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  1. #341
    Quote Originally Posted by Mystikal View Post
    Only if you clear a minimum of 4 (for 2) or 10 (for 3) +15 keys each week. That will not become a regular thing for a few resets at least (except for the very best players), and with the vastly reduced drop rate in M+ themselves, the wait will be even longer for non-raiders. That's not a problem in and of itself, but the wait is TOO long, if you're not raiding.

    Honestly, it seems like all the people who are in favour of this change think that one +15 clear gets you a choice of three 226 items at reset, and/or that +15s are so faceroll that everyone will be clearing them in quest greens in the first week.
    If you're only doing a single +15 because it's the start of the season, then your single Cache item is almost guaranteed to be an upgrade along with the end of Dungeon loot... however, while a "M+ only" player might only clear a single +15, they will no doubt be running enough dungeons for more Vault options, just not at a +15 level.

    Of course no one will be clearing 15's in Greens. They wont be clearing raids in greens either. If you're in Greens, then a M0 will be dropping upgrades. Do people honestly expect to replace quest greens with the Seasonal Ilvl Cap drops in the first week?

    As a Heroic raider, I went into 8.3 ~440 Ilvl from M+ gear. Heroic EP dropped 430ilvl which was equivalent to a M0 in 8.3. Within the first week of the season, guildies and I were spamming 3 chest +8's for 460 gear, the same as Heroic Ny'alotha. By the end of the week, we were pushing higher to get the best cache possible.

    The fact is, at the start of a Season, even if you're BiS from the previous, you'll get upgrades from very low keys, let alone the weekly cache.

    Outside of Mythic Raiders, (the top 1% or so), very few guilds are clearing the Raid on Heroic in the first week. And even if they are, there's a weekly lockout. Again, my guildies and I spammed +8's in 8.3 and almost outgeared the Raid (Heroic) in the first week.

    M+ Gearing needed to be brought into heel.

    Quote Originally Posted by Whiskeyjac View Post
    Well it still will. Something I never understood about WoW's community is how anything other then the most power gear imaginable is instantly considered rubbish.

    I am on the fence myself about the mythic plus change. On one hand 15 was far to easy for its rewards but on the other a better option would of been to raise heroic rewards from it to 20 then move the cap for the chest to 25 something that better reflects its difficulty barring extremely problematic weeks.

    Either way it seems a throw back to making mythic+ into what heroic dungeon gear used to be back in the day. A starting set for raiding with a single raid piece from a weekly.
    In theory, moving the rewards cap to +20-25 makes sense. In reality however, like PvP, M+ will never be balanced. There are simply too many class/specs to accomplish that in such small content.

    Right now, with gear scaling and an expansions worth of knowledge, we're seeing some players push higher and higher keys... but the class(spec) representation as you get above +20, and especially above +25, takes a dive off a cliff.

    For players who only do M+, do we really want a situation where if you want to obtain the best gear as a Healer you need to play RDruid (for example)? Even +15's early in the season can be a struggle for some specs, especially those who Pug.

    Capping the rewards at a +15 ensures you don't need to playa Meta spec in order to achieve those rewards in a timely manner... assuming you have a group to run with. Pushing it out to +25 would punish anyone playing a non-meta class/spec more than the Pug world already does.
    Last edited by Dakara; 2020-09-19 at 05:53 AM.

  2. #342
    Immortal callipygoustp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whiskeyjac View Post
    Sometimes less is more... Having ten thousand spells for every class would appeal to some people but at the end of the day the average player would only use maybe 10 of the "best".

    I don't really understand what appeal there is to having dozens of choices or dozens of paths when moving towards a unified end goal. I think one of wow's major problems is that its playerbase is envious of others to the extremes. It isn't enough to excel at your chosen content... instead everything that doesn't offer the most powerful reward is looked at by scorn even by those who proclaim they have no desire to do the harder content.
    The nice thing for people that "don't really understand" it is that when there are more choices they have the choice to not use them. For the rest of us, that enjoy having more choices, when choices are removed we're kind of fucked.


    Quote Originally Posted by Whiskeyjac View Post
    You can't have your cake and eat it to.
    Yes, you absolutely can. I have in the past. I will again in the future.

  3. #343
    Quote Originally Posted by callipygoustp View Post
    The nice thing for people that "don't really understand" it is that when there are more choices they have the choice to not use them. For the rest of us, that enjoy having more choices, when choices are removed we're kind of fucked.
    What choice is removed for you? M+ is still there...?

  4. #344
    Quote Originally Posted by Hey There Guys its Metro View Post
    The chest still gives the same gear as Mythic raid, and will require like 30 minutes of effort once a week.
    If anything, the chest = all other content not relevant.
    You still need like 14 weeks worth of chests assuming you never get items for a slot you already have, which you will ... so with 1 choice a week, it's very likely you wont fill all the slots during a patch

  5. #345
    Immortal callipygoustp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tomten View Post
    What choice is removed for you? M+ is still there...?
    Read the thread. Plenty of people have explained it already.

  6. #346
    Quote Originally Posted by callipygoustp View Post
    Read the thread. Plenty of people have explained it already.
    So no choice has been removed for you or anyone else. Got it

  7. #347
    Immortal callipygoustp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tomten View Post
    So no choice has been removed for you or anyone else. Got it
    Yeah, that's a meaningful response. If that's not disingenuous bullshit and you're not just trolling, you're reading comprehension sucks

  8. #348
    Quote Originally Posted by callipygoustp View Post
    Yeah, that's a meaningful response. If that's not disingenuous bullshit and you're not just trolling, you're reading comprehension sucks
    Ironic you use the word disingenuous when thats exactly what you're doing.
    You still have the choice to do M+, nothing is removed.
    You're just bitching you can't get the best gear week 1

  9. #349
    Immortal callipygoustp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tomten View Post
    Ironic you use the word disingenuous when thats exactly what you're doing.
    You still have the choice to do M+, nothing is removed.
    You're just bitching you can't get the best gear week 1
    Oh look, you were baiting me. Shocker from the low post folks. Whose your main account and how long is it banned for?

  10. #350
    Quote Originally Posted by Ofmanv View Post
    Ion and co see WoW solely as an oversized lobby for instanced boss fights rather than an MMO.

    People who want raids to be the one and only be-all-end-all of the game can go play classic and let the rest of the players enjoy a game that's grown over 16 years.
    So...mythic dungeons are not instanced boss fights, right?

  11. #351
    Quote Originally Posted by iperson View Post
    There is still a reward. If you enjoy M+ then it should be enough. If you were spamming M+ for gear, then now you don't have to. Gear inflation in BFA was out of control and blizz obviously thought so as well. It's a good change.
    Again, please read the op first. The point is exactly that there is no reward anymore.

  12. #352
    Quote Originally Posted by Dakara View Post
    In theory, moving the rewards cap to +20-25 makes sense. In reality however, like PvP, M+ will never be balanced. There are simply too many class/specs to accomplish that in such small content.

    Right now, with gear scaling and an expansions worth of knowledge, we're seeing some players push higher and higher keys... but the class(spec) representation as you get above +20, and especially above +25, takes a dive off a cliff.

    For players who only do M+, do we really want a situation where if you want to obtain the best gear as a Healer you need to play RDruid (for example)? Even +15's early in the season can be a struggle for some specs, especially those who Pug.

    Capping the rewards at a +15 ensures you don't need to playa Meta spec in order to achieve those rewards in a timely manner... assuming you have a group to run with. Pushing it out to +25 would punish anyone playing a non-meta class/spec more than the Pug world already does.
    I think that is the major disadvantage to trying to make small group content 5s and to a lesser extent 10s a viable option for being the hardest difficulty. They would be required to be brought up to the level of current mythic raiding and that would mean a large swath of non optimal classes would find extreme difficulty in completing it even assuming each player played exceptionally well.

    The only problem I see is it is hard for me to deny those pushing past 20 keys mythic loot at the reward suits the difficulty of such a task. I agree grudgingly that the current solution is the lesser of two evils but I still see it as a evil I just can't really work out a better solution.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by callipygoustp View Post
    The nice thing for people that "don't really understand" it is that when there are more choices they have the choice to not use them. For the rest of us, that enjoy having more choices, when choices are removed we're kind of fucked.



    Yes, you absolutely can. I have in the past. I will again in the future.
    I would agree if there wasn't also a push for semi permeance. WoW for the past fifteen years has without fail rewarded players who where willing to adapt to challenges to overcome them. As early as vanilla a warrior who was willing to spec arms with a 2 hander and mortal strike and then respec into fury for raiding would excel in both fields.

    What I dislike about the direction the game is taking is how these systems seemed aimed at not allowing top players to do so. Loosing an entire lockout of renowned (AP) isn't really something anyone should be willing to do during progression yet these talents act as any other dps talent row with those that excel in pve and pvp. In trying to create the illusion of choice and individuality they are simply going to push people towards having two characters for each class people want to play. One for pvp and one for pve.

  13. #353
    Quote Originally Posted by Accendor View Post
    Again, please read the op first. The point is exactly that there is no reward anymore.
    There literally is a reward...

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by tomten View Post
    So no choice has been removed for you or anyone else. Got it
    I want the works
    I want the whole works
    Presents and prizes and sweets and surprises
    Of all shapes and sizes
    And now
    Don't care how
    I want it now
    Don't care how
    I want it now

  14. #354
    Stood in the Fire Krimzin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mystikal View Post
    Only if you clear a minimum of 4 (for 2) or 10 (for 3) +15 keys each week. That will not become a regular thing for a few resets at least (except for the very best players), and with the vastly reduced drop rate in M+ themselves, the wait will be even longer for non-raiders. That's not a problem in and of itself, but the wait is TOO long, if you're not raiding..
    You make a couple good points, but you are missing big picture.
    So if this were BFA and they reduced the drop rates it would be signifigant.
    With the changes to the weekly chest, and the ability to get up to 9 choices, chances are you are going to get a Max ilvl piece you can use each and every week once you are clearing 15s.
    With that alone, you will be full ilvl 226 in the first 90 days. So tell me again how that is TOO SLOW.

    Even if all you are doing are Mythics, no PvP and no raiding you will still have 3 items to choose from each week. I think adding 3 more possible loot chances in the weekly chest will make a lot of folks who may not be raiders, into raiders.

    We shall see.
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  15. #355
    Legendary! TEHPALLYTANK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Accendor View Post
    The point is exactly that there is no reward anymore.
    That statement is objectively and blatantly false, are you really going to persist in repeating it despite that?
    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbamboozal View Post
    Intelligence is like four wheel drive, it's not going to make you unstoppable, it just sort of tends to get you stuck in more remote places.
    Quote Originally Posted by MerinPally View Post
    If you want to be disgusted, next time you kiss someone remember you've got your mouth on the end of a tube which has shit at the other end, held back by a couple of valves.

  16. #356
    Quote Originally Posted by TEHPALLYTANK View Post
    That statement is objectively and blatantly false, are you really going to persist in repeating it despite that?
    Care to explain again how it is false? Maybe it missed it.

  17. #357
    Legendary! TEHPALLYTANK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Accendor View Post
    Care to explain again how it is false? Maybe it missed it.
    https://www.wowhead.com/news=317979/...on-reward-redu
    Quote Originally Posted by Accendor View Post
    The point is exactly that there is no reward anymore.
    So I'll ask only once more, are you going to continue making objectively false statements?
    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbamboozal View Post
    Intelligence is like four wheel drive, it's not going to make you unstoppable, it just sort of tends to get you stuck in more remote places.
    Quote Originally Posted by MerinPally View Post
    If you want to be disgusted, next time you kiss someone remember you've got your mouth on the end of a tube which has shit at the other end, held back by a couple of valves.

  18. #358
    Quote Originally Posted by callipygoustp View Post
    Oh look, you were baiting me. Shocker from the low post folks. Whose your main account and how long is it banned for?
    Baiting you with truth? Why don't you explain what has been removed, exactly, be specific

  19. #359
    Quote Originally Posted by Dakara View Post
    M+ Gearing needed to be brought into heel.
    Also gotta consider that titanforging no longer exists, which is honestly probably thee reason for all of these changes. Before it always had the potential to titanforge higher up which meant it was ok for M+ to drop such high ilvl loot in such high quantities without a cap, because even once you had a full set you could still keep spamming it fishing for titanforges.

    Now without that, they need to find another way to stretch that progression out. The reduction being necessary, but also the easier way out.

    In theory, moving the rewards cap to +20-25 makes sense. In reality however, like PvP, M+ will never be balanced. There are simply too many class/specs to accomplish that in such small content.

    Right now, with gear scaling and an expansions worth of knowledge, we're seeing some players push higher and higher keys... but the class(spec) representation as you get above +20, and especially above +25, takes a dive off a cliff.

    For players who only do M+, do we really want a situation where if you want to obtain the best gear as a Healer you need to play RDruid (for example)? Even +15's early in the season can be a struggle for some specs, especially those who Pug.

    Capping the rewards at a +15 ensures you don't need to playa Meta spec in order to achieve those rewards in a timely manner... assuming you have a group to run with. Pushing it out to +25 would punish anyone playing a non-meta class/spec more than the Pug world already does.
    I made this post on the last page yesterday about this topic (is a bit long though):

    https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...1#post52655004

    In regards to meta's, I don't see that as an issue ultimately. It being 5 mans makes it tremendously easier to have a friend group to push with vs the maintenance that an entire guild requires for raids. Which means its much easier to play off-meta specs to push higher. With that example I gave the truly sweatiest of players with meta group comps will be able to maybe get a couple extra pieces a week (likely past when they'll even need any more gear) which isn't the end of the world. As long as every spec in the game can potentially push high enough to get to the mythic cap then its fine. And I feel like that is absolutely achievable.
    ..and so he left, with terrible power in shaking hands.

  20. #360
    This suits me very well.

    I enjoy mythic raids but preparing for it was a tedious grind that felt like a 2nd unfun job.

    Now I have the freedom and time to play what i want to next to raiding. I personally did not think WoD was so bad as most. I raided HFC and did what i liked besides it like Ashran or other games.

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