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  1. #321
    Quote Originally Posted by dcc626 View Post
    also, people have to make up their minds. when they add things that are "necessary", people complain. when they remove rewards from something people complain "why should i bother with it, it doesnt give you anything".

    it cant be both. good thing torghast gives legendary mats, or nobody would bother with it.
    Isn't that the same argument?
    Raiders and casual players don't want rewards that off substantial power or power only available from that location to come from grindy boring content.
    Poorly skilled players and hardcores want rewards to come from grindy and dull content so they have access to them. All of wow's drama can mostly be boiled down as a tug of war between those groups with dozens of sub factions.

  2. #322
    Quote Originally Posted by Accendor View Post
    Once again: No, that is a false conclusion.

    A specific kind of content can be way more enjoyable, when you get rewarded for it. The reward is a part of the experience.
    There is still a reward. If you enjoy M+ then it should be enough. If you were spamming M+ for gear, then now you don't have to. Gear inflation in BFA was out of control and blizz obviously thought so as well. It's a good change.

  3. #323
    Quote Originally Posted by GreenJesus View Post
    Enough of the required dailies, islands, and other bullshit. Also, mythic+ rewards getting nerfed has been a long time coming. Thank god they finally had the courage to do it. A mode that is infinitely farmable and has a much larger loot pool to be able to find the right stat combination you need shouldn't be stronger than raiding which is stuck on a weekly lockout and requires more players to put together.

    Do mythic+ because it's enjoyable to you to push your IO score or something, not because you feel compelled to run it infinitely for power. The fact you felt compelled to farm it for character power shows why Blizzard was right to nerf it.

    The game was better when character power had a weekly cap. Honor cap, conquest cap, valor cap, weekly raid lockouts, heroic dungeon lockout etc. You are finished with your character's lockouts? Great. Play a different character. Ever since legion I barely ever played an alt because I felt like my main could still progress and it was a waste of time to play an alt when I could be progressing my main.
    To me, thats ^ the comment that makes the most sense in this thread.

    I do think though that Mythic+ should give gear equal to Raiding through the Great Vault weekly chest.

  4. #324
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    Quote Originally Posted by TEHPALLYTANK View Post
    It won't be a 6-month treadmill, 3 items@226 per week=18 items in 6 weeks. Even if you take duplicates into account, that still puts it anywhere from 6-9 weeks unless you happen to just have shit RNG, in which case it might be as many as 10-16 weeks (with 16 weeks being an fairly extreme outlier).
    That will only be the case if you're clearing about 13 keys each week and doing so from week 1 (not going to happen for the vast majority), because of the way the extra choices calculate their item level based on keys cleared. Your first choice is always your highest key cleared (yay!), but after that, it's your 4th highest run and then your 10th highest run. No-one in the first few weeks will be jumping straight up to a +15, because everyone will have to start out with their base keys from M0. In order to be able to start straight at +15 the following week, you must have cleared a +16 in week 1 - again, not going to happen for anyone except the very, very best. So, realistically, to get 3 choices of 226 items the following week, you are looking at 7-8 runs to climb to a +15 key, and then a further 9 clears of +15 to make all the choices 226 ilvl. This is not a very likely scenario for most players.

    Even if you decide you're only going to go for 2 choices in your chest, there are the keys that you must successfully clear to raise your key level to +15, and you must then clear a further 3 +15 keys to get the 2nd choice to 226 ilvl. That is still a huge time investment.

    Now, since somebody like myself won't have any heroic raiding gear to help me, I will be trying to do all of the above with WQ rewards, essentially, since my odds of getting any loot from the M+ clears themselves are now very small. Yes, I might pick up an item or two from the clears, but it won't be many. Meanwhile, my guildies will be getting loot regularly from their clears of the heroic raid - content I am capable of doing, but not at the same time every week. It has never taken them more than 3 resets to start comfortably clearing heroic, so let's set that as the benchmark. After 3 weeks, they are starting to get more and more gear from heroic raids, which in turn gives them a higher ilvl and more power, and increases their chances of clearing to a higher key and starting from an increased key level next reset. In addition, it hardly matters if they get nothing from the actual clear of the key itself, because they're already in higher level gear. Win-win, for them.

    I, on the other hand, have no means of getting the gear required other than running M+ again, and again, and again, and AGAIN... all in the vain hope that I might actually get a drop. Once I have reached the point at which I can comfortably clear +15 keys, that is when my gearing actually STARTS.

    I am more than capable of actually doing the content, but skill will only take you so far. At some point, you need the actual raw stats that gear gives you in order to push out the required dps / healing / mitigation that higher keys require. Heroic & mythic raiders, after a few resets, will come in with a massive power advantage and will be clearing those +15s earlier, and also not have to worry about doing more than the actual number of runs required, as the gear that drops from the completed runs will be of little to no use to them. Anyone not fortunate enough to be able to raid will have to spam M+ endlessly to increase their ilvl, and the drop rates have been neutered.

    The whole thing is set up so that the gearing up process for raiders is vastly shortened, and vastly increased for M+ runners.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GreenJesus View Post
    Enough of the required dailies, islands, and other bullshit. Also, mythic+ rewards getting nerfed has been a long time coming. Thank god they finally had the courage to do it. A mode that is infinitely farmable and has a much larger loot pool to be able to find the right stat combination you need shouldn't be stronger than raiding which is stuck on a weekly lockout and requires more players to put together.

    Do mythic+ because it's enjoyable to you to push your IO score or something, not because you feel compelled to run it infinitely for power. The fact you felt compelled to farm it for character power shows why Blizzard was right to nerf it.
    In your scenario above, for someone like me, who cannot raid with my guild every week, my "off weeks" will be done in 5 minutes. Log on, do my Torghast legendary materials run, then ensure I log on 3 times during the 7 day week to keep up with my Callings, then log off. None of what I have done has increased my character's power nor has it given me any gear. Sounds thrilling.

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    Quote Originally Posted by arr0gance View Post
    The biggest change with the introduction of this new system is that players who grind exclusively M+ will be significantly further behind raiders for the first few lockouts. This will likely mean that most M+ key pushers, especially early on, will feel compelled to raid (even if it isn't content they enjoy).
    They won't though, on both counts. The raiders will be getting gear with far more regularity than the M+ runners since the M+ clears themselves virtually do not reward gear (except for 1 lucky individual), and if they weren't running raids before, giving them a gear drought isn't going to suddenly make them start. It's far more likely that they'll just quit entirely and unsub - not good for Blizzard.

  5. #325
    At the highest level - yes. I think it's a good change. I like that loot scarcity will be back in the game. Items will feel more rewarding

    Having spammable content like M+ just dish out items like crazy is bad for the health of the game. I love M+ but it breaks the reward loop

  6. #326
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mystikal View Post
    They won't though, on both counts. The raiders will be getting gear with far more regularity than the M+ runners since the M+ clears themselves virtually do not reward gear (except for 1 lucky individual), and if they weren't running raids before, giving them a gear drought isn't going to suddenly make them start. It's far more likely that they'll just quit entirely and unsub - not good for Blizzard.
    With the new system rewarding Mythic raid quality loot in the weekly box it definitely stands to reason that they intend people who play M+ exclusively to gear up almost entirely from the weekly box. They don't want you running M+ ad infinitum to gear your toon like you could in Legion/BfA. It's a bit of a change in design philosophy and I don't necessarily agree with it but this idea that loot will somehow be more scarce for M+ players is a bit of a myth since you'll likely be completely decked in about 2 months. Raiding will still generally be a bit faster, especially at the beginning, but this is the new meta Blizzard wants to try out and we're powerless to stop them.
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  7. #327
    Quote Originally Posted by burek View Post
    It seems so, yes. Back to raid or die.
    Good - The rest of the theme park is made for the non hardcores. People need to stop attacking the few areas the hardcores have left.

    Sorry M+ people, Repetitive dungeon grinds aren't hardcore, they never were.

  8. #328
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    Quote Originally Posted by arr0gance View Post
    With the new system rewarding Mythic raid quality loot in the weekly box it definitely stands to reason that they intend people who play M+ exclusively to gear up almost entirely from the weekly box. They don't want you running M+ ad infinitum to gear your toon like you could in Legion/BfA. It's a bit of a change in design philosophy and I don't necessarily agree with it but this idea that loot will somehow be more scarce for M+ players is a bit of a myth since you'll likely be completely decked in about 2 months. Raiding will still generally be a bit faster, especially at the beginning, but this is the new meta Blizzard wants to try out and we're powerless to stop them.
    I ask this genuinely, but can you explain how you have come to that conclusion? Because, in my mind, it seems to be based off the assumption that anyone running M+ exclusively is going to jump in week 1 and be clearing multiple +15s from the get-go. This isn't very likely. Your "decked out in 2 months" assumption seems to be based on getting two 226 pieces in your chest every week with no duplicates, but you don't seem to be taking into account the journey to actually get there. If you're raiding, you have an extra avenue of superior items, and that's fine with me. What isn't fine, is that you could realistically go weeks at a time getting nothing from M+ clears. Until you do, you're not pushing higher than your levelling / WQ items will allow you to do. There are no other means of overcoming that in SL, except raiding. The tables have turned too far the other way.

  9. #329
    Ion and co see WoW solely as an oversized lobby for instanced boss fights rather than an MMO.

    People who want raids to be the one and only be-all-end-all of the game can go play classic and let the rest of the players enjoy a game that's grown over 16 years.

  10. #330
    The chest still gives the same gear as Mythic raid, and will require like 30 minutes of effort once a week.
    If anything, the chest = all other content not relevant.
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  11. #331
    Quote Originally Posted by Bennett View Post
    This is a good thing

    There is a plethora of optional content for you at max level - but seemingly not anywhere near as much content required of you versus BFA or even Legion
    It's already better than WoD because of the existence of m+ (which still gives a mythic quality item per week and you'll maybe wanna farm multiple keys for a bigger loot pool), not to mention the optional content. The extent of optional content in WoD was rep farms and apexis dailies - both of which were completely pointless and unfun

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    So when the game was at its peak then
    you think the game is better with raids being the only way to get meaningful gear is good? Raids are not harder than m+ the hardest part is keeping a functioning team of 20 to show up regularly.

    Raid, M+ and PvP should all have gear that only works in their respective field, that would have been a better fix. You'll see a lot more drop off because of that
    Night Elves NEED long hair to the ground and more elegant/regal beautiful options to show their Highbourne heritage

  12. #332
    M+ still drops loot, just at a lower Ilvl and rate, but it still gives you a weekly cache, now with multiple items to choose from, of Mythic Raid quality if you do a +15.

    I really don't get this "Everything but Mythic Raids are pointless" attitudes. The vast majority of players won't even clear 3x Mythic bosses (for a Vault item), let alone clear the Raid entirely.

    Anyone who pushes keys now in BFA are not decked out in 465 end of dungeon drops... the sky is not falling.

  13. #333
    Quote Originally Posted by NatePsy View Post
    It's funny, they sat there touting that it was alternative content to raiding but then went ahead and made the ilvl shit. I was fine with one piece per run but this change seems excessive, especially if it's gear before Heroic, at a 15+ mind you.
    We can only hope it will be hot fixed before release, but that might be optimistic.
    Should go...
    dungeons>H dungeons>LFR>Normal raids>Mythic Dungeon(15>)*=Heroic Raid>Mythic dungeon(15<)*=Mythic Raid.

    *Mythic dungeons should scale based on their +n, rather than brackets.

    Mythic+ has become a big part of the wow community, arguably bigger than arena. Really sucks to see it be gutted as a viable gear source.
    If curiosity killed the cat, why can't speculation kill you?

  14. #334
    A +15 equals heroic

    A +15 vault reward is mythic

    A heroic raider can guarantee mythic level loot weekly.....who’s bitching??

    Mythic+ players still gear through the weekly cache

  15. #335
    this change with item levels is so great
    you knwow hat would be amazing
    if they go into next tier
    heroic should be 226, and mythic is 7 ilvls higher (the new bracket they are using instead of 15)
    and m15 will give 223, therefore heroic guilds might actually have incentive to do some tier 1 mythic content post patch
    kind of like how LK was

  16. #336
    Hope they just slap some sort of scaling on the M+ items. They can scale to 400 as long as the wearer is in an M+. This should shut the damned topic up. The moment they hit world content, or raid, it scales down to being heroic equiv... all issues solved.

    If the M+ exclusive players what the biggest and best to push higher then this solves it while keeping them comparative on gear if going into other content.

  17. #337
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dakara View Post
    M+ still drops loot, just at a lower Ilvl and rate, but it still gives you a weekly cache, now with multiple items to choose from, of Mythic Raid quality if you do a +15.
    Only if you clear a minimum of 4 (for 2) or 10 (for 3) +15 keys each week. That will not become a regular thing for a few resets at least (except for the very best players), and with the vastly reduced drop rate in M+ themselves, the wait will be even longer for non-raiders. That's not a problem in and of itself, but the wait is TOO long, if you're not raiding.

    Honestly, it seems like all the people who are in favour of this change think that one +15 clear gets you a choice of three 226 items at reset, and/or that +15s are so faceroll that everyone will be clearing them in quest greens in the first week.

  18. #338
    Quote Originally Posted by Orwell7 View Post
    Then you're not "playing" this game for gameplay, you play it because it triggered fake dopamine releases in your brain.
    Don't go near casinos, please, it seems like you could easily hook on these artificial addicting things :-\
    There are a fair few people who genuinely don't give two shits about, for lack of a better term "visual sensory stimulation". I don't give two shits about a fancy mount, some random pet, a cool transmog or what have you, my character could be a grey uniform blob for all I care.

    What I do care about is that blob getting stronger.

  19. #339
    Quote Originally Posted by Pigy2 View Post
    What I do care about is that blob getting stronger.
    And you will... People are acting like they MUST get the BEST gear in the game to get stronger... No, you will replace leveling gear and get stronger, then you will get cache and get even stronger. It will just be slower and rightfully so.

  20. #340
    Quote Originally Posted by Pigy2 View Post
    There are a fair few people who genuinely don't give two shits about, for lack of a better term "visual sensory stimulation". I don't give two shits about a fancy mount, some random pet, a cool transmog or what have you, my character could be a grey uniform blob for all I care.

    What I do care about is that blob getting stronger.
    Well it still will. Something I never understood about WoW's community is how anything other then the most power gear imaginable is instantly considered rubbish.

    I am on the fence myself about the mythic plus change. On one hand 15 was far to easy for its rewards but on the other a better option would of been to raise heroic rewards from it to 20 then move the cap for the chest to 25 something that better reflects its difficulty barring extremely problematic weeks.

    Either way it seems a throw back to making mythic+ into what heroic dungeon gear used to be back in the day. A starting set for raiding with a single raid piece from a weekly.

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