Mythic Raiding in SL = all other content not relevant?

[bmjclark]

yes but your gear will come from the weekly chest anyways thats blizzs plan for gearing, they redused raid gear drops too and have this big vault with up to 9 times to pick from this is how all will gear up (unless lucky in raid)

Yea i understood that part of it. The way people were talking i was expecting mythic+ to drop normal level gear at the end of the run or something lmao. This doesn't seem that bad. Though I do think they could have just given it the extra 3 points for the sake of people who want to trade gear in heroic raids.

[Feral Druid ist Op]

Yea i understood that part of it. The way people were talking i was expecting mythic+ to drop normal level gear at the end of the run or something lmao. This doesn't seem that bad. Though I do think they could have just given it the extra 3 points for the sake of people who want to trade gear in heroic raids.

this is the reason why they did it in the first place, to fuck us top 50 raider so we cant trade gear in our split raids

[Thelyron]

I don't know why some people equate "raiding rewards the best gear" with "raid or die". There is still a lot of other stuff to do, but you should not be able to catch up to someone who raids if you don't. Your personal endgame would then be some other content besides raiding. This is how mmos are supposed to be.

[Baconeggcheese]

I don't know why some people equate "raiding rewards the best gear" with "raid or die". There is still a lot of other stuff to do, but you should not be able to catch up to someone who raids if you don't. Your personal endgame would then be some other content besides raiding. This is how mmos are supposed to be.

I think part of that is blizzards fault, as they want PvP and M+ to be their own separate end game activities that you can invest yourself in... but potentially the best gear for those activities still comes from raiding. And those activities don't really have a defined end point like raiding does. There is no end boss, you just keep pushing.

[thatmikeguy]

Since I'm mostly PvP player, I'd love it if it was just this to do every week.

What I would like to do when I log in to WoW? Play arena with my teammates, go do some battlegrounds, duel with friends, do some occasional world PvP. M+ and raids when I'm in the mood. In BFA I had to do A LOT of things, a lot of things that I didn't want to do. There were so many things to do to stay competitive that I didn't had time to do the things that I would like to do. There are actually so many things I'd like to do in this game that I don't have time to do, because I have to do my WoW chores.

I'd like to have more time for transmog runs, for playing my alts, I'd like to try pet battles more than once a year. Hell, maybe I'd even have time to actually raid again because I would do arenas instead of all those dailies and than I would have time to join my guild in raids more often.

Looking forward to less chores and more fun in a video game.

Same. I should have time for alt runs again.

[Elbob]

I think part of that is blizzards fault, as they want PvP and M+ to be their own separate end game activities that you can invest yourself in... but potentially the best gear for those activities still comes from raiding. And those activities don't really have a defined end point like raiding does. There is no end boss, you just keep pushing.

people asked for other end game options though... this is such a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" comment

[exochaft]

I think part of that is blizzards fault, as they want PvP and M+ to be their own separate end game activities that you can invest yourself in... but potentially the best gear for those activities still comes from raiding. And those activities don't really have a defined end point like raiding does. There is no end boss, you just keep pushing.

Blizz is also being extremely generous with this proposed looting system, as it basically still allows everyone to be on equal footing in the end (except the extreme minority who will get a couple ilvl higher pieces from the last two raid bosses on mythic). Essentially, it's trying to achieve one of the goals of WF/TFing: allow everyone, regardless of content to catch up to mythic raiders in terms of gear, it'll just take longer. Only difference is that much of the random luck has been removed from the system. With how the weekly vault works, players in M+/PvP will catch up even faster to mythic raiders than the speed they typically achieved in BfA due to unlocking multiple choices and reducing the chance you get repeat and/or terrible loot.

As has been stated ad nauseum, the loot changes as a whole are to rebalance the loot system to make all content matter, allowing players to focus on what they want without the need to stray into content they don't desire. Again, Blizz is being generous in this regard, as they could've easily had it so mythic raid gear was clearly superior to everything. They may go this route in the future, who knows.

.

[Baconeggcheese]

people asked for other end game options though... this is such a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" comment

How do you figure?

Blizz is also being extremely generous with this proposed looting system, as it basically still allows everyone to be on equal footing in the end (except the extreme minority who will get a couple ilvl higher pieces from the last two raid bosses on mythic). Essentially, it's trying to achieve one of the goals of WF/TFing: allow everyone, regardless of content to catch up to mythic raiders in terms of gear, it'll just take longer. Only difference is that much of the random luck has been removed from the system. With how the weekly vault works, players in M+/PvP will catch up even faster to mythic raiders than the speed they typically achieved in BfA due to unlocking multiple choices and reducing the chance you get repeat and/or terrible loot.

As has been stated ad nauseum, the loot changes as a whole are to rebalance the loot system to make all content matter, allowing players to focus on what they want without the need to stray into content they don't desire. Again, Blizz is being generous in this regard, as they could've easily had it so mythic raid gear was clearly superior to everything. They may go this route in the future, who knows.

I don't think the vault is a good or satisfying solution to that problem though. Especially since it doesn't really reward you with achieving or pushing content like raiding does. If I kill that end boss I see that immediate list of rewards our raid got, if I complete a +28 I get rewarded the exact same pull that a person who completed a +15 gets.

[Orwell7]

this is the reason why they did it in the first place, to fuck us top 50 raider so we cant trade gear in our split raids

I don't think there are a lot of players like me, but I welcome this change because I don't have the time for split raids.
This makes the gearing progression at the start of a tier much slower.

This means for me that I can compete with my skill rather than having to "auto lose" to someone who had more time. In ALL expansions except Legion and BfA, the gearing process wasn't plagued by split runs and armor-runs to inflate gear levels to an obscene amount.
And it felt goood that I can kick some high-end raiders ass on WCL from my "top" 1500 guild.

[Elbob]

How do you figure?

I think part of that is blizzards fault, as they want PvP and M+ to be their own separate end game activities that you can invest yourself in...

People asked for end game options other than raiding so blizzard provided but apparently its their fault for giving people what they asked for.

[Baconeggcheese]

People asked for end game options other than raiding so blizzard provided but apparently its their fault for giving people what they asked for.

So blizzard is not even partially responsible for how they design things?

[Argorwal]

That will only be the case if you're clearing about 13 keys each week and doing so from week 1 (not going to happen for the vast majority), because of the way the extra choices calculate their item level based on keys cleared. Your first choice is always your highest key cleared (yay!), but after that, it's your 4th highest run and then your 10th highest run. No-one in the first few weeks will be jumping straight up to a +15, because everyone will have to start out with their base keys from M0. In order to be able to start straight at +15 the following week, you must have cleared a +16 in week 1 - again, not going to happen for anyone except the very, very best. So, realistically, to get 3 choices of 226 items the following week, you are looking at 7-8 runs to climb to a +15 key, and then a further 9 clears of +15 to make all the choices 226 ilvl. This is not a very likely scenario for most players.

Even if you decide you're only going to go for 2 choices in your chest, there are the keys that you must successfully clear to raise your key level to +15, and you must then clear a further 3 +15 keys to get the 2nd choice to 226 ilvl. That is still a huge time investment.

Now, since somebody like myself won't have any heroic raiding gear to help me, I will be trying to do all of the above with WQ rewards, essentially, since my odds of getting any loot from the M+ clears themselves are now very small. Yes, I might pick up an item or two from the clears, but it won't be many. Meanwhile, my guildies will be getting loot regularly from their clears of the heroic raid - content I am capable of doing, but not at the same time every week. It has never taken them more than 3 resets to start comfortably clearing heroic, so let's set that as the benchmark. After 3 weeks, they are starting to get more and more gear from heroic raids, which in turn gives them a higher ilvl and more power, and increases their chances of clearing to a higher key and starting from an increased key level next reset. In addition, it hardly matters if they get nothing from the actual clear of the key itself, because they're already in higher level gear. Win-win, for them.

I, on the other hand, have no means of getting the gear required other than running M+ again, and again, and again, and AGAIN... all in the vain hope that I might actually get a drop. Once I have reached the point at which I can comfortably clear +15 keys, that is when my gearing actually STARTS.

I am more than capable of actually doing the content, but skill will only take you so far. At some point, you need the actual raw stats that gear gives you in order to push out the required dps / healing / mitigation that higher keys require. Heroic & mythic raiders, after a few resets, will come in with a massive power advantage and will be clearing those +15s earlier, and also not have to worry about doing more than the actual number of runs required, as the gear that drops from the completed runs will be of little to no use to them. Anyone not fortunate enough to be able to raid will have to spam M+ endlessly to increase their ilvl, and the drop rates have been neutered.

The whole thing is set up so that the gearing up process for raiders is vastly shortened, and vastly increased for M+ runners.

- - - Updated - - -



In your scenario above, for someone like me, who cannot raid with my guild every week, my "off weeks" will be done in 5 minutes. Log on, do my Torghast legendary materials run, then ensure I log on 3 times during the 7 day week to keep up with my Callings, then log off. None of what I have done has increased my character's power nor has it given me any gear. Sounds thrilling.

- - - Updated - - -



They won't though, on both counts. The raiders will be getting gear with far more regularity than the M+ runners since the M+ clears themselves virtually do not reward gear (except for 1 lucky individual), and if they weren't running raids before, giving them a gear drought isn't going to suddenly make them start. It's far more likely that they'll just quit entirely and unsub - not good for Blizzard.

Are you comparing the gearing process of guilds vs PuGing?

Because if that guild spent the same hours doing mythic+ as they do in the raid they would still fly way past you in gear.

- - - Updated - - -

I think part of that is blizzards fault, as they want PvP and M+ to be their own separate end game activities that you can invest yourself in... but potentially the best gear for those activities still comes from raiding. And those activities don't really have a defined end point like raiding does. There is no end boss, you just keep pushing.

A lot of BiS gear for raiding is going to come from the mythic+ weekly vault as well considering the raid has trash secondary stat coverage.

For a mail user the raid has 5 slots with only a single secondary stat combo.

[Baconeggcheese]

A lot of BiS gear for raiding is going to come from mythic+ as well considering the raid has trash secondary stat coverage.

For a mail user the raid has 5 slots with only a single secondary stat combo.

That'd have to be some intensely bad scaling considering M+'s 3 ilvls below heroic's ilvl.

[munkeyinorbit]

I ask this genuinely, but can you explain how you have come to that conclusion? Because, in my mind, it seems to be based off the assumption that anyone running M+ exclusively is going to jump in week 1 and be clearing multiple +15s from the get-go. This isn't very likely. Your "decked out in 2 months" assumption seems to be based on getting two 226 pieces in your chest every week with no duplicates, but you don't seem to be taking into account the journey to actually get there. If you're raiding, you have an extra avenue of superior items, and that's fine with me. What isn't fine, is that you could realistically go weeks at a time getting nothing from M+ clears. Until you do, you're not pushing higher than your levelling / WQ items will allow you to do. There are no other means of overcoming that in SL, except raiding. The tables have turned too far the other way.

If you're not jumping into 15s after week one then you don't deserve to be getting any mythic quality loot. You barely deserve normal quality loot. If you are gearing in mythic plus the chest should match raiding. You should only get items at the difficulty they you actually cleared. Blizzard isn't done with casual catering yet.

[Argorwal]

That'd have to be some intensely bad scaling considering M+'s 3 ilvls below heroic's ilvl.

I meant the 226 version of the mythic+ gear from the weekly vault.

I should have clarified that in my response.

[Amariw]

I'll carefully add that while i prefer m+ and i think it should still be supported and "self sustainable" (meaning you can eventually get enough loot to push just as well as mythic raiders), i think its fine the grindable loot is nerfed. It might have been too much (i think if i were blizz i'd settle for either reducing the itemlevel or the amount of loot, not both), but one of them had to give. Without it, hc raids are completely trivilalized by how easy it is to farm equilavent loot from 15s. I know some don't care about it (heck, i don't care much), but a lot of people pug hcs and really enjoy it, its the hardest "puggable" raiding content, and with these changes it will be able to last into relevancy much longer into a tier, while still not majorly gimping m+ players thanks to the weekly chest staying powerful. Lastly, doing 15s once you have workable gear is ussualy easier then full clearing hc (not personally, simply due to bigger pugs having more of a chance to fail).

It might be ok, though, for keys higher then 15s to reward better end-of-run loot up to hc level, and possibly even multiple mythic level weekly chest drops at very high keys (so as a reward for doing truly challenging group content, your weekly reward is doubled. Still slower then mythic raiding and only rewards those who have truly earned that, while letting them skip hc raiding gearing if they're truly that good). My idea is just some rough suggestion, it might have problems, but what i really wanted to say is that as much as i love m+, its reward structure can't be "too good" without completely neutering hc raids, and i think blizz's solution is an imperfect but fairly decent middle ground.

[Baconeggcheese]

I meant the 226 version of the mythic+ gear from the weekly vault.

I should have clarified that in my response.

Ah, well 2 things there.

1: Do we know exactly how the pool of loot works from the weekly vault? As in do we know if its pulling from the pool that you unlocked the option from or if its just going to pull more chances out of its own pool? I haven't seen anything that expressly stated the options would be specifically from the pool of the activity that unlocked it but that would make sense.

2: I don't think the amount of effort that goes into doing some 15's as a mythic raider is commensurate with the amount of effort it takes to clear a mythic raid as a M+ or PvP player.

[Elbob]

So blizzard is not even partially responsible for how they design things?

not what i said, i said its a damned if do/don't. People ask for 1 thing but blizzard still gets blamed for doing it. Of course they are responsible but its just evidence that the playerbase isnt able to be satisfied.

[LostLocket]

Yeah the far bigger issue is that heroic is too easy given the gear heroic raiders can get.

I am honestly not sure if that is true... I think the weekly events are a worse case for this with the most egregious one being against all odds for the alliance.

Blizzard has taken what should be grinder catch up gear and just given it out for almost nothing. It is one of the main reasons why professions are dead.

[Argorwal]

Ah, well 2 things there.

1: Do we know exactly how the pool of loot works from the weekly vault? As in do we know if its pulling from the pool that you unlocked the option from or if its just going to pull more chances out of its own pool? I haven't seen anything that expressly stated the options would be specifically from the pool of the activity that unlocked it but that would make sense.

2: I don't think the amount of effort that goes into doing some 15's as a mythic raider is commensurate with the amount of effort it takes to clear a mythic raid as a M+ or PvP player.

I don’t think Blizzard has specially called how the great vault loot tables will work, so my assumption is based on BfA where the weekly mythic+ cache pulls from the dungeon loot table and the weekly PvP cache pulls from PvP loot table.

I would expect the raid item in the vault to pull from the raid loot table, the mythic+ from the dungeon loot table, and PvP from the PvP loot table. Anything else wouldn’t make sense (but clearly that doesn’t mean Blizz won’t do it lol).