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  1. #301
    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    arent you forgeting titanforging?
    So only mythic+ loot titanforged?

    Also, would you "want" titanforging back?

  2. #302
    sounds promising ... I stopped raiding cause I don't like m+ and started to fall behind in ilvl and didn't feel like dealing with constant nagging I need to be running M+. I also only care to clear HC these days mythic raiding doesn't interest me either.
    Member: Shadow Lands Alpha Club, Member since 4/9/2020

  3. #303
    Quote Originally Posted by Argorwal View Post
    So only mythic+ loot titanforged?

    Also, would you "want" titanforging back?
    no, but bcs it could titanforge it was not "capped" at HC level, it could go higher... if there was a way to improve gear from M+ in shadowlands i wouldnt mind if the "base" level was capped...
    i actualy liked titanforging, they should cap it based on source (HC gear only could getting slightly below mythic not above it for example) rather than remove it

  4. #304
    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    i actualy liked titanforging, they should cap it based on source (HC gear only could getting slightly below mythic not above it for example) rather than remove it
    I liked thunder / warforge when it was only 6 ilvls. That kept the loot exciting for longer but it was still possible to get BiS and you didn't have an infinite grind.
    ..and so he left, with terrible power in shaking hands.

  5. #305
    Quote Originally Posted by Baconeggcheese View Post
    I liked thunder / warforge when it was only 6 ilvls. That kept the loot exciting for longer but it was still possible to get BiS and you didn't have an infinite grind.
    Nope you didn't. +6/+10 is irrelevant. The minimum cap on gear that actually does something is +15 because of math.
    +15 is equal to 0.7-1.5% dps increase. And since, you know, one percent is barely noticable and way below the range of actual RNG it barely works.

    TF should be like in BfA (severly nerfed chance vs legion) but capped at +15. Anything below and that system just doesn't work.

  6. #306
    Immortal callipygoustp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whiskeyjac View Post
    Arguably its true though you mean to be sarcastic. Having a linear progression path would benefit far more players then the current method of simply adding difficulty modes to the game.

    It might also clamp down on this weird mentality of "because I do A for twenty hours I deserve the rewards of doing B"
    Convincing argument for "less is more".

  7. #307
    Now casuals can enjoy their dogshit covenant "MeAnInGfUl cHoIcE" bullshit in their dogshit below heroic ilvl gear.
    What? You don't need power, this damn min-maxers are bad and toxic, remember? You don't need ez loot now, when you have your RPG flavour OMEGALUL.

  8. #308
    good change, m+ is a plague on this game

  9. #309
    Quote Originally Posted by dmitriy138 View Post
    there's a reason game is dead, there's a reason classic has more players. Try again.
    I must use different Classic:


  10. #310
    Elemental Lord GreenJesus's Avatar
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    Enough of the required dailies, islands, and other bullshit. Also, mythic+ rewards getting nerfed has been a long time coming. Thank god they finally had the courage to do it. A mode that is infinitely farmable and has a much larger loot pool to be able to find the right stat combination you need shouldn't be stronger than raiding which is stuck on a weekly lockout and requires more players to put together.

    Do mythic+ because it's enjoyable to you to push your IO score or something, not because you feel compelled to run it infinitely for power. The fact you felt compelled to farm it for character power shows why Blizzard was right to nerf it.

    The game was better when character power had a weekly cap. Honor cap, conquest cap, valor cap, weekly raid lockouts, heroic dungeon lockout etc. You are finished with your character's lockouts? Great. Play a different character. Ever since legion I barely ever played an alt because I felt like my main could still progress and it was a waste of time to play an alt when I could be progressing my main.
    Last edited by GreenJesus; 2020-09-18 at 06:22 PM.

  11. #311
    Quote Originally Posted by Accendor View Post
    honest question, please let's discuss this without hate.

    from what i have heard and seen on the beta only renown (~1h/week) and Torghast (also ~1h per week) offer Character progression.

    In addition to that we just learned that m+ gear will be before heroic raid gear.

    this means that if you raid mythic, your are done with all your weekly stuff in 2-3h (depending if you choose to do 1 m+ for the cache).

    ofc you could also do more m+ for more item selection, but this is very, very inefficient. still posdible tho.

    i understand many people like this, because they are free to do other things ingame now. my personal problem here is, that I am actually only really interested in things that offer Character progression and those are now heavily timegated.

    do i miss something? is there really nothing to do at max level besides the things I listed? would be a shame if this becomes a raidlogging expansion.
    You kind of made the point for blizzard. If you don't enjoy spamming M+ then you have no character power incentives that make you feel obligated to do it. If you do enjoy spamming M+ your incentive is that it's enjoyable...

  12. #312
    Legendary! TEHPALLYTANK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mystikal View Post
    No, can you not read? I am asking for a compromise other than making non-raiders face a 6 month treadmill to gear up every patch cycle. No, of course heroic and mythic raiders will not be clearing entire raids in week 1 of release, but they will be clearing several bosses each week and getting immediate rewards in terms of items received. On the other side, those who don't raid will realistically get 1 piece of loot per week from their chest, which they have to wait until the reset to actually obtain. Raiders will have access to both. Don't you think that's just a little too punishing for the non-raiders? I am suggesting a compromise of current rate of gear drops at reduced ilvls, which doesn't invalidate either game mode.

    Also, regarding duplicates, it will not feel great to ever get them and, when you only really have a choice of 1 option in your chest if you don't raid (because your extra choices in your chest if you solely run M+ will all be lower ilvl than your highest key cleared, unless you clear about 15 keys per week), you are running into an increased chance of getting dupes... especially since, if you don't raid, there are no other sources of gear upgrades in the week.
    It won't be a 6-month treadmill, 3 items@226 per week=18 items in 6 weeks. Even if you take duplicates into account, that still puts it anywhere from 6-9 weeks unless you happen to just have shit RNG, in which case it might be as many as 10-16 weeks (with 16 weeks being an fairly extreme outlier).

    If you aren't willing to put in the time and effort to get more than 1 item out of your weekly chest, that is on you for choosing to not do the content. You only need one +14 key per week to get a 226 item, 4@+14 for the second item. If you aren't willing to run 10/4 M+14 a week you probably don't enjoy the content, or you enjoy the content but you aren't good enough to clear 10/4 M+14 keys per week. If it is the latter then you're basically just complaining that your not getting as many rewards as people who are better at playing the game than you are.


    Realistically, the only people not getting more than 1 piece of loot per week aren't spending much time and effort towards getting any gear.

    Edit: Fuck me, I had a major misunderstanding of how the weekly cache functioned. I thought you could get 3 up to items out of it per week. I have since learned it is only 1 item per week, regardless of which type of content you do. The unlocks are to expand the item pool and determine the ilvl of the items offered. I left the final sentence alone before my edit out of the strikethrough because it remains true. That being said, I expect them to tune M+ around the loot ilvl rewarded by M+ dungeons.

    Mythic raiding will benefit slightly from the weekly cache, it'll be the only source of Mythic raid ilvl gear for players that exclusively play M+.
    Last edited by TEHPALLYTANK; 2020-09-19 at 12:53 AM.
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  13. #313
    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    Nope you didn't. +6/+10 is irrelevant. The minimum cap on gear that actually does something is +15 because of math.
    +15 is equal to 0.7-1.5% dps increase. And since, you know, one percent is barely noticable and way below the range of actual RNG it barely works.

    TF should be like in BfA (severly nerfed chance vs legion) but capped at +15. Anything below and that system just doesn't work.
    well thank god i have you to tell me what I LIKE... did i say it incresed my dps by a crapload? no, i said i liked it... you might not know this but its possible to like something thats not massively beneficial to you...

  14. #314
    Quote Originally Posted by iperson View Post
    You kind of made the point for blizzard. If you don't enjoy spamming M+ then you have no character power incentives that make you feel obligated to do it. If you do enjoy spamming M+ your incentive is that it's enjoyable...
    Once again: No, that is a false conclusion.

    A specific kind of content can be way more enjoyable, when you get rewarded for it. The reward is a part of the experience.

  15. #315
    Dreadlord arr0gance's Avatar
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    With the broader selection of gear from the M+ weekly box, it'll actually be faster to gear a toon in SL w/ max ilvl Mythic-quality gear than it is relative to BfA (because you have a higher chance of getting a duplicate piece in BfA). The biggest change with the introduction of this new system is that players who grind exclusively M+ will be significantly further behind raiders for the first few lockouts. This will likely mean that most M+ key pushers, especially early on, will feel compelled to raid (even if it isn't content they enjoy).

    Personally, I don't know why Blizzard thinks that gearing from a fucking weekly box is a good idea, but that looks to be the meta for at least the first season. Time will tell how it pans out throughout the expansion.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by dmitriy138 View Post
    there's a reason game is dead, there's a reason classic has more players. Try again.

    I have had to take breaks from old WoW because I didn't have time to dedicate to raids, doesn't mean ill force my trash ideology for an mmorpg of raids not being the best for gearing.

    Wasn't even planning on coming back to shadowlands but after seeing some of these changes it's tempting. Quit the game if you don't like it.
    Your entire ass-backwards argument is based on unknowable information. Try again.
    "Brevity is the sole of wit." -Abraham Lincoln, 1892

  16. #316
    I don't get when people say back to raiding or die. Since when was this different? The game or rather all video games have always rewarded the best from the most difficult content. It's literally people trying to push for a narrative change. But it's not gamers that are pushing for the change, it's a new type of gamer definitely not in the majority. As far as I know most people enjoy video games for the fun challenges they provide or in MMORPG cases they enjoy progressing their character. Raiding in general is fun not for the loot but when people mostly think back on it it was the experience they had overcoming challenges, sometimes they were personal, but most of the time they were because they overcame challenges with friends they met along the way. A lot of people don't realize this until years pass. But I find more and more that those people who played games for loot actually enjoyed overcoming challenges with friends and the relationships built along the way. Even asmongold who notoriously puts himself up as a loot focused player says that his most fun moments were with the people he shared those moments with.

  17. #317
    Quote Originally Posted by Dylamoo View Post
    I don't get when people say back to raiding or die. Since when was this different? The game or rather all video games have always rewarded the best from the most difficult content. It's literally people trying to push for a narrative change. But it's not gamers that are pushing for the change, it's a new type of gamer definitely not in the majority. As far as I know most people enjoy video games for the fun challenges they provide or in MMORPG cases they enjoy progressing their character. Raiding in general is fun not for the loot but when people mostly think back on it it was the experience they had overcoming challenges, sometimes they were personal, but most of the time they were because they overcame challenges with friends they met along the way. A lot of people don't realize this until years pass. But I find more and more that those people who played games for loot actually enjoyed overcoming challenges with friends and the relationships built along the way. Even asmongold who notoriously puts himself up as a loot focused player says that his most fun moments were with the people he shared those moments with.
    I suspect most of the people talking about the return of 'raid or die' are people who joined during BfA/Legion and don't actually know that 'Raid or die' comes from a time when there was literally not any content outside of raids. These days with WQ's and M+ that is far from the case.
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

  18. #318
    Quote Originally Posted by Gigantique View Post
    Did they not nerf the amount of items dropped to 1 item per dungeon as well? Combined with a lower ilvl makes overgearing the raid pretty much impossible, which in todays world is the only way to clear heroic with a pug that doesn't involve a lot of facepalming on my side.

    The change to the weekly cache is definitely great, but it will now also mean I have to do 10 dungeons to gey 3 choices, and those dungeons will give a total of 10 pieces of loot distributed to most likely 45 unique players? (assuming 100% new pugs + me) Now that smells like a lot of disappointments!
    Less gear dropped but now without titanforging once you get the gear it is what it is.

  19. #319
    Quote Originally Posted by callipygoustp View Post
    Convincing argument for "less is more".
    Sometimes less is more... Having ten thousand spells for every class would appeal to some people but at the end of the day the average player would only use maybe 10 of the "best".

    I don't really understand what appeal there is to having dozens of choices or dozens of paths when moving towards a unified end goal. I think one of wow's major problems is that its playerbase is envious of others to the extremes. It isn't enough to excel at your chosen content... instead everything that doesn't offer the most powerful reward is looked at by scorn even by those who proclaim they have no desire to do the harder content.

    You can't have your cake and eat it to.

  20. #320
    Quote Originally Posted by Gorsameth View Post
    I suspect most of the people talking about the return of 'raid or die' are people who joined during BfA/Legion and don't actually know that 'Raid or die' comes from a time when there was literally not any content outside of raids. These days with WQ's and M+ that is far from the case.
    also, people have to make up their minds. when they add things that are "necessary", people complain. when they remove rewards from something people complain "why should i bother with it, it doesnt give you anything".

    it cant be both. good thing torghast gives legendary mats, or nobody would bother with it.

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