m+ competitive gear, raids still provide best gear, so both are usefull
    after change, M+ BARELY above normal raid, raids provide even better gear, so M+ becomes kind of useless, and will be just a chore to do once a week
    M 20 isn't relevant because gear upgrades stop at 15.

    And yes I think a great deal of HC raiders can manage a +15. Its not going to be the smoothest experience ever and they will fail occasionally but hey, HC guilds also wipe on HC bosses.

    What is wrong now? ask all the HC guilds that can't find players because why bother when you can outgear HC by playing M dungeons. And the last bosses give 5 ilvl more is probably not worth the effort of finding and raiding with a guild. (and all this is made much worse by Titanforging which fortunately is going away)
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

  14. #234
    Here's where you are missing:

    1. Regardless of the item level, top tier players may still wear gear from Mythic +. Look at the Tusks from RU, or trinkets from other areas. Even at the heroic level these could still be better than mythic level gear that only drops in the raid.

    2. You M+ only players need to get off your high horse. being able to spam dungeons over and over to farm heroic level gear should have NEVER been in place. Raids have a weekly lockout. As a raider who has played since BC, there have been many weeks in my wow career that i did not receive any form of upgrade. This will make the upgrades you receive much more valuable. Getting 1 max level piece of gear a week guaranteed without even having to time the dungeon...that's pretty good.

    3. I wouldn't go so far as to compare the difficulty of dungeons to raids. But there is a level of planning an effort that goes into raid progression that doesn't exist in dungeons. This should be rewarded. This ALSO exists in Heroic...as top progression guilds will not have high item level on launch to clear these and pugs will not be able to full cler for at least the 1st couple weeks. Dungeons will fall over, at least at the lower levels, and are spammable ways to increase your character power.

    This change is great. Probably one of the best changes that they have made to the game in a while.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Gorsameth View Post
    M 20 isn't relevant because gear upgrades stop at 15.

    And yes I think a great deal of HC raiders can manage a +15. Its not going to be the smoothest experience ever and they will fail occasionally but hey, HC guilds also wipe on HC bosses.

    What is wrong now? ask all the HC guilds that can't find players because why bother when you can outgear HC by playing M dungeons. And the last bosses give 5 ilvl more is probably not worth the effort of finding and raiding with a guild. (and all this is made much worse by Titanforging which fortunately is going away)
    Noone "grinds" 20s. You PUSH 20+. This will stay the same in SL as it stands now in BFA

  15. #235
    Quote Originally Posted by Bennett View Post
    I've asked you for examples of this

    How is gearing too fast? How is that a bad thing?
    I'll give you an example of my experience.

    I burned out and quit back during the beginning of BFA as I wasn't enjoying the game. I got the itch and came back several months ago for a couple months. In that time I did nothing but dailies and the occasional M+. My character is over 470 and I pretty much need to immediately leap frog over all the other content and jump directly into mythic to continue progressing it.

    If I were a newer or less experienced player I would never have done anything challenging to teach me about the game, the pacing is basically non-existent. I just went from world quest difficulty to needing to do mythic raiding in order to progress my character further. That's absolutely not healthy for the game.

    You should want to progress through appropriate content, as opposed to leap frogging over it. But they've stretched the game so thin with difficulties and constantly pushing people into the most current content that its created this issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    The solution is to significantly slow down pre-raid gearing and provide more long term paths to gearing for players in that zone. Players who don't wish to play in that zone can easily leave it by doing M+ and raids. This problem was solved before it was ever a problem. It was a created problem.
    I agree that it definitely needs to be slowed down, but I'm wondering what long term paths means to you? For instance one of the main points in the OP in this thread is that M+ gear caps out at a lower ilvl than heroic raiding. Where do you see power related rewards capping out prior to participating in end game group activities? Or what other long term progression would you like to see for that part of the game that might not be power related?

    The numbers we were able to pull back in the day were extremely reliable because in the data we could parse out active, inactive, etc.. We were also able to compare the number of people that killed any bosses to the number that killed all and do similar analyses that provided insight on this. There is no way to massage those numbers to make raiding look like it was ever a popular activity.
    How many of those players raiding a given difficulty wanted / aspired to be raiding another difficulty? How many players bought the game with the intention to raid, or do dungeons, or pick any content you want but never got that far? How many people who completed a highly completed achievement actually had fun doing so and / or were playing the game for that specific thing? How many players felt forced to do X or Y content for rewards but otherwise would not have done it?

    I could keep coming up with questions like these all day, we don't have the information. All we can do is make assumptions.
    ..and so he left, with terrible power in shaking hands.

  16. #236
    Quote Originally Posted by Donimic View Post
    Other than the current season, a +15 was significantly harder than a heroic raid (in S1-S3 <1% achieved keystone master). We only recently hit a point with corruption and gear scaling that a +15 became "easy". This is further exacerbated by people watching MDI/WF players doing +13-17 on the BETA and inferring it being quickly achievable by the average player. The whole system trickles down and I don think people understand that. Even if we assume all mythic raiders can easily do a +15, any time they spend doing so gives them sub-heroic raid gear. Then a heroic raider does a 10 or 11 and gets sub-normal raid gear. How are people going to find doing content that offers no rewards for their ability fun?

    And this doesn't even cover the M+ only players who will be nowhere near being able to clear the content they would otherwise on a competitive ladder. Even on live the survivability/damage/healing between full 465 vs 475 is huge. Making this worse only puts "the wall" that much lower for those who cant full-clear mythic - which puts an artificial boundary on progress and feels bad. When WF/TF/corruption were a thing, this would have been fine due to the repeatability of M+ and fishing for RNG upgrades but putting high level M+ this much below other players on competitive content is unacceptable.
    I'd contest your perceived difficulty of a +15 to heroic raid, but that aside I don't think Keystone Master isn't the best metric as that achievement is typically a goal... and that goal isn't player power. You could maximize your player power gain on a character via M+ and not get Keystone Master, because you do something like aim for only doing FH +15's every week in pugs and call it a week... and always avoid places like SotS/TD that are much harder with most affixes (this was my general strategy with alts as it was the best cost/benefit ratio). Usually my alts where I only did M+ and maintained high ilvls relevant to the current patch had +15's in 3-5 dungeons, because the weekly chest gearing method doesn't discourage such behavior.

    As has probably been mentioned ad nauseum, M+ is a spammable loot system that has been rewarding better-than-heroic loot in the latest BfA patch. That in itself is a huge problem from the overall gearing model, even when it was just heroic loot, and even more when you look at the weekly rewards. Should content that is spammable, requires much less players, less organization, less time, and generally less effort be rewarding better or the best loot compared to something that has a weekly lockout (where you may not even personally get loot), requires more players, more organization, more time, and generally more effort? My answer is absolutely not, as I feel players should be rewarded according to all those factors.

    However, the responses I've seen that are against the beta changes all boil down to wanting M+, despite being inferior to mythic (or even heroic) raiding in term of the multiple factor I mentioned above (and that's not even all of them), to be just as rewarding as said content. Most, but not all, of the responses tend to be emotional arguments instead of logical/rational arguments, similar to what happens if you see a nerf to a class where the class in question screams the sky is falling while every other class knows the nerf was a long time coming. I've seen the sob stories of "I don't have time to invest in raiding, but this change is forcing me to raid!", and the irony is that nothing has changed in this regard. The translation is "I'm used to getting rewarded just as much or better than raiding with much less time and effort, but now if I want the best gear I won't get it as fast if I don't raid!" Key points are you won't get gear as fast, as there's some important things here. In terms of spamming M+, yes, gearing will be slower at the start... but spammable content should have inferior rewards compared to hard lockouts. But... getting 'BiS' gear will actually be faster if you only M+ over the season with Shadowlands because of how the Vault works.

    So does the current beta systems kill M+? Nope, not at all, especially if M+ is your only content. All these changes do is smooth out your gear progression in M+ while simultaneously preventing M+ from interfering with raiding. Your initial gearing will be slower than BfA at the start, but reaching your end gear point will be faster. If your game is M+, you will reach the same gear levels as a mythic raider if you want, that doesn't change. If your sticking point is that the last two mythic bosses are giving ilvl rewards higher than available in M+, you're never going to convince me the effort and cost required to progress and kill the toughest mythic bosses in a raid is found anywhere in M+ content with how it's designed (which is also why I hope the Vault doesn't give loot from the higher ilvl bosses unless you've killed them that week). In SL, M+ will be better rewarded than heroic raiders on a weekly basis still (even though there still may be issues with this), as no amount of heroic raiding will get you a higher reward than doing one +14 key in the Vault. There's so much good going for M+ in Shadowlands that's an improvement that gets ignored in this current discussion, which is why I feel most arguments are emotional and with either no basis or illogical chains of thought.
    “Society is endangered not by the great profligacy of a few, but by the laxity of morals amongst all.”
    “It's not an endlessly expanding list of rights — the 'right' to education, the 'right' to health care, the 'right' to food and housing. That's not freedom, that's dependency. Those aren't rights, those are the rations of slavery — hay and a barn for human cattle.”
    ― Alexis de Tocqueville

  17. #237
    Quote Originally Posted by Delever View Post
    Very simple. For 2 reasons:
    1.) You cannot run the heroic raid unlimited amount of times
    2.) The heroic raid will not guarantee you a mythic raid ilvl item at the end of the week.
    then the "solution" would be to limit amount of gear you can get per week, not making it WORSE...
    and yes, you can run M+ "unlimited time", you can also NOT FINISH IT, when someone leaves you are fucked, in raid you just invite someone else or continue other day...

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Gorsameth View Post
    M 20 isn't relevant because gear upgrades stop at 15.

    And yes I think a great deal of HC raiders can manage a +15. Its not going to be the smoothest experience ever and they will fail occasionally but hey, HC guilds also wipe on HC bosses.

    What is wrong now? ask all the HC guilds that can't find players because why bother when you can outgear HC by playing M dungeons. And the last bosses give 5 ilvl more is probably not worth the effort of finding and raiding with a guild. (and all this is made much worse by Titanforging which fortunately is going away)
    a goddamn monkey can manage +15, its easy, same as HC raiding, and no, M+20 is not irelevant, if the +15 is too easy to reward HC gear (which its not) then surely they could just up the ceiling to +20...

    well yeah, if your stance is "better gear is not worth the effort of raiding" then there is different problem than M+...
    and surely, if 5ilvl is not worth it, then 3ilvl which will be now above M+15 is not worth it even more, so why bother... then again, normal last few bosses is just 3 below M+15, so why bother with M+ at all...and so on...

  18. #238
    Quote Originally Posted by facefist View Post
    I can't believe that you, as a raider, threw out this argument. Do you enjoy raiding? If yes, then would you be fine with them reducing raid loot to let's say 1/5 of what you currently get? Obviously you shouldn't complain about having to do more of raiding if you enjoy it - maybe even make it so that you can get only 1 item for a full clear, but you can clear it twice a week. More raiding because of less loot = more fun for you!
    Its like nobody in this thread has actually raided, ever... What makes you think you get loot every week just because you raid?
    I have gone months and sometimes even full tiers without ever seeing a piece of item drop... You're GUARANTEED to get one item per week... The entitlement from the M+ crowd is unreal....

  19. #239
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    "Weeks" is not long enough, it should take MONTHS, and what you are counting into that time is the time period after you are so geared up that upgrades are only available from a small number of weekly things that can be completed in an hour.

    By the time you get the reps up, you've already received equivalent or better gear elsewhere in almost any case. Same for crafting. Are there exceptions, like CoA at the beginning of the expansions? Sure, but the existence of some small exceptions that primarily only exist before any patches doesn't negate my argument.
    At this point you're asking for something that has not existed in the game longer than it ever did.

    What I'm getting from this is you don't want to do dungeons and raids but want your progression to last months? Sorry - I don't think that's at all realistic.

  20. #240
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    People still want to feel relatively balanced. Nobody wants to walk into a dungeon and the mage does 75% of the damage even if he is the worst player just because the game is only balanced at the extremes.

    And more importantly people don’t want to feel their class changed and nerfed because 1% of people are pulling ahead in top tier content with the same spec when that spec is perfectly balanced for everyone else. You think that feels good? “We took away this thing you enjoyed because a mythic raider was doing well with it”. What shit design. I’d get laughed out of a design meeting with that proposal.
    It's just impossible to balance on every possible level of content. You're kinda overrecating because if a mage is doing 75% of the DPS then it's not the balancing fault. I understand your concern, but I think that it shouldn't matter that much in lfr/normal/hc. I'd even say that 10-15% differences in DPS is not that high for the unbalanced low level content.

    Quote Originally Posted by erifwodahs View Post
    tbc end of the dungeon loot, one peace only which is sub HC level is shit design unless they add another step in the ladder for let's say +20 where you get something between HC and Mythic. On given affixes a +15 in time may be harder to clear than any HC boss early on in the season.
    HC raid you get more and better loot and in M+ you spend more time for less loot.

    Maybe blizz looked at key pushers and said that "they don't do it for loot anyway" which is mostly true later in season but it was better with TF. Removing TF was bad enough hit for M+ runners, now we literally do stuff for no reward what so ever.
    I wouldn't say that HC raid is giving you more loot. The drop chances will be reduced in SL and we all know that you can spam M+ dungeon. And the whole dungeons drop list is higher than the raid one.

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