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  1. #261
    The Patient
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soluna View Post
    You can just pug heroic raids.
    Not according to a lot of the posters in this thread. According to them, pugging a +15 is "far, far, far easier" than pugging a heroic raid. Not to mention the fact, who is going to take an undergeared character to a random heroic PuG? The vast majority of PuGs want a character with Curve and an ilvl equal to (if not greater) than what the raid actually drops.

    In addition, all the posts of "don't forget the weekly chest, lulz" seem to be based on the assumption that we will all be clearing +15s in time from week 1 of M+ being available. That simply won't be the case and, ironically, will only be possible for those who are gearing from heroic raids. If, like me, you can't raid every week, then your ilvl is going to be severely throttled by the much lower chance of actually getting loot from M+, and your weekly reward will more likely be a 213 piece, the same ilvl as heroic (not mythic) raids, which heroic raiders will be flooded with. The only reliable source of gearing will be World Quests (ugh) and heroic dungeons, neither of which will allow you to push all the way up to a +15.

    Realistically, heroic and mythic raiders will be 'done' with gearing in about 6-10 weeks, whereas those who cannot raid will never be 'done', as the frequency and quality of loot will be far too low. The reduced loot drops will also make it less efficient to grind M+ constantly, so the vast majority will do the 4 required for their 2 items of choice in the weekly quest, and will then stop for the week. This will add a further barrier where, if you do not get your runs done early in the week, you will be left struggling to find groups to get your own done.

    These changes are just poorly thought out by Blizzard. Either reduce frequency or quality, but not both.
    Last edited by Mystikal; 2020-09-18 at 12:41 AM. Reason: Spelling & grammar

  2. #262
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    They don't need to cap out much differently than where they do now. They just need to not drown you the minute you hit max level. Heroic dungeons ARE an endgame group activity, so this isn't about negating all endgame grouping. It's about that running a heroic is a pointless waste of time, when it used to be something people did for a long time to gear up.
    Yeah that all seems pretty agreeable, so I'm confused how the convo became about not wanting people to have a game to play?

    This really just sounds like you don't want to accept what are clear as day numbers. Just throwing random questions out doesn't defeat data. If you have data that shows otherwise, present it, but no amount of "but uh but uh but uh" is ever going to actually be more reliable than data.
    But they're not random questions, they're thought out questions. I remember them from back then because those were the exact kind of discussions that were happening back when we had the data.

    You can go down this rabbit hole all day using steam statistics. The number of people who complete a game vs the total that have bought it is always a fraction. But a lot of people will have those easy to get achievements from early on into the game, even then its only a fraction of the number of total people who bought it.

    Apply the assumptions your making to any of those games based on similar statistics, it'll start to sound really silly really fast.
    ..and so he left, with terrible power in shaking hands.

  3. #263
    Quote Originally Posted by wrathblade View Post
    Actually... i find this a good change? Raiding should be rewarding! you spend allot more time in raids then Mythic+
    Also no titanforging? no corruption shit? i can have a best in slot list again!?
    Hell i thought atleast the socket will suck but you can buy a item enhancer for that 2!

    So now i can finally play multiple chars and not be gimped on any of them!
    Finally! there should be a moment when you get that last item and think to yourself. it's DONE best item on every slot. every raid boss dead! highest possible dps Simmed for that last time!

    Now to take a more casual playing style and enjoy an alt or rolfstomping some easy dunguons with non mythic raiding friends.
    You could do exactly all of that before. I had the most Alts in legion than I did in probably any point in the game and every single one of them was able to get raid ready in a week or two tops after hitting max level. Christ Vanilla was probably the last time gearing/leveling an alt took effort but.


    Seems like for whatever reason you're just sexually aroused by the idea of a single BiS list. Seek help, because your own weird neurosis was the only thing stopping you from enjoying casual play in past expansions.
    Last edited by shimerra; 2020-09-18 at 12:21 AM.
    “Logic: The art of thinking and reasoning in strict accordance with the limitations and incapacities of the human misunderstanding.”
    "Conservative, n: A statesman who is enamored of existing evils, as distinguished from the Liberal who wishes to replace them with others."
    Ambrose Bierce
    The Bird of Hermes Is My Name, Eating My Wings To Make Me Tame.

  4. #264
    I love how mythic raiders go on about how ilvl doesnt matter in world content. Like people dont want to run content and test themselves like soloing dungeons or soloing older mythic raids where gear certainly does help. And yea doing world quests faster is obviously something someone would want to work towards as they progress their character in an rpg.

    If gear doesnt matter why do you need it for mythic raiding as well? Just use your skill and 20 raid roster synergy epicness to beat lines of code.
    Comes a time when we all gotta die...even kings.

  5. #265
    Quote Originally Posted by Volatilis View Post
    I love how mythic raiders go on about how ilvl doesnt matter in world content. Like people dont want to run content and test themselves like soloing dungeons or soloing older mythic raids where gear certainly does help. And yea doing world quests faster is obviously something someone would want to work towards as they progress their character in an rpg.

    If gear doesnt matter why do you need it for mythic raiding as well? Just use your skill and 20 raid roster synergy epicness to beat lines of code.
    Dungeons and old mythic raids aren't world content by the by, you've come to a really odd conclusion here.
    ..and so he left, with terrible power in shaking hands.

  6. #266
    Quote Originally Posted by Mystikal View Post
    Not according to a lot of the posters in this thread. According to them, pugging a +15 is "far, far, far easier" than pugging a heroic raid. Not to mention the fact, who is going to take an undergeared character to a random heroic PuG? The vast majority of PuGs want a character with Curve and an ilvl equal to (if not greater) than what the raid actually drops.

    In addition, all the posts of "don't forget the weekly chest, lulz" seem to be based on the assumption that we will all be clearing +15s in time from week 1 of M+ being available. That simply won't be the case and, ironically, will only be possible for those who are gearing from heroic raids. If, like me, you can't raid every week, then your ilvl is going to be severely throttled by the much lower chance of actually getting loot from M+, and your weekly reward will more likely be a 213 piece, the same ilvl as heroic (not mythic) raids, which heroic raiders will be flooded with. The only reliable source of gearing will be World Quests (ugh) and heroic dungeons, neither of which will allow you to push all the way up to a +15.

    Realistically, heroic and mythic raiders will be 'done' with gearing in about 6-10 weeks, whereas those who cannot raid will never be 'done', as the frequency and quality of loot will be far too low. The reduced loot drops will also make it less efficient to grind M+ constantly, so the vast majority will do the 4 required for their 2 items of choice in the weekly quest, and will then stop for the week. This will add a further barrier where, if you do not get your runs done early in the week, you will be left struggling to find groups to get your own done.

    These changes are just poorly thought out by Blizzard. Either reduce frequency or quality, but not both.
    You know what else is poorly thought out? Covenant implementation. But since I am getting effed by blizz on that department, I am glad that non raiders get something to cry about too

    As for pugging, get ready for it to be even harder to join pugs for anyone that chooses 'character identity' over player power!

    I honestly cannot wait for all these ''RPG lovers'' to realise just how wrong it is to cage players like that, after they get a full taste of the pugging community on live.

  7. #267
    Quote Originally Posted by Baconeggcheese View Post
    Dungeons and old mythic raids aren't world content by the by, you've come to a really odd conclusion here.
    ok then, "content outside of one raid difficulty"
    Comes a time when we all gotta die...even kings.

  8. #268
    Quote Originally Posted by Volatilis View Post
    ok then, "content outside of one raid difficulty"
    But that doesn't fit the rest of your post since no one says that ilvl doesn't matter outside of one raid difficulty.
    ..and so he left, with terrible power in shaking hands.

  9. #269
    Quote Originally Posted by Baconeggcheese View Post
    But that doesn't fit the rest of your post since no one says that ilvl doesn't matter outside of one raid difficulty.
    except they do. In this very thread.

    Let me quote you one.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Eazy View Post
    I wouldn't say that they're not relevant. More, I'd say that M+ will still be main thing(at least at start) to gear up asap. But then? Just do whatever you think it's the best for you, because the ilvl drop would be the same.







    Because that's the place where it matters the most. Who cares if you kill mobs on the WQuests 0,5-2 seconds faster than other classes? Who cares if you one-shot people at 1400 rating that have no idea how to counter your combo? Who cares if you finish +3 with "3 drops"?

    No one.

    Because it doesn't matter. The lower skill content doesn't matter. People are not racing in who kills the first 3 normal bosses ASAP. Why? Because 90% of the WoW community can do it(probably without even any preparation with LFR gear). While less than 1% participate in the world first race. The highest contents require balance, because there only player should matter, his dedication, his commitment, his preparation.

    That's the reason why it should be balanced there - on the highest ilvl/skill content.
    Quote Originally Posted by Baconeggcheese View Post
    But that doesn't fit the rest of your post since no one says that ilvl doesn't matter outside of one raid difficulty.
    Like this one for example
    Comes a time when we all gotta die...even kings.

  10. #270
    Actually this feels good. Log on, do raid, log off, go play other games. Being forced to grind endlessly feels bad and leads to burnout and with this you get to take breaks during week to play better, more fun games.

  11. #271
    Quote Originally Posted by Volatilis View Post
    except they do. In this very thread.

    Let me quote you one.

    Like this one for example
    But that doesn't say that? His post was about the game being balanced around mythic.
    ..and so he left, with terrible power in shaking hands.

  12. #272
    Scarab Lord crakerjack's Avatar
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    Good, more people will raid and if they hate raiding, they probably weren't raiding to begin with. Love me some dungeons and raids.
    Most likely the wisest Enhancement Shaman.

  13. #273
    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    and mythic raiding currently DOES reward best gear...
    but after this change even HC raiding, which is middle tier, will reward better gear than any m+ keys even the "top" keys... and that is just stupid...
    So basically like all of Legion when end of dungeon gear capped at 5 item levels below heroic raids?

    Or only 3 item level difference from BfA seasons 1-3 where end of dungeon gear capped at equal to heroic?

    And leave out how only in 8.3, in the 8th raid tier of mythic+ existence, the weekly chest finally was equal to the mythic raid and not 5 item levels under it?

  14. #274
    Quote Originally Posted by Baconeggcheese View Post
    But that doesn't say that? His post was about the game being balanced around mythic.
    sure if you ignore "Because that's the place where it matters the most. Who cares if you kill mobs on the WQuests 0,5-2 seconds faster than other classes? Who cares if you one-shot people at 1400 rating that have no idea how to counter your combo? Who cares if you finish +3 with "3 drops"?

    No one."

    No one cares about ilvl for world quests is what hes implying and a lot of people that want to dictate how the game is played because they need to feel shiny and new with their mythic gear think this way. Never mind if it leads to bad decisions for the entire playerbase like the reduction in m+ loot because they whined about being forced to grind it. I mean come on. That is an actual example of no one forcing you do that but your self.

    Well i care about doing world quests over and over quicker and im sure a lot of other people do so yeah
    Comes a time when we all gotta die...even kings.

  15. #275
    Quote Originally Posted by Argorwal View Post
    So basically like all of Legion when end of dungeon gear capped at 5 item levels below heroic raids?

    Or only 3 item level difference from BfA seasons 1-3 where end of dungeon gear capped at equal to heroic?

    And leave out how only in 8.3, in the 8th raid tier of mythic+ existence, the weekly chest finally was equal to the mythic raid and not 5 item levels under it?
    arent you forgeting titanforging?

  16. #276
    Quote Originally Posted by Nuciek View Post
    But that was exactly my point. You just proved my point. That guy said that Mythic raiding is the hardest part of the game because it requires the biggest group. And I did that comparison just to show that there might be two paths, two different contents (sports) that you can't even compare because they require different skill set. They are two different things and you can't say one is harder than the order just like that.

    Just like you can't say that Mythic raiding is harder than PvP or M+, because they are different type of content, and in my opinion they should reward equal rewards (at comparable levels of difficulty, based on percentage of players being able to complete it).
    Not really;
    M+ and mythic raids are far more alike than your alegory.
    If anything they should be compared to Futsal vs Football (or what americans understand as Soccer).
    The only real difference here being the scale and field played on.

    Much like the above example raiding and m+ require pretty much the same skillset, except that:
    - one is rather stale, limited to same set of dungeons for an entire expansion, with the only difference being a set of trash packs that change every major patch.
    - the other one requires a lot more coordination and management and introduces a whole new field to play on with every major patch.

  17. #277
    This is exactly how it should have always been rather than trying to force M+ to be a place for progression equal to raiding, when the skill required for the gear relative to raiding was much lower.

    If all you do is M+, then it shouldn't matter what ilvl your gear is because doing that and the other avenues for progress OUTSIDE of raiding will still be rewarding you with progress. If you don't raid, and the difficulty in what you are doing doesn't require your rewards to raid tier, then it's completely unjustified to have M+ be as rewarding as it is, especially when it doesn't have ANY lockout for the incredible gear it currently gives and effort involved.

    The only negative is obviously that if you raid then your avenues for progression are much lower, however that doesn't change the fact that you could simply play an alt or still push high keys, though they won't really be much of a reward relative to if you do raiding. As far as I'm concerned M+ should never have given Heroic raid gear and the weekly chest gave far too strong loot relative to only having to do a 10 dungeon not even in time. By putting M+ and Raiding into two much more distanced progression paths, it solves a problem for the two differing communities involved in each of them.
    Last edited by La; 2020-09-18 at 06:09 AM.
    *Insert every single ridiculous PC parts detail here that no one cares about*

  18. #278
    Quote Originally Posted by NatePsy View Post
    Yeah not every M+ difficulty gives 210 though, that's only 15+, the levels prior to that are on par with Normal loot or less AND once per run. I get their strategy, M+ dropped too much at once and that is fine (Limiting it to one per dungeon) but to go ahead and make the ilvl worse than it was in BFA and Legion? That's bs.

    M+ is clearly a popular piece of content, why go to this length to make it utter shit for those that enjoy it?
    Because brain dead morons who can't think for themselves or have the backbone to tell their pathetic raid leader no act as if m+ is forced on them by blizzard putting a gun to their head if it is anywhere near decent to gear with.

  19. #279
    Quote Originally Posted by Krimzin View Post
    I guess I just don't get the solo mentality. You are playing a Multi Player Game but don't really want to run with people, except when you absolutely have to. I mean I understand part of it because there are times I just wanna do my own thing, but the core part of the game is built around grouping. Im guessing you just haven't had good luck with guilds in general. Ive been lucky and found my way in to a boatload of good guilds over the past 15 yrs. Still friends with a lot of them. I cant imagine playing WoW without a solid group of friends, it would be boring as fuck.
    I always felt the core part of the game was having a large open world with tons of active players and character progression (i.e. an RPG), at least it used to be.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Accendor View Post
    Yeah, that's not in SL, sorry

    - - - Updated - - -



    What has that to do with anything in this thread?

    - - - Updated - - -



    Sure, just invest like 200 euro for fun, lets go
    Well, that's unfortunate

  20. #280
    People were railing against the endless progression that Artifact Power and Azerite Power brought. Some were even fear mongering that Anima Power is the new AP.
    Now that we know that it has nothing to do with player power, all of the sudden people realize that they can do stuff... but don't have to? And that's bad?
    No matter how they do it, people will complain.

    Concerning M+
    What is really changing here? M+ endgame is still waiting for the weekly chest. Which is still on par with Mythic raids. And that thing has massively improved from the current iteration.
    Normal loot being a tiny bit below heroic raids means jack shit at the end of the day. It's going to get replaced eventually.

    At least now it's worthwhile to hop into a raid with friends as a side thing. Due to M+ being farmable, heroic raids were worthless in BfA.

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