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  1. #281
    Quote Originally Posted by Zmagoslav View Post
    Not really;
    M+ and mythic raids are far more alike than your alegory.
    If anything they should be compared to Futsal vs Football (or what americans understand as Soccer).
    The only real difference here being the scale and field played on.

    Much like the above example raiding and m+ require pretty much the same skillset, except that:
    - one is rather stale, limited to same set of dungeons for an entire expansion, with the only difference being a set of trash packs that change every major patch.
    - the other one requires a lot more coordination and management and introduces a whole new field to play on with every major patch.
    While you are correct to a degree you want to present it like M+ is worse or easier. Yet you totally disregard affixes to prove your point which is not fair.
    Of course raids change every patch, and dungeons stay relatively the same, but at the same time bosses don't change at all in a given raid. You can try it one week, than another, then another until everyone in your raid will learn and you will kill the boss and than farm him because he's the same every week. Raids change each patch but that's several months of exactly the same tactics. Also I don't agree that each raid is a totally new playing field because for most bosses (not every) the mechanics aren't anything new. There's a set of mechanics that repeat in different combinations with some changes and additions and you adapt tactic (once per patch) to deal with that combination of mechanics.

    In M+ the dungeons are the same but affixes rotate weekly AND seasonal affix changes every patch. If you fail +20 Waycrest Manor one week, you won't be able to just go and try again with the same setup and tactic another week or week after. Dungeons change every week, the paths are different, sometimes trash packs are different or have different skills that change easy trash to hardcore. Some weeks you have deal with hard trash and some weeks the bosses are the hardest part. The meta changes EVERY WEEK, and players have to adapt. There's also one more things - if you fail a run, you can't just repeat it, because you need a key. You either have to find someone who has the key (so you have to change your group) or you have to farm dungeons until you get that key again, so comparing to a raid, you can't just repeat where you have failed. It's not 5 minutes run to get back to boss and repeat. Because of rotating affixes the difficulty of each dungeon changes every week, so the fact that you have completed +20 KR one week won't mean that you will complete +20 KR next week with the same setup and path because it might be harder (or easier).

    I'll even take your comparison of futsal and football, yes they are more alike but you can't say which one is harder anyway. Actually futsal players tend to have better technique with the ball than football players but lack in other skills which just proves that even in the same sport category they require different skill set. Even if it would seem like they are doing the same thing (football or PvE), the emphasis is on different things, so different skills are more important.

  2. #282
    Quote Originally Posted by Soluna View Post


    You can just pug heroic raids.
    I mean, you are not wrong about that. You could also staple your foot to the ground with a nail gun or eat a dozen raw onions and drink them down with a nice little mug full of kerosene while listening to a 24/7 loop of "The girl from Ipanema".
    Thats all things you could theoretically do and all of them will leave you in a better state of health than pugging heroic raids as your main form of content.

  3. #283
    Quote Originally Posted by Volatilis View Post
    Well i care about doing world quests over and over quicker and im sure a lot of other people do so yeah
    I get your point. But I won't accept it. Because balancing at lower skill content, would be a disaster for people who treat this game more seriously and would cause more severe outcome. People expect Blizzard to be fair for everyone, it's impossible to balance the game at every possible level.

    And yes... it doesn't matter if you do WQuests quicker than other classes, why? Because you don't need that, it's not a race.
    It's like saying that every possible car should be as fast. They shouldn't! You drive what you worked for. The normal daily driving isn't a race(just as everything in WoW in lower skill content), while F1 is a race and there are hard regulations for the cars(just like mythic raiding, >2400 Arena and >M+15).

    So... If you:
    Quote Originally Posted by Volatilis View Post
    care about doing world quests over and over quicker
    Then I welcome you in the mythic raid team.

    It's like saying "I pay the same price for the gym as the people who train more than me! I should be jacked just as they are!" while not doing proper work out.
    Last edited by Eazy; 2020-09-18 at 09:02 AM.

  4. #284
    Quote Originally Posted by Eazy View Post
    I wouldn't say that HC raid is giving you more loot. The drop chances will be reduced in SL and we all know that you can spam M+ dungeon. And the whole dungeons drop list is higher than the raid one.
    More items/hr. It used to be more items/hr anyways, now it's three times more.
    I mean 10 bosses will drop 40 items for a raid. which will be 2 items per person per 3 hours. 0.66item/h for a person
    M+ will be 1 item per 30 mins (2 per hour ignoring logistics and shit) per 5 people. 0.4 item per person per hour and it will be sub hc quality too. I mean spamming would still be a problem but a ilvl decay like in Visions masks would be better rather than straight up shit loot and shit item/h with potential best trinkets being locked in raids.

  5. #285
    I raid because of the challenge. It's fun to do it as a group of 20. I don't do it because of gear. That's a bonus.

    It makes me sad to see that the ilvl of m+ is not caped at the highest ilvl available. Again I will gain nothing from m+. My only gear will come from mythic raiding (and weekly). I'm not good enough to get high ilvl from pvp, or rather, I don't have the time to practice enough (maybe I suck anyway but who knows).

    I wish I could do m+ and get the best possible gear, at least be lucky. Titanforging made it possible. 90% of the time you got nothing but now and then you actually got an upgrade. There's simply no way that will happen when raids open. Like, why? What do you gain from limiting ilvl? Why not have m+20 drop mythic raid quality? Why stop at 15 (or whatever the cap is in SL)?

    I was pumped about this expansion but the closer we come to playing it, the more disappointed I become. Let's hope it'll feel fine when actually playing it, I guess.
    Well met!
    Quote Originally Posted by Iem View Post
    Man even if Blizzard gave players bars of gold, they would complain that they were too heavy.

  6. #286
    How is high end mythic raid content only relevant? So you are going to skip everything and jump into mythic raid becouse it offers best stuff? No you wont you will first get gear from mythic+, norma and heroic raids which means they are also relevant.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Zephire View Post
    I raid because of the challenge. It's fun to do it as a group of 20. I don't do it because of gear. That's a bonus.

    It makes me sad to see that the ilvl of m+ is not caped at the highest ilvl available. Again I will gain nothing from m+. My only gear will come from mythic raiding (and weekly). I'm not good enough to get high ilvl from pvp, or rather, I don't have the time to practice enough (maybe I suck anyway but who knows).

    I wish I could do m+ and get the best possible gear, at least be lucky. Titanforging made it possible. 90% of the time you got nothing but now and then you actually got an upgrade. There's simply no way that will happen when raids open. Like, why? What do you gain from limiting ilvl? Why not have m+20 drop mythic raid quality? Why stop at 15 (or whatever the cap is in SL)?

    I was pumped about this expansion but the closer we come to playing it, the more disappointed I become. Let's hope it'll feel fine when actually playing it, I guess.
    People like you are minority. Despite people like doing mythic raid if you remove gear desire to that content would drop dramaticaly. Its whole packcage what makes people do mythic raiding and more you take away from that packcage more people will quit.

  7. #287
    Quote Originally Posted by Accendor View Post
    I mean, you are not wrong about that. You could also staple your foot to the ground with a nail gun or eat a dozen raw onions and drink them down with a nice little mug full of kerosene while listening to a 24/7 loop of "The girl from Ipanema".
    Thats all things you could theoretically do and all of them will leave you in a better state of health than pugging heroic raids as your main form of content.
    It depends, at start of 8.3 I was playing casual and I could easily pug everything heroic wise by just having high requirements. The requirements when a new tier comes out of course cannot be super high, but your requirements evolve as players gear/achieve more stuff, and it's generally easy to pug then if you are somewhat competent.

  8. #288
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    Quote Originally Posted by GringoD View Post
    People were railing against the endless progression that Artifact Power and Azerite Power brought. Some were even fear mongering that Anima Power is the new AP.
    Now that we know that it has nothing to do with player power, all of the sudden people realize that they can do stuff... but don't have to? And that's bad?
    No matter how they do it, people will complain.

    Concerning M+
    What is really changing here? M+ endgame is still waiting for the weekly chest. Which is still on par with Mythic raids. And that thing has massively improved from the current iteration.
    Normal loot being a tiny bit below heroic raids means jack shit at the end of the day. It's going to get replaced eventually.

    At least now it's worthwhile to hop into a raid with friends as a side thing. Due to M+ being farmable, heroic raids were worthless in BfA.
    It's on par with mythics if you can clear a +15, which very few people will be doing in the first few weeks. Once you get to the level where you can comfortably do so, it will then take four months to get fully geared, and that is assuming that not a single one of your options is a duplicate. In the meantime, whilst you're doing all this, your chances of actually getting loot at the end of a M+ have been obliterated.

    You're wrong in that M+ is "constantly waiting for the chest" - yes, now, at the end of the expac it is, but prior to that, M+ is a good source of gear for those who can't, or don't want to, raid. I am somewhere in the middle - I want to raid, I am perfectly capable of doing so, but can't be on at the same time every week. I would be perfectly happy with a slightly reduced ilvl if the drop rates remained the same. Instead, whilst my friends and guildies are getting regular heroic gear week after week, I will be stuck with the highest keys I can manage in the first few weeks / months (and since there are no other decent sources of gear outside of raids in SL, it could well be months), working to get to a level where I can clear +15 reliably and regularly. Once I reach that point, I then have a four month treadmill, all the while praying for no duplicates. In the meantime, my friends have been fully heroic geared for weeks and have unsubbed til the next patch.

    Blizzard needs to learn how to balance things better. If they're going to go ahead with these changes, then the scaling of keys up to 15 needs to be drastically reduced so that non-raiders can reach +15 levels sooner. Failing that, reinstate the frequency of drops and keep the reduced ilvls. There are options available which don't completely screw over those who can't raid.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Accendor View Post
    I mean, you are not wrong about that. You could also staple your foot to the ground with a nail gun or eat a dozen raw onions and drink them down with a nice little mug full of kerosene while listening to a 24/7 loop of "The girl from Ipanema".
    Thats all things you could theoretically do and all of them will leave you in a better state of health than pugging heroic raids as your main form of content.
    Finally, someone who gets it. "You can just pug heroic raids" is a very weak counter-argument given the actual odds of doing so, and I am enjoying knowing in my head that some of the posters in this thread will now be having their heads implode with these diametrically opposed arguments.
    Last edited by Mystikal; 2020-09-18 at 11:35 AM. Reason: Clarity

  9. #289
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    It's been sidelined for too long so it's good that try-hards can't even have gear equal to Heroic raiding. Raid or stay a scrub, IO-chasing kiddies.
    Paladin Bash has spoken.

  10. #290
    As a holy priest main, I am so happy to know that i will be able to get my best loot from the content I excel at, considering Holy Priest is garbage in M+, and I don't like PvP, I'm pretty happy.

  11. #291
    Why do I have a feeling there will be the following scenerio....

    Optimized 210-226 [M+] >>>>> Non Optimized 213-220 [Heroic Raid]

    All this does is nerf high end farmers (mythic raiders) and promotes mid-range players (casual norm/heroic raiders) to farm instead.

    If you thought it was painful pugging in BfA and IO. Imagine doing it without all the try hards in Shadowlands.

    There needs to be incentive for high end players to farm M+. Now there isn't.

  12. #292
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    The fewer the options the better in games. I like my games with as few options as possible. This step backwards is going to be great for WoW.

  13. #293
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    the changes to M+ loot simply means that the end of week chest becomes the focus rather than the gear you get from the end of the dungeon run. my main query is whether or not it will be possible to overgear M+; as the keys will be tuned for a certain ilvl (which one would assume would be around the ilvl of what you get from the end of the dungeon run) and therefore a fully geared heroic/mythic raider will steamroll through a 15 key

  14. #294
    Quote Originally Posted by Mystikal View Post
    It's on par with mythics if you can clear a +15, which very few people will be doing in the first few weeks. Once you get to the level where you can comfortably do so, it will then take four months to get fully geared(...)
    Do you think people clear mythic raids on the first few weeks? How long do you think mythic raiders need to fully equip?
    M+ players will take significantly less time to deck out than on live with the new chest.

    In the meantime, whilst you're doing all this, your chances of actually getting loot at the end of a M+ have been obliterated. (...) I would be perfectly happy with a slightly reduced ilvl if the drop rates remained the same. Instead, whilst my friends and guildies are getting regular heroic gear week after week, I will be stuck with the highest keys I can manage in the first few weeks / months (and since there are no other decent sources of gear outside of raids in SL, it could well be months), working to get to a level where I can clear +15 reliably and regularly. Once I reach that point, I then have a four month treadmill In the meantime, my friends have been fully heroic geared for weeks and have unsubbed til the next patch.
    Look at you poor thing, having a harder time of spamming M+ to get geared out within the first week.
    Depending on how many M+ you run, heroic raiders will take longer to deck out. Boss lockouts exist.

    (...), and that is assuming that not a single one of your options is a duplicate.(...), all the while praying for no duplicates.
    The tear-jerk talk of duplicates is disgusting when the weekly chest is so much better than what we have on live.

    Blizzard needs to learn how to balance things better. If they're going to go ahead with these changes, then the scaling of keys up to 15 needs to be drastically reduced so that non-raiders can reach +15 levels sooner. Failing that, reinstate the frequency of drops and keep the reduced ilvls. There are options available which don't completely screw over those who can't raid.
    Are you seriously begging for handouts? Blizz needs to provide you with your free mythic level loot?
    Last edited by GringoD; 2020-09-18 at 01:05 PM.

  15. #295
    Quote Originally Posted by callipygoustp View Post
    The fewer the options the better in games. I like my games with as few options as possible. This step backwards is going to be great for WoW.
    Arguably its true though you mean to be sarcastic. Having a linear progression path would benefit far more players then the current method of simply adding difficulty modes to the game.

    It might also clamp down on this weird mentality of "because I do A for twenty hours I deserve the rewards of doing B"

  16. #296
    Quote Originally Posted by Volatilis View Post
    sure if you ignore "Because that's the place where it matters the most. Who cares if you kill mobs on the WQuests 0,5-2 seconds faster than other classes? Who cares if you one-shot people at 1400 rating that have no idea how to counter your combo? Who cares if you finish +3 with "3 drops"?

    No one."

    No one cares about ilvl for world quests is what hes implying and a lot of people that want to dictate how the game is played because they need to feel shiny and new with their mythic gear think this way. Never mind if it leads to bad decisions for the entire playerbase like the reduction in m+ loot because they whined about being forced to grind it. I mean come on. That is an actual example of no one forcing you do that but your self.

    Well i care about doing world quests over and over quicker and im sure a lot of other people do so yeah
    I think you're being naive if you think the M+ change really has anything to do with catering to mythic raiders.

    Reminds me of people blaming raids in WoD for the lack of outdoor content when blizzard made the decision to funnel the entirety of the outdoor world content through the garrison mission table at a time when idle games were trending.

    There's a reason why there has historically been loot lockouts on higher end loot since the games inception. Allowing people to infinitely grind high ilvl loot is a recent thing and this change doesn't do anything to stop that. It just makes it take longer, meaning the people you're talking about will have to grind more to achieve the same result. Which they'll do.
    ..and so he left, with terrible power in shaking hands.

  17. #297
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    Quote Originally Posted by GringoD View Post
    Are you seriously begging for handouts? Blizz needs to provide you with your free mythic level loot?
    No, can you not read? I am asking for a compromise other than making non-raiders face a 6 month treadmill to gear up every patch cycle. No, of course heroic and mythic raiders will not be clearing entire raids in week 1 of release, but they will be clearing several bosses each week and getting immediate rewards in terms of items received. On the other side, those who don't raid will realistically get 1 piece of loot per week from their chest, which they have to wait until the reset to actually obtain. Raiders will have access to both. Don't you think that's just a little too punishing for the non-raiders? I am suggesting a compromise of current rate of gear drops at reduced ilvls, which doesn't invalidate either game mode.

    Also, regarding duplicates, it will not feel great to ever get them and, when you only really have a choice of 1 option in your chest if you don't raid (because your extra choices in your chest if you solely run M+ will all be lower ilvl than your highest key cleared, unless you clear about 15 keys per week), you are running into an increased chance of getting dupes... especially since, if you don't raid, there are no other sources of gear upgrades in the week.

  18. #298
    Quote Originally Posted by Delever View Post
    HOW IS IT DIFFERENT FROM NOW??????
    Like now if you spam it you get HEROIC ilvl gear. In SL you ll get ONLY 3 ilvls bellow.
    in BOTH SL and BfA you only get mythic raid gear lvl from the weekly chest.
    How did they ruin your precious structure? You ll be getting mythic gear from +15 just like before and you ll have even more choices now if you do more M+s
    Did they not nerf the amount of items dropped to 1 item per dungeon as well? Combined with a lower ilvl makes overgearing the raid pretty much impossible, which in todays world is the only way to clear heroic with a pug that doesn't involve a lot of facepalming on my side.

    The change to the weekly cache is definitely great, but it will now also mean I have to do 10 dungeons to gey 3 choices, and those dungeons will give a total of 10 pieces of loot distributed to most likely 45 unique players? (assuming 100% new pugs + me) Now that smells like a lot of disappointments!

  19. #299
    Quote Originally Posted by Mystikal View Post
    No, can you not read? I am asking for a compromise other than making non-raiders face a 6 month treadmill to gear up every patch cycle. No, of course heroic and mythic raiders will not be clearing entire raids in week 1 of release, but they will be clearing several bosses each week and getting immediate rewards in terms of items received. On the other side, those who don't raid will realistically get 1 piece of loot per week from their chest, which they have to wait until the reset to actually obtain. Raiders will have access to both. Don't you think that's just a little too punishing for the non-raiders? I am suggesting a compromise of current rate of gear drops at reduced ilvls, which doesn't invalidate either game mode.

    Also, regarding duplicates, it will not feel great to ever get them and, when you only really have a choice of 1 option in your chest if you don't raid (because your extra choices in your chest if you solely run M+ will all be lower ilvl than your highest key cleared, unless you clear about 15 keys per week), you are running into an increased chance of getting dupes... especially since, if you don't raid, there are no other sources of gear upgrades in the week.
    Honestly I think its not healthy that they're rewarding people with mythic level loot from the chest without having to do anything near mythic level content.

    At the same time I also think if they really want M+ to be a alternative progression path for players who don't want to raid then they need to support it better than what they're doing and give mythic quality loot for completing comparable challenges. Like if someones timing dungeons in the twenties I see no reason they shouldn't be getting mythic ilvl rewards.

    BUT!! being able to infinitely grind loot in M+ is a massive problem if we want M+ to be a alternative progression path, since other forms of high end content are all on loot lockouts (with good reason).

    Brainstorming a bit I think horrific visions reward structure seems like a fairly good candidate for modeling what M+ could look like. You can keep getting loot for each difficulty of visions you're doing, up to that cap, and if you keep doing it you can get the lower tiers of loot below that. Much like how you can clear a raid on each difficulty. I think you take that idea and adjust it a bit for M+. You can get higher ilvls as you go up just like currently but make them more appropriate for the M+ levels challenge, make the lockouts based on how high you're pushing, and then figure out how often it pays out how much loot so that its comparable for the 5 people as it is in raid for say 20 people in raid for a comparable amount of time investment and challenge.

    And imo it should keep rewarding loot as long as you're managing to continue to push higher. So if you're pushing M+ and say your group is very good and you manage to push a +20 this week you get a chance to get loot along the way. And if you push past that next week and manage a +22 you're getting another piece. And keep those pieces rolling, if a group manages to complete a +30 they should still get a chance at rewards as that is an appropriate achievement.

    BUT! you also take the weekly chest reward down to the same ilvl as the content you're completing as opposed to above it. Especially because its now giving you a choice of a single piece out of potentially 9 options without a chance for duplicates which makes it waaaay too efficient for gearing. If you're completing heroic raids it should be dropping heroic equivalent loot, and if you're doing mythic raids it should drop mythic equivalent loot... likewise if you're doing a +15 it should probably be dropping around heroic ilvl loot, but if you're doing a say (arbitrary number) 20+ it should be dropping mythic ilvl loot.

    *Maybe* it drops a few item levels higher to keep it exciting, but not a complete tier up like it currently does. They could also do something like give it its own unique loot in the pool, so that there is that sort of "titanforge / legendary" potential moment with something rare but it doesn't necessarily have to be outright power. It could just be an equivalent item with a unique model, or have a unique visual effect, or have some kind of small QoL attached to it, etc etc etc.

    iono, that was a long ramble.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gigantique View Post
    Did they not nerf the amount of items dropped to 1 item per dungeon as well? Combined with a lower ilvl makes overgearing the raid pretty much impossible, which in todays world is the only way to clear heroic with a pug that doesn't involve a lot of facepalming on my side.
    Frankly that's a good thing, as the current status quo is horrible for pacing. The path of least resistance should not be doing trivial content until you're geared up enough to over gear content. That's not healthy for the game.

    The change to the weekly cache is definitely great, but it will now also mean I have to do 10 dungeons to gey 3 choices, and those dungeons will give a total of 10 pieces of loot distributed to most likely 45 unique players? (assuming 100% new pugs + me) Now that smells like a lot of disappointments!
    The total number of potential players is pretty moot here.

    What's important is that an individual player doing 10 dungeons has 10 chances at loot + 1 guaranteed piece out of 3 choices from the chest. That sounds fine to me.
    ..and so he left, with terrible power in shaking hands.

  20. #300
    That’s a good thing. Mythic+ shouldn’t be equal to raiding mythic. Maybe a notch below it between heroic raid and mythic, but not equal to raiding mythic.

    Mythic raiding should always be the top source of the best gear in the game until there is a harder version

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