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  1. #241
    Quote Originally Posted by NatePsy View Post
    And you really think in this day and age, that they would survive on that sort of mentality?-assumption-
    Classic proves that yes, they THRIVE off of that mentality.

  2. #242
    Actually... i find this a good change? Raiding should be rewarding! you spend allot more time in raids then Mythic+
    Also no titanforging? no corruption shit? i can have a best in slot list again!?
    Hell i thought atleast the socket will suck but you can buy a item enhancer for that 2!

    So now i can finally play multiple chars and not be gimped on any of them!
    Finally! there should be a moment when you get that last item and think to yourself. it's DONE best item on every slot. every raid boss dead! highest possible dps Simmed for that last time!

    Now to take a more casual playing style and enjoy an alt or rolfstomping some easy dunguons with non mythic raiding friends.
    http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/4...4841599821.jpg the boy that will forever be named the HHD wiper. R.I.P

  3. #243
    Quote Originally Posted by Accendor View Post
    Sure, just invest like 200 euro for fun, lets go
    A minute ago you said you only like to play 1 char... Thats one transfer, not even close to 200 euro lol....

  4. #244
    Quote Originally Posted by tomten View Post
    Its like nobody in this thread has actually raided, ever... What makes you think you get loot every week just because you raid?
    I have gone months and sometimes even full tiers without ever seeing a piece of item drop... You're GUARANTEED to get one item per week... The entitlement from the M+ crowd is unreal....
    Full tier without seeing a piece of item drop. You kill only the first boss every week or what?

  5. #245
    Quote Originally Posted by facefist View Post
    Full tier without seeing a piece of item drop. You kill only the first boss every week or what?
    My bad, just poor english. Should have been specific piece of item. Almost always been trinkets.
    Still, raiding does not guarantee you gear every week, even from a full clear. M+, however, does.

  6. #246
    I seriously do not think people understand how important Mythic plus was to guilds and ESPECIALLY Alliance guilds. These changes are going have extremely negative effects on the game.

    Mythic plus was A MAJOR powerhouse feature of WoW that is now dead. Noone is wasting time in Mythic plus to get sub heroic gear when you can pug other content much easier with less effort. It is literally now just Normal Plus.

    If you understand how WoW works this is going to be a serious nightmare.

  7. #247
    Raiding was always and always be the pinnacle of World of Warcraft - no matter how many people actually do it, it is the final goal, something every PvE strives for.

    People that thinks best form of endgame PvE is 30 minutes runs should find a game better suited for their instant gratification needs.

  8. #248
    Quote Originally Posted by Bennett View Post
    At this point you're asking for something that has not existed in the game longer than it ever did.

    What I'm getting from this is you don't want to do dungeons and raids but want your progression to last months? Sorry - I don't think that's at all realistic.
    Yet somehow the game worked like that for years and years and years. And I never said no dungeons.

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    [QUOTE=Baconeggcheese;52652435]
    I agree that it definitely needs to be slowed down, but I'm wondering what long term paths means to you? For instance one of the main points in the OP in this thread is that M+ gear caps out at a lower ilvl than heroic raiding. Where do you see power related rewards capping out prior to participating in end game group activities? Or what other long term progression would you like to see for that part of the game that might not be power related?

    They don't need to cap out much differently than where they do now. They just need to not drown you the minute you hit max level. Heroic dungeons ARE an endgame group activity, so this isn't about negating all endgame grouping. It's about that running a heroic is a pointless waste of time, when it used to be something people did for a long time to gear up.



    How many of those players raiding a given difficulty wanted / aspired to be raiding another difficulty? How many players bought the game with the intention to raid, or do dungeons, or pick any content you want but never got that far? How many people who completed a highly completed achievement actually had fun doing so and / or were playing the game for that specific thing? How many players felt forced to do X or Y content for rewards but otherwise would not have done it?

    I could keep coming up with questions like these all day, we don't have the information. All we can do is make assumptions.
    This really just sounds like you don't want to accept what are clear as day numbers. Just throwing random questions out doesn't defeat data. If you have data that shows otherwise, present it, but no amount of "but uh but uh but uh" is ever going to actually be more reliable than data.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  9. #249
    Legendary! TEHPALLYTANK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    nobody denies that, thats why it alwyas did, currently does and will in future reward best loot...
    heroic on the other hand, is way easier, and is definitely not harder than +15 or higher keys, so why on earth it should reward better loot?
    It doesn't, the weekly chest provides up a choice from 3 items@226 ilvl from doing M+, and last I checked 226>213. M+ is at least on par with Mythic raiding in terms of loot rewarded on a weekly lockout, and well ahead of Heroic raiding. M+ is superior to normal raids, and for some slots it will still be on par with heroic raid gear due to itemization. Being 3 ilvls higher with your two worst stats versus a 210 item that has your two best stats, you're probably going to be using the lower ilvl item. Same with certain trinkets, the effects are going to far outweigh the mere 3 ilvl difference.
    (Source of the numbers I'm using)


    The only major difference is you can't spam M+ to match the ilvl of heroic raid gear, you're stuck like everyone else on the weekly lockout system for your best pieces. Welcome to the world of gearing that raiders always have had to face: Weekly lockouts, sorry that you're too impatient to deal with something that every raider has to cope with.

    The upside is you can still get ahead of Heroic raiders in ilvl by decking yourself in 210 in every slot within a single week (I don't recommend doing it, but you will be able to if you desire). Heroic raiders cannot get a full set of 213 from a single week, it literally is impossible even if you get an item from every single boss and none of the items overlap on slots.

    As to why I think raiding should reward better loot than M+: It requires logistical organization that far exceeds that of M+, and that effort shouldn't be discounted as having no value. The challenge of finding or organizing 4 people isn't remotely comparable to finding 10+ people, or arranging for 10+ people to meet the same schedule(depending on if you're pugging or doing organized raiding).
    Last edited by TEHPALLYTANK; 2020-09-19 at 03:36 PM.
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  10. #250
    Quote Originally Posted by Accendor View Post
    If you check my opening post you will see that I am specifically talking about what happens when you mythic raid. That is where the problems mainly are.

    - - - Updated - - -



    ... What does minmax vs casuals has to do with that? E.g. I am a minmax and I hate that there is nothing to do for me except raids.
    Only there is. You can get gladiator, you can push keys, you can do pet battle dungeons or collect achievements and mounts. Not sure where is the problem?

  11. #251
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Wotlk, yes, TBC, no.

    You could progress pretty far in TBC without ever touching a raid, heroics were on par / superior to a lot of T4 items, Craftables sometimes lasted into T6.
    Not to mention all the badge stuff you could buy later on, which you could farm without doing raids.

    And obviously PvP provided a decent alternative as well.
    So basically you could get kara-quality gear. Or you could raid if you wanted anything better.

    Sounds pretty spot on for raid or die to me

  12. #252
    Quote Originally Posted by matheney2k View Post
    So basically you could get kara-quality gear. Or you could raid if you wanted anything better.
    Then read again.
    heroics were on par / superior to a lot of T4 items, Craftables sometimes lasted into T6.

  13. #253
    Quote Originally Posted by Soluna View Post
    Only there is. You can get gladiator, you can push keys, you can do pet battle dungeons or collect achievements and mounts. Not sure where is the problem?
    None of that rewards character progression

  14. #254
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    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    "If Blizzard doesn't allow me to gear up with minimal effort, I'm leaving!"

    Ok, bye. The game isn't made just for you.
    That isn't at all what I said, please learn to read and don't strawman.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Bennett View Post
    You're ignoring the facts that;

    - you get a chest of guaranteed mythic loot every week
    - since there is no extra effects you only need to get a piece of gear once
    - you're assuming you can do 3 and get no loot, which can happen but is really unlucky and shouldn't be seen as the rule
    - if you're actively trying to gear and it matters to you, you should be doing both the raids and M+, and 3 a week would be pretty minimal effort
    In response to your first two points - yes, there is a chest with a guaranteed piece of loot per week, and yes you only need to get a slot filled once, however, we know that duplicates can happen. Even if they didn't, it would take 4 months (!) to get fully geared that way, but it could take even longer with dupes. That's a major shift too far in the other direction from BfA.

    Regarding your third point, you have a 1 in 5 chance of getting loot or, conversely, a 4 in 5 chance of NOT getting loot. It's really not that unlikely that you could do your 3 runs and get nothing.

    As to your last point, yes, I'll do what M+ runs I can, but you obviously didn't read my whole post, or you'd know why doing the raids is (and will continue to be) difficult for me. I have a guild that is willing to let me come along when I can make it but, at some point, a low ilvl cannot be completely compensated for by skill, and I become a burden to them. In Legion and BfA, the higher amount of loot (and the presence of warforging and titanforging) meant I could keep the ilvl gap to an acceptable minimum. The changes to M+ in SL could easily make it so that I am too far behind (with no chance of recovery) after only a few weeks. I don't want to leave my friends, and no serious guild would accept me as a member based on my random availability, which would leave me only the option of WQs and grinding M+ ad nauseum... not exactly my idea of fun.

  15. #255
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Wotlk, yes, TBC, no.

    You could progress pretty far in TBC without ever touching a raid, heroics were on par / superior to a lot of T4 items, Craftables sometimes lasted into T6.
    Not to mention all the badge stuff you could buy later on, which you could farm without doing raids.

    And obviously PvP provided a decent alternative as well.
    So it was raid or die. If you had mostly T5 equivalent gear by crafting you were still far behind raiders who had T6/Sunwell gear. It's like rocking with 450 ilvl in retail while mythic raiders have 480 ilvl.

  16. #256
    Quote Originally Posted by Mystikal View Post
    That isn't at all what I said, please learn to read and don't strawman.

    - - - Updated - - -



    In response to your first two points - yes, there is a chest with a guaranteed piece of loot per week, and yes you only need to get a slot filled once, however, we know that duplicates can happen. Even if they didn't, it would take 4 months (!) to get fully geared that way, but it could take even longer with dupes. That's a major shift too far in the other direction from BfA.

    Regarding your third point, you have a 1 in 5 chance of getting loot or, conversely, a 4 in 5 chance of NOT getting loot. It's really not that unlikely that you could do your 3 runs and get nothing.

    As to your last point, yes, I'll do what M+ runs I can, but you obviously didn't read my whole post, or you'd know why doing the raids is (and will continue to be) difficult for me. I have a guild that is willing to let me come along when I can make it but, at some point, a low ilvl cannot be completely compensated for by skill, and I become a burden to them. In Legion and BfA, the higher amount of loot (and the presence of warforging and titanforging) meant I could keep the ilvl gap to an acceptable minimum. The changes to M+ in SL could easily make it so that I am too far behind (with no chance of recovery) after only a few weeks. I don't want to leave my friends, and no serious guild would accept me as a member based on my random availability, which would leave me only the option of WQs and grinding M+ ad nauseum... not exactly my idea of fun.
    Well with your limited availability, what makes you think that you deserve to be as geared as the players who put the time and effort in to farming BIS gear? This isn't "everyone get's a prize for showing up". Just because you are raiding mythic does not mean you will immediately get BIS gear - I've seen players go entire tiers in raids and not get the loot they need because it just never drops off the boss. This is what an MMO is. Blizzard catered to the casuals a bit too much and now there are entitlement issues. Don't let the door hit you when you unsub.

  17. #257
    Quote Originally Posted by mmocfd1b0ab5a3 View Post
    So it was raid or die. If you had mostly T5 equivalent gear by crafting you were still far behind raiders who had T6/Sunwell gear.
    It's not like you could buy even more badge gear in 2.3 and 2.4, said badge gear was again equivalent to T5 / T6 loot.
    Not to mention that PvP gear remained equivalent to its respective PvE counterpart (albeit slightly worse for some specs).

    If you want to see what "Raid or die" actually means, look towards Wotlk and Cata, there you were screwed if you didn't want to raid past 5man dungeons.

    If your definition of "Raid or die" is "you have to raid for BiS gear" then said definition is the MO of WoW since its inception.
    Last edited by Kralljin; 2020-09-17 at 11:19 PM.

  18. #258
    To be honest, good. I prefer expansions where there's less content that you need to do to progress your character. Legion and BFA have both proved that the infinite progression treadmill is not something that players enjoy that much.

    I honestly just hope that Torghast is fun. I do not give one iota of a crap about anything else the game has to offer. If there's too much you need to do to do well in Torghast outside of Torghast, Blizzard fucked up. I can handle "two raid sessions a week".
    If you are particularly bold, you could use a Shiny Ditto. Do keep in mind though, this will infuriate your opponents due to Ditto's beauty. Please do not use Shiny Ditto. You have been warned.

  19. #259
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oflex View Post
    Well with your limited availability, what makes you think that you deserve to be as geared as the players who put the time and effort in to farming BIS gear? This isn't "everyone get's a prize for showing up". Just because you are raiding mythic does not mean you will immediately get BIS gear - I've seen players go entire tiers in raids and not get the loot they need because it just never drops off the boss. This is what an MMO is. Blizzard catered to the casuals a bit too much and now there are entitlement issues. Don't let the door hit you when you unsub.
    Because I'm still capable of doing heroic raids skill wise, but because my real life means I can't get on at the same time every week, my character progression should just stop after a couple weeks' worth of World Quest rewards? I'm not asking for a participation prize, as you put it, I'm simply asking for a means to remain near to my friends' ilvls (not necessarily equal to) that doesn't involve spamming M+ endlessly when I am online, to the exclusion of all else. If Blizzard feels that the ilvls from M+ drops must be lower, fine, but don't also reduce the chance of actually getting loot to almost zero. There is a comfortable middle ground where people like me can still maintain a decent level of gear without having to spend all our free time in M+ dungeons, whilst also allowing regular heroic and mythic raiders to enjoy a higher ilvl. Simply saying "fuck you" to people like me isn't good for the health of the game. Blizzard needs to learn the meaning of "middle ground".

  20. #260
    Quote Originally Posted by Accendor View Post
    None of that rewards character progression
    Tough luck. World top 100 raiders also don't want to be pigeonholed into specific covenants but guilds will force them if they want to stay competitive. I think a better reward for that matter is definitely a step in the right direction.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Mystikal View Post
    Because I'm still capable of doing heroic raids skill wise, but because my real life means I can't get on at the same time every week, my character progression should just stop after a couple weeks' worth of World Quest rewards? I'm not asking for a participation prize, as you put it, I'm simply asking for a means to remain near to my friends' ilvls (not necessarily equal to) that doesn't involve spamming M+ endlessly when I am online, to the exclusion of all else. If Blizzard feels that the ilvls from M+ drops must be lower, fine, but don't also reduce the chance of actually getting loot to almost zero. There is a comfortable middle ground where people like me can still maintain a decent level of gear without having to spend all our free time in M+ dungeons, whilst also allowing regular heroic and mythic raiders to enjoy a higher ilvl. Simply saying "fuck you" to people like me isn't good for the health of the game. Blizzard needs to learn the meaning of "middle ground".
    You can just pug heroic raids.

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