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  1. #141
    Quote Originally Posted by Eazy View Post
    Why it would feel for everyone else like shit? Your DMG done doesn't matter when you are doing LFR/Normal/HC, <15 M+, <2000 rating.

    Your priority at less skill-capped content isn't doing most of the DMG and min-maxing your charcter, but to have fun. You have fun while doing DMG/min-max your char? Then do the TOP 5% content. Simple as that. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
    tbc end of the dungeon loot, one peace only which is sub HC level is shit design unless they add another step in the ladder for let's say +20 where you get something between HC and Mythic. On given affixes a +15 in time may be harder to clear than any HC boss early on in the season.
    HC raid you get more and better loot and in M+ you spend more time for less loot.

    Maybe blizz looked at key pushers and said that "they don't do it for loot anyway" which is mostly true later in season but it was better with TF. Removing TF was bad enough hit for M+ runners, now we literally do stuff for no reward what so ever.

  2. #142
    I don’t quite understanding. People bitched and moaned about having nothing to do every xpac, so isn’t this more of the same. You should be used to it. Let the people who want time off from the game without feeling like they miss out on something have it.

  3. #143
    Quote Originally Posted by VinceVega View Post
    In the end the Mythic+ player will have better gear, than the pure heroic raider.
    But there is nor reason to make a spammable ressource for gear so strong.

    Cap it at 3 runs per week where you are eligabel for loot then i don't mind.
    in the end of patch perhaps, getting fully geared from weekly chest takes AT LEAST 16weeks...

    problem is it already drops LESS gear than raid, so 3 M+ runs per week means most likely no gear... if they cap it at number of 1-2 pieces per week, or increase amount of drops, so it is on par with raid, then it would be fine to cap it, but when the chance you actualy get something is so ridiculously low caping the amount of runs is killing it...

  4. #144
    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    in the end of patch perhaps, getting fully geared from weekly chest takes AT LEAST 16weeks...

    problem is it already drops LESS gear than raid, so 3 M+ runs per week means most likely no gear... if they cap it at number of 1-2 pieces per week, or increase amount of drops, so it is on par with raid, then it would be fine to cap it, but when the chance you actualy get something is so ridiculously low caping the amount of runs is killing it...
    How long does it take to get fully geared from mythic? Around 16 weeks sounds about right for a decent guild. Also I don't see it mentioned enough, but raids bosses are dropping less loot in Shadowlands.

    I do like & agree with your idea of keys higher than 15 dropping higher loot though. If 20s dropped loot closer to mythic iLvl, even with it being infinitely replayable content, the fact it'd only drop one piece would balance the system out.

  5. #145
    Quote Originally Posted by Toybox View Post
    How long does it take to get fully geared from mythic? Around 16 weeks sounds about right for a decent guild. Also I don't see it mentioned enough, but raids bosses are dropping less loot in Shadowlands.

    I do like & agree with your idea of keys higher than 15 dropping higher loot though. If 20s dropped loot closer to mythic iLvl, even with it being infinitely replayable content, the fact it'd only drop one piece would balance the system out.
    its all about luck, you might get lucky or not in raid so perhaps on average it might take 12-16 weeks, HOWEVER, with weekly chest only it takes 16 weeks AT MINIMUM, even if you are luckiest person in the world it cant take less

    i mean that would be most reasonable aproach, let +15 be under HC raid, but allow the gear to scale further up, not necesarry to mythic loot from end chest, but halfway through it or so wouldnt be bad for +20

  6. #146
    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    in the end of patch perhaps, getting fully geared from weekly chest takes AT LEAST 16weeks...

    problem is it already drops LESS gear than raid, so 3 M+ runs per week means most likely no gear... if they cap it at number of 1-2 pieces per week, or increase amount of drops, so it is on par with raid, then it would be fine to cap it, but when the chance you actualy get something is so ridiculously low caping the amount of runs is killing it...
    But you are gauranteed a Mythic level drop each week on top from completing ONE 14 key. You need to kill 3 Mythic bosses to see even one. Normal guilds need about a week per boss to progress most don't even kill one.
    A 14 key is laughable in comparison.
    I was 10 into nylotha mythic and nearly every piece of gear came from the weekly chest not from the raid. I was nearly on mythic ilvl before i stepped foot into a mythic raid. That is just ridicoulus. And they didn't even nerf that part. That part is still in the game.

  7. #147
    If mythic raiding is the most difficult content in the game its obvious that it should give the best rewards.

    Rewards should always equal time and effort.

    Lol imagine these people that want +15 to be equal to mythic because they don't have time to raid if world quests/chests scaled up to +15key ilvl because "lol i dont have time to do mythic dungeons but want the same ilvl" like they want.

    The game is full of angry instant gratification people that wants the best rewards, right away, doing trivial content

  8. #148
    Quote Originally Posted by VinceVega View Post
    But you are gauranteed a Mythic level drop each week on top from completing ONE 14 key. You need to kill 3 Mythic bosses to see even one. Normal guilds need about a week per boss to progress most don't even kill one.
    A 14 key is laughable in comparison.
    I was 10 into nylotha mythic and nearly every piece of gear came from the weekly chest not from the raid. I was nearly on mythic ilvl before i stepped foot into a mythic raid. That is just ridicoulus. And they didn't even nerf that part. That part is still in the game.
    Your guild must be awesome if you had almost mythic ilvl before stepping foot into a mythic raid. Took you 15 weeks to clear heroic?

    Quote Originally Posted by confety View Post
    If mythic raiding is the most difficult content in the game its obvious that it should give the best rewards.

    Rewards should always equal time and effort.
    Well the thing is that it isn't entirely true that mythic raids are the most difficult content. The first ~3 mythic bosses are a complete joke compared to 20+ keys.

    I agree that +15's obviously shouldnt yield mythic level gear, but what about higher keys? And what about the first mythic bosses that even pretty bad guilds can clear? Not to mention the first heroic bosses, which yield better rewards than +15 key while being A LOT easier.

    I mean most guilds clearing heroic bosses during the first week wont have a single group doing +15 in the first week. Doing a +10 is probably as hard (easy) as killing the first hc bosses. Difficulty doesnt match there.

    I Love this change anyway because now I can raid log, but saying that this somehow is about matching the difficulty and reward is nonsense. Blizz just wants to reward raiding and that's it.
    Last edited by facefist; 2020-09-17 at 11:20 AM.

  9. #149
    They wanted to kill split raids? I dont understand why they would do this, this was completely uncalled for. I really hope they revert this changes. I was fine with the fact that you only get one piece of gear at end of dungeon, but scalling the end of dungeon ilvl reward by 8 ilvls compared to heroic is beyond my understanding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bennett View Post
    This is a good thing

    There is a plethora of optional content for you at max level - but seemingly not anywhere near as much content required of you versus BFA or even Legion
    It's already better than WoD because of the existence of m+ (which still gives a mythic quality item per week and you'll maybe wanna farm multiple keys for a bigger loot pool), not to mention the optional content. The extent of optional content in WoD was rep farms and apexis dailies - both of which were completely pointless and unfun

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    So when the game was at its peak then
    So having more options is bad, why ?

  10. #150
    Quote Originally Posted by erifwodahs View Post
    tbc end of the dungeon loot, one peace only which is sub HC level is shit design unless they add another step in the ladder for let's say +20 where you get something between HC and Mythic. On given affixes a +15 in time may be harder to clear than any HC boss early on in the season.
    HC raid you get more and better loot and in M+ you spend more time for less loot.

    Maybe blizz looked at key pushers and said that "they don't do it for loot anyway" which is mostly true later in season but it was better with TF. Removing TF was bad enough hit for M+ runners, now we literally do stuff for no reward what so ever.
    M+ either needs to be lower ilvl than heroic or it needs to have a weekly cap. Demanding infinite heroic level loot is unreasonable and bad design.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  11. #151
    Quote Originally Posted by Toybox View Post
    The weekly Mythic+ cache still gives Mythic Raid iLvl loot, and thanks to the choice system, getting a (near) full loadout of really good item level pieces shouldn't be an issue at all.
    Yes this is true. But dont forget you need to run 10 dungeons at high level to get the access to multiple choices. 10 dungeons at aprox 25-30min per timed dungeon. And you get 1 item per week for that amount of time invested. 1 single item per week. Couse all other rewards while spending all that time means nothing since its slightly higher then normal raids wich are a joke.

  12. #152
    Quote Originally Posted by epLe View Post
    Nothing scares "mythic raiders" more than "casuals" getting equal gear as them.
    Yeah, I agree. Every hockey team should be given the Stanley Cup. People that run a 5k should be given the same exact medal as a marathon runner.
    For equal level content I’d be completely on your side, but people should not be given the same equivalent gear for easier activities. When I took my break from raiding I wasn’t expecting, nor did I think I deserved, the same gear as raiders. That’s just as entitled of a mentality as the people that accuse high end raiders of having.

  13. #153
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    M+ either needs to be lower ilvl than heroic or it needs to have a weekly cap. Demanding infinite heroic level loot is unreasonable and bad design.
    Why would it need to be lower ilvl then heroic when it requires ateast the same effor and ALOT more personal responsability.

  14. #154
    Quote Originally Posted by Nizah View Post
    Yes this is true. But dont forget you need to run 10 dungeons at high level to get the access to multiple choices. 10 dungeons at aprox 25-30min per timed dungeon. And you get 1 item per week for that amount of time invested. 1 single item per week. Couse all other rewards while spending all that time means nothing since its slightly higher then normal raids wich are a joke.
    Normal raids drop 200. M+ drops 210. Heroic raids drop 213. M+ is far closer to heroic raid than normal, so you are already relying on dishonest framing.

    You get 1 item for running 1 +14. Beyond that, you unlock more choices, not more items.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nizah View Post
    Why would it need to be lower ilvl then heroic when it requires ateast the same effor and ALOT more personal responsability.
    It doesn't need to be lower ilvl. It needs to be lower ilvl OR weekly capped like raids are.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eapoe View Post
    Yeah, I agree. Every hockey team should be given the Stanley Cup. People that run a 5k should be given the same exact medal as a marathon runner.
    For equal level content I’d be completely on your side, but people should not be given the same equivalent gear for easier activities. When I took my break from raiding I wasn’t expecting, nor did I think I deserved, the same gear as raiders. That’s just as entitled of a mentality as the people that accuse high end raiders of having.
    You aren't a professional athlete. You are playing a video game with talking pandas.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  15. #155
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    Normal raids drop 200. M+ drops 210. Heroic raids drop 213. M+ is far closer to heroic raid than normal, so you are already relying on dishonest framing.

    You get 1 item for running 1 +14. Beyond that, you unlock more choices, not more items.
    Dishonest farming? are you comparing a players responsability in a m15 with a player responsability in a heroic raid of a 30 men ? If someone in raid fails someone else might pick up and do that for him. He might perform the worst in the raid or even die at the start of the fight and will be able to get a piece of loot if the raids kills the boss. All the "raid wiping abilities" are the biggest most obvious things in the game and everyone can do that. In a m15 if someones makes a mistake and dies there a big chance thats a wipe. Please dont say m+ loot is dishonest farm.

  16. #156
    It's like almost the same as it is right now. Weekly Chests will grant you Mythic quality items.
    M+ highest dungeons grant items slightly lower than Heroic Gear, 3 Itemlevel, and they explained why. Simply because they don't want Heroic items to be tradeable. They try to prevent heavy splits again.

    I think the idea is good, but should only be a thing in week 1.

  17. #157
    Quote Originally Posted by Nizah View Post
    Dishonest farming? are you comparing a players responsability in a m15 with a player responsability in a heroic raid of a 30 men ? If someone in raid fails someone else might pick up and do that for him. He might perform the worst in the raid or even die at the start of the fight and will be able to get a piece of loot if the raids kills the boss. All the "raid wiping abilities" are the biggest most obvious things in the game and everyone can do that. In a m15 if someones makes a mistake and dies there a big chance thats a wipe. Please dont say m+ loot is dishonest farm.
    Yes, it's dishonest to pretend that the number 210 is closer to 200 than it is to 213. This isn't even debatable. This is math.

    You are now dishonestly trying to pretend that I said all this other crap was dishonest when I was obviously only referring to your bad math.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  18. #158
    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    yep, thats why mythic raids give best rewards, even now

    why though HC raid should give better gear than +15? when it comes to difficulty its about the same as +15, but it gives better gear now... why?
    and for +20 or higher its outright stupid...
    Because M+ existing with equal/better rewards destroyed the Heroic raiding scene?
    Why would 5 players find another 5-25 people to play with when they can simply grind dungeons for equal/better rewards?
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

  19. #159
    Quote Originally Posted by Delekii View Post
    No, they weren't. Raiding was extremely niche, very few people did it at all. The power gap between top raiders and entry level players was significantly lower. The attitude toward the game was different.

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    If they are it is a significant 180 on previous discussions. The reason they capped it to 15 is because it gave them lee-way not to balance properly; everyone "could" finish a 15 so who cares about balance. Higher scaling rewards lead to higher scaling balance issues.

    I certainly hope you're right, but it's a decision which opens them up to having to do more work, so I have significant doubts.

    "Raiding was extremely niche, very few people did it at all"

    You're lying or completelt wrong I'm afraid, particularly in Wrath - there was raiding or pvp to progress - that's it
    All the main lore points occured in raids
    All the best gear came from raids

  20. #160
    Quote Originally Posted by confety View Post
    If mythic raiding is the most difficult content in the game its obvious that it should give the best rewards.

    Rewards should always equal time and effort.

    Lol imagine these people that want +15 to be equal to mythic because they don't have time to raid if world quests/chests scaled up to +15key ilvl because "lol i dont have time to do mythic dungeons but want the same ilvl" like they want.

    The game is full of angry instant gratification people that wants the best rewards, right away, doing trivial content
    Mythic raiding is the most difficult content in the game? Based on what? Skill? That only applies to WF raiders. By the time the average Joe hits X boss further down the tier, said boss will have been clubbed to death with the nerfbat. Not to mention the fact that certain mechanics that might have been challenging early on will be irrelevant due to the fact that everyone and their mother outgears the shit out of the encounter. Hearing people that are still 4/12 bosses 5 months into the patch or barely even make it to Cutting Edge tell me that M+ is trivial content makes me laugh out loud. Same people struggle to make it to keystone master let alone push past +20.

    Is it based on time commitment? Should we give out best rewards to the people grinding for shit like the Insane achievement? That takes time.

    Is it based on : "But I have to find 19 other people and it's hard to organize a guild for mythic raiding"? Exactly. That's why Classic is the pinnacle of raiding. You gotta organize 40 people instead of 20. C'thun is way harder than Mythic N'zoth.

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