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  1. #481
    Quote Originally Posted by Elbob View Post
    People asked for end game options other than raiding so blizzard provided but apparently its their fault for giving people what they asked for.
    So blizzard is not even partially responsible for how they design things?
    ..and so he left, with terrible power in shaking hands.

  2. #482
    Quote Originally Posted by Mystikal View Post
    That will only be the case if you're clearing about 13 keys each week and doing so from week 1 (not going to happen for the vast majority), because of the way the extra choices calculate their item level based on keys cleared. Your first choice is always your highest key cleared (yay!), but after that, it's your 4th highest run and then your 10th highest run. No-one in the first few weeks will be jumping straight up to a +15, because everyone will have to start out with their base keys from M0. In order to be able to start straight at +15 the following week, you must have cleared a +16 in week 1 - again, not going to happen for anyone except the very, very best. So, realistically, to get 3 choices of 226 items the following week, you are looking at 7-8 runs to climb to a +15 key, and then a further 9 clears of +15 to make all the choices 226 ilvl. This is not a very likely scenario for most players.

    Even if you decide you're only going to go for 2 choices in your chest, there are the keys that you must successfully clear to raise your key level to +15, and you must then clear a further 3 +15 keys to get the 2nd choice to 226 ilvl. That is still a huge time investment.

    Now, since somebody like myself won't have any heroic raiding gear to help me, I will be trying to do all of the above with WQ rewards, essentially, since my odds of getting any loot from the M+ clears themselves are now very small. Yes, I might pick up an item or two from the clears, but it won't be many. Meanwhile, my guildies will be getting loot regularly from their clears of the heroic raid - content I am capable of doing, but not at the same time every week. It has never taken them more than 3 resets to start comfortably clearing heroic, so let's set that as the benchmark. After 3 weeks, they are starting to get more and more gear from heroic raids, which in turn gives them a higher ilvl and more power, and increases their chances of clearing to a higher key and starting from an increased key level next reset. In addition, it hardly matters if they get nothing from the actual clear of the key itself, because they're already in higher level gear. Win-win, for them.

    I, on the other hand, have no means of getting the gear required other than running M+ again, and again, and again, and AGAIN... all in the vain hope that I might actually get a drop. Once I have reached the point at which I can comfortably clear +15 keys, that is when my gearing actually STARTS.

    I am more than capable of actually doing the content, but skill will only take you so far. At some point, you need the actual raw stats that gear gives you in order to push out the required dps / healing / mitigation that higher keys require. Heroic & mythic raiders, after a few resets, will come in with a massive power advantage and will be clearing those +15s earlier, and also not have to worry about doing more than the actual number of runs required, as the gear that drops from the completed runs will be of little to no use to them. Anyone not fortunate enough to be able to raid will have to spam M+ endlessly to increase their ilvl, and the drop rates have been neutered.

    The whole thing is set up so that the gearing up process for raiders is vastly shortened, and vastly increased for M+ runners.

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    In your scenario above, for someone like me, who cannot raid with my guild every week, my "off weeks" will be done in 5 minutes. Log on, do my Torghast legendary materials run, then ensure I log on 3 times during the 7 day week to keep up with my Callings, then log off. None of what I have done has increased my character's power nor has it given me any gear. Sounds thrilling.

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    They won't though, on both counts. The raiders will be getting gear with far more regularity than the M+ runners since the M+ clears themselves virtually do not reward gear (except for 1 lucky individual), and if they weren't running raids before, giving them a gear drought isn't going to suddenly make them start. It's far more likely that they'll just quit entirely and unsub - not good for Blizzard.
    Are you comparing the gearing process of guilds vs PuGing?

    Because if that guild spent the same hours doing mythic+ as they do in the raid they would still fly way past you in gear.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Baconeggcheese View Post
    I think part of that is blizzards fault, as they want PvP and M+ to be their own separate end game activities that you can invest yourself in... but potentially the best gear for those activities still comes from raiding. And those activities don't really have a defined end point like raiding does. There is no end boss, you just keep pushing.
    A lot of BiS gear for raiding is going to come from the mythic+ weekly vault as well considering the raid has trash secondary stat coverage.

    For a mail user the raid has 5 slots with only a single secondary stat combo.
    Last edited by Argorwal; 2020-09-28 at 08:14 PM.

  3. #483
    Quote Originally Posted by Argorwal View Post
    A lot of BiS gear for raiding is going to come from mythic+ as well considering the raid has trash secondary stat coverage.

    For a mail user the raid has 5 slots with only a single secondary stat combo.
    That'd have to be some intensely bad scaling considering M+'s 3 ilvls below heroic's ilvl.
    ..and so he left, with terrible power in shaking hands.

  4. #484
    Quote Originally Posted by Mystikal View Post
    I ask this genuinely, but can you explain how you have come to that conclusion? Because, in my mind, it seems to be based off the assumption that anyone running M+ exclusively is going to jump in week 1 and be clearing multiple +15s from the get-go. This isn't very likely. Your "decked out in 2 months" assumption seems to be based on getting two 226 pieces in your chest every week with no duplicates, but you don't seem to be taking into account the journey to actually get there. If you're raiding, you have an extra avenue of superior items, and that's fine with me. What isn't fine, is that you could realistically go weeks at a time getting nothing from M+ clears. Until you do, you're not pushing higher than your levelling / WQ items will allow you to do. There are no other means of overcoming that in SL, except raiding. The tables have turned too far the other way.
    If you're not jumping into 15s after week one then you don't deserve to be getting any mythic quality loot. You barely deserve normal quality loot. If you are gearing in mythic plus the chest should match raiding. You should only get items at the difficulty they you actually cleared. Blizzard isn't done with casual catering yet.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nizah View Post
    why so mad bro

  5. #485
    Quote Originally Posted by Baconeggcheese View Post
    That'd have to be some intensely bad scaling considering M+'s 3 ilvls below heroic's ilvl.
    I meant the 226 version of the mythic+ gear from the weekly vault.

    I should have clarified that in my response.

  6. #486
    I'll carefully add that while i prefer m+ and i think it should still be supported and "self sustainable" (meaning you can eventually get enough loot to push just as well as mythic raiders), i think its fine the grindable loot is nerfed. It might have been too much (i think if i were blizz i'd settle for either reducing the itemlevel or the amount of loot, not both), but one of them had to give. Without it, hc raids are completely trivilalized by how easy it is to farm equilavent loot from 15s. I know some don't care about it (heck, i don't care much), but a lot of people pug hcs and really enjoy it, its the hardest "puggable" raiding content, and with these changes it will be able to last into relevancy much longer into a tier, while still not majorly gimping m+ players thanks to the weekly chest staying powerful. Lastly, doing 15s once you have workable gear is ussualy easier then full clearing hc (not personally, simply due to bigger pugs having more of a chance to fail).

    It might be ok, though, for keys higher then 15s to reward better end-of-run loot up to hc level, and possibly even multiple mythic level weekly chest drops at very high keys (so as a reward for doing truly challenging group content, your weekly reward is doubled. Still slower then mythic raiding and only rewards those who have truly earned that, while letting them skip hc raiding gearing if they're truly that good). My idea is just some rough suggestion, it might have problems, but what i really wanted to say is that as much as i love m+, its reward structure can't be "too good" without completely neutering hc raids, and i think blizz's solution is an imperfect but fairly decent middle ground.

  7. #487
    Quote Originally Posted by Argorwal View Post
    I meant the 226 version of the mythic+ gear from the weekly vault.

    I should have clarified that in my response.
    Ah, well 2 things there.

    1: Do we know exactly how the pool of loot works from the weekly vault? As in do we know if its pulling from the pool that you unlocked the option from or if its just going to pull more chances out of its own pool? I haven't seen anything that expressly stated the options would be specifically from the pool of the activity that unlocked it but that would make sense.

    2: I don't think the amount of effort that goes into doing some 15's as a mythic raider is commensurate with the amount of effort it takes to clear a mythic raid as a M+ or PvP player.
    ..and so he left, with terrible power in shaking hands.

  8. #488
    Quote Originally Posted by Baconeggcheese View Post
    So blizzard is not even partially responsible for how they design things?
    not what i said, i said its a damned if do/don't. People ask for 1 thing but blizzard still gets blamed for doing it. Of course they are responsible but its just evidence that the playerbase isnt able to be satisfied.

  9. #489
    Yep WoD is back on the menu
    this raid trinkets are legit broken in pvp too btw.

  10. #490
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrod View Post
    Yeah the far bigger issue is that heroic is too easy given the gear heroic raiders can get.
    I am honestly not sure if that is true... I think the weekly events are a worse case for this with the most egregious one being against all odds for the alliance.

    Blizzard has taken what should be grinder catch up gear and just given it out for almost nothing. It is one of the main reasons why professions are dead.

  11. #491
    Quote Originally Posted by Baconeggcheese View Post
    Ah, well 2 things there.

    1: Do we know exactly how the pool of loot works from the weekly vault? As in do we know if its pulling from the pool that you unlocked the option from or if its just going to pull more chances out of its own pool? I haven't seen anything that expressly stated the options would be specifically from the pool of the activity that unlocked it but that would make sense.

    2: I don't think the amount of effort that goes into doing some 15's as a mythic raider is commensurate with the amount of effort it takes to clear a mythic raid as a M+ or PvP player.
    I don’t think Blizzard has specially called how the great vault loot tables will work, so my assumption is based on BfA where the weekly mythic+ cache pulls from the dungeon loot table and the weekly PvP cache pulls from PvP loot table.

    I would expect the raid item in the vault to pull from the raid loot table, the mythic+ from the dungeon loot table, and PvP from the PvP loot table. Anything else wouldn’t make sense (but clearly that doesn’t mean Blizz won’t do it lol).

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