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  1. #121
    I wouldn't mind going back to the times where I could chill outside of raidtimes instead of feel like I should "fill up this AP bar", or "Get more echoes", or this and that.
    Hi

  2. #122
    This entire game revolves around "mythic raiders". Class design, tuning, gear...

    Ofcourse they need to somehow placate the majority that pays the bill so the subpar often useless but average ilvl gear drop from LFR or WQ etc..

    No one is happy. So a perfect expansion..

    Yeah, Mythic plus was designed as an "alternative" to raiding. But 1000 top players took that an opportunity to "socialize' even less with real people in world and went all out on gear farming. And now Mythic plus is screwed. It is basically new LFR, just a harder version.

    So why do we have 3 versions of raid again?

  3. #123
    I wouldn't say that they're not relevant. More, I'd say that M+ will still be main thing(at least at start) to gear up asap. But then? Just do whatever you think it's the best for you, because the ilvl drop would be the same.

    Quote Originally Posted by Krimzin View Post
    Top Tier Raiding should always be the top progression.
    It takes the most work. It takes a dedicated group working in unison.
    PvP is about solo performance and/or 2-3 man teams.
    Mythic+ 5 man teams
    Raiding non Mythic is so easy because of scaling.
    Mythic raiding is difficult because not only the raid difficulty but the Roster boss as well.
    Trying to get 20 solid people who can function as a single unit with same goals is challenging in itself.

    Its about time Blizzard got something right. Mythic Raiding is the Top Tier Progression.. Period.


    Quote Originally Posted by jdbond View Post
    This entire game revolves around "mythic raiders". Class design, tuning, gear...
    Because that's the place where it matters the most. Who cares if you kill mobs on the WQuests 0,5-2 seconds faster than other classes? Who cares if you one-shot people at 1400 rating that have no idea how to counter your combo? Who cares if you finish +3 with "3 drops"?

    No one.

    Because it doesn't matter. The lower skill content doesn't matter. People are not racing in who kills the first 3 normal bosses ASAP. Why? Because 90% of the WoW community can do it(probably without even any preparation with LFR gear). While less than 1% participate in the world first race. The highest contents require balance, because there only player should matter, his dedication, his commitment, his preparation.

    That's the reason why it should be balanced there - on the highest ilvl/skill content.
    Last edited by Eazy; 2020-09-17 at 08:17 AM.

  4. #124

  5. #125
    I just hope there's some sort of progression for the player that doesn't want to do manually grouped content that doesn't immediately dry up in a week. So long as I can have my path I can whittle away at and feel like I'm making progress toward, I'm happy. That's why I loved MoP so much, aside from the lack of dungeons being useful (but you still felt like they were worth doing to help toward badges and stuff). Since after that, it felt like that kind of player had almost nothing any fun to do unless you only played 1 hour a week or something.

    Give me that, and I don't give a fuck if Mythic raiders have like 5,000 ilvls over me.

    TBH, if it continues the trend of what it has been doing, I may just sit this one out until it's over, and just do all the content in a couple of months before the next expansion is out. I really miss MoP
    Last edited by Otimus; 2020-09-17 at 09:21 AM.

  6. #126
    I guess they want to tighten up the loot rains, raids drop less loot, so they don't want unlimited loot from M+ to be super relevant in that case.

    IMO, it's ok-ish, but I'm a mythic raider, so I'm all set there. I imagine people who mainly do M+ are less thrilled there.

  7. #127
    Quote Originally Posted by jdbond View Post
    This entire game revolves around "mythic raiders". Class design, tuning, gear...

    Ofcourse they need to somehow placate the majority that pays the bill so the subpar often useless but average ilvl gear drop from LFR or WQ etc..

    No one is happy. So a perfect expansion..

    Yeah, Mythic plus was designed as an "alternative" to raiding. But 1000 top players took that an opportunity to "socialize' even less with real people in world and went all out on gear farming. And now Mythic plus is screwed. It is basically new LFR, just a harder version.

    So why do we have 3 versions of raid again?
    The game is always tuned around the top level content be it PvE or PvP, because at that level the difference between skill of players is very small, since everyone is highly skilled, so it all comes down to the character performance. In lower levels the skill variance is very high where a good player with a shitty class can and will outperform a bad player with a FOTM class. Also fine tuning at that level is completely unnecessary.

    Mythic+ wasn't an alternative to raiding. It was there to give raiders something to do on the off nights that they want to play something that still poses a challenge, and something challenging for non-raiders to do. But more importantly (imho) what m+ accomplished is it let the actual dungeons stay relevant throughout the expansion. The content that deisgners and art team work a lot to create doesn't die out within a month, but keeps getting run. Furthermore, new players or alts could much easier get a group since the pool of players running them marginally increased. Its a win-win, but in no way was it supposed or should replace raiding that requires a completely different level of preparation, coordination and execution. Obviously, much higher keys do offer similar to mythic raiding challenges, but they are done by the same mythic raiders, who don't need gear rewards, but a sense of achievement, rankings, bragging rights.

    Let's not forget that its spammable content. In a raid you have the exact number of chances to get loot that is equal to the number of bosses + extra roll coins. With m+ you technically have an unlimited number of chances to get loot. So if the rewards were equal to mythic gear, it would ruin the whole raiding scene in terms of balance, tuning and difficulty.

    As long as the reward justifies the effort, it shouldn't be a problem.

  8. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by Eazy View Post
    I wouldn't say that they're not relevant. More, I'd say that M+ will still be main thing(at least at start) to gear up asap. But then? Just do whatever you think it's the best for you, because the ilvl drop would be the same.







    Because that's the place where it matters the most. Who cares if you kill mobs on the WQuests 0,5-2 seconds faster than other classes? Who cares if you one-shot people at 1400 rating that have no idea how to counter your combo? Who cares if you finish +3 with "3 drops"?

    No one.

    Because it doesn't matter. The lower skill content doesn't matter. People are not racing in who kills the first 3 normal bosses ASAP. Why? Because 90% of the WoW community can do it(probably without even any preparation with LFR gear). While less than 1% participate in the world first race. The highest contents require balance, because there only player should matter, his dedication, his commitment, his preparation.

    That's the reason why it should be balanced there - on the highest ilvl/skill content.
    That is bad game design. Making the game feel like shit for everyone except the top 5% is profoundly stupid.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  9. #129
    Quote Originally Posted by Accendor View Post
    honest question, please let's discuss this without hate.

    from what i have heard and seen on the beta only renown (~1h/week) and Torghast (also ~1h per week) offer Character progression.

    In addition to that we just learned that m+ gear will be before heroic raid gear.

    this means that if you raid mythic, your are done with all your weekly stuff in 2-3h (depending if you choose to do 1 m+ for the cache).

    ofc you could also do more m+ for more item selection, but this is very, very inefficient. still posdible tho.

    i understand many people like this, because they are free to do other things ingame now. my personal problem here is, that I am actually only really interested in things that offer Character progression and those are now heavily timegated.

    do i miss something? is there really nothing to do at max level besides the things I listed? would be a shame if this becomes a raidlogging expansion.
    You can finally do even things you want and not only things you must.

  10. #130
    The Patient
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    Blizzard has to make x-realm mythic raiding possible from the start... For alliance it takes half the raid tier before I can raid mythic (playing on a dead server)...

  11. #131
    Quote Originally Posted by Bennett View Post
    BC and Wrath were very raid or die, which is what I referring to
    And Cataclysm and MoP. Practically everything* were very raid or die except for BfA and maybe Legion. I'm a total casual, so it doesn't really matter for me, but it was a weird experience when in BfA I realized there is no reason for me to go into even normal raids, because I have similar ilvl from other sources.

    *including Vanilla. The only reason Vanilla was not raid or die because it was new for people and even jumping around a critter bunny for 2 hours while talking with another human being on chat seemed fun for most
    Last edited by Cathfaern; 2020-09-17 at 10:25 AM.

  12. #132
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    That is bad game design. Making the game feel like shit for everyone except the top 5% is profoundly stupid.
    The hardest content gives the best rewards, this isn't rocket science and doesn't make the game feel bad for everyone else".

    Previously there was nothing in the game to do besides raid, that's why it was raid or die.
    With WQ's and M+ existing this is much less of an issue.
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

  13. #133
    Quote Originally Posted by Gorsameth View Post
    The hardest content gives the best rewards, this isn't rocket science and doesn't make the game feel bad for everyone else".

    Previously there was nothing in the game to do besides raid, that's why it was raid or die.
    With WQ's and M+ existing this is much less of an issue.
    yep, thats why mythic raids give best rewards, even now

    why though HC raid should give better gear than +15? when it comes to difficulty its about the same as +15, but it gives better gear now... why?
    and for +20 or higher its outright stupid...

  14. #134
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    That is bad game design. Making the game feel like shit for everyone except the top 5% is profoundly stupid.
    Why it would feel for everyone else like shit? Your DMG done doesn't matter when you are doing LFR/Normal/HC, <15 M+, <2000 rating.

    Your priority at less skill-capped content isn't doing most of the DMG and min-maxing your charcter, but to have fun. You have fun while doing DMG/min-max your char? Then do the TOP 5% content. Simple as that. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

  15. #135
    Quote Originally Posted by tomten View Post
    Fantastic change, this makes me want to join a guild and raid again.... Raid log is perfect, who has time to spend days in a video game, every single week....??
    Also only raids offering the highest quality gear is a blessing, can differentiate between scrubs and not. Bravo blizz, a step in the right direction. SL might actually be pretty good after all
    Scrubs who raid 5 months to be be 6/10 vs people who have the skill to complete a +25 in time.

  16. #136
    Quote Originally Posted by Gorsameth View Post
    The hardest content gives the best rewards, this isn't rocket science and doesn't make the game feel bad for everyone else".

    Previously there was nothing in the game to do besides raid, that's why it was raid or die.
    With WQ's and M+ existing this is much less of an issue.
    What does that have to do with balancing the game only around the top 5% and letting everyone else fuck off?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Eazy View Post
    Why it would feel for everyone else like shit? Your DMG done doesn't matter when you are doing LFR/Normal/HC, <15 M+, <2000 rating.

    Your priority at less skill-capped content isn't doing most of the DMG and min-maxing your charcter, but to have fun.
    People still want to feel relatively balanced. Nobody wants to walk into a dungeon and the mage does 75% of the damage even if he is the worst player just because the game is only balanced at the extremes.

    And more importantly people don’t want to feel their class changed and nerfed because 1% of people are pulling ahead in top tier content with the same spec when that spec is perfectly balanced for everyone else. You think that feels good? “We took away this thing you enjoyed because a mythic raider was doing well with it”. What shit design. I’d get laughed out of a design meeting with that proposal.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  17. #137
    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    yep, thats why mythic raids give best rewards, even now

    why though HC raid should give better gear than +15? when it comes to difficulty its about the same as +15, but it gives better gear now... why?
    and for +20 or higher its outright stupid...
    In the end the Mythic+ player will have better gear, than the pure heroic raider.
    But there is nor reason to make a spammable ressource for gear so strong.

    Cap it at 3 runs per week where you are eligabel for loot then i don't mind.

  18. #138
    The Patient qil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beatman View Post
    Blizzard has to make x-realm mythic raiding possible from the start... For alliance it takes half the raid tier before I can raid mythic (playing on a dead server)...
    tip: change server.
    Already they plot against us.
    Seize this moment, Varian.
    Dismantle the Horde!

  19. #139
    Nothing scares "mythic raiders" more than "casuals" getting equal gear as them.

  20. #140
    Quote Originally Posted by Otimus View Post
    I just hope there's some sort of progression for the player that doesn't want to do manually grouped content that doesn't immediately dry up in a week. So long as I can have my path I can whittle away at and feel like I'm making progress toward, I'm happy. That's why I loved MoP so much, aside from the lack of dungeons being useful (but you still felt like they were worth doing to help toward badges and stuff). Since after that, it felt like that kind of player had almost nothing any fun to do unless you only played 1 hour a week or something.

    Give me that, and I don't give a fuck if Mythic raiders have like 5,000 ilvls over me.

    TBH, if it continues the trend of what it has been doing, I may just sit this one out until it's over, and just do all the content in a couple of months before the next expansion is out. I really miss MoP
    Yeah, that's not in SL, sorry

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by epLe View Post
    Nothing scares "mythic raiders" more than "casuals" getting equal gear as them.
    What has that to do with anything in this thread?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by qil View Post
    tip: change server.
    Sure, just invest like 200 euro for fun, lets go

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