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  1. #161
    Quote Originally Posted by Rafalga View Post
    Your profile pic. goes so well with your statement that i don't even need to add anything.
    My favorite twitch emote

    On point - you really believe it's harder to get 4 people to not make mistakes versus getting 9+ people to do so?

    That's a very weird thought process

  2. #162
    Quote Originally Posted by Bennett View Post
    "Raiding was extremely niche, very few people did it at all"

    You're lying or completelt wrong I'm afraid, particularly in Wrath - there was raiding or pvp to progress - that's it
    All the main lore points occured in raids
    All the best gear came from raids
    You could farm currency from dungeons for gear, craft pretty great gear, and get nice stuff from reputations.

    Was this gear on par with raiding gear? Generally speaking, it obviously wasn't. However, the game was slow enough with gear that a casual player could progress through those methods and still take a long, long time to be "done". Now, the game practically pummels you over the head with gear so fast that you need to move into raiding or M+ within a couple of weeks or you are out of things to do.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  3. #163
    Quote Originally Posted by Nizah View Post
    They wanted to kill split raids? I dont understand why they would do this, this was completely uncalled for. I really hope they revert this changes. I was fine with the fact that you only get one piece of gear at end of dungeon, but scalling the end of dungeon ilvl reward by 8 ilvls compared to heroic is beyond my understanding.

    - - - Updated - - -



    So having more options is bad, why ?
    You have the same options you had in BFA, arguably more so.

    There is no reason to raid heroic aside from trinkets (if they're even good for you) if you're doing 15s in BFA

    Now in SL there will be

    Raids should always give better gear than dungeons, even at the same difficulty - simply because raids require more time, coordination and actual players

  4. #164
    Quote Originally Posted by facefist View Post
    Your guild must be awesome if you had almost mythic ilvl before stepping foot into a mythic raid. Took you 15 weeks to clear heroic?



    Well the thing is that it isn't entirely true that mythic raids are the most difficult content. The first ~3 mythic bosses are a complete joke compared to 20+ keys.

    I agree that +15's obviously shouldnt yield mythic level gear, but what about higher keys? And what about the first mythic bosses that even pretty bad guilds can clear? Not to mention the first heroic bosses, which yield better rewards than +15 key while being A LOT easier.

    I mean most guilds clearing heroic bosses during the first week wont have a single group doing +15 in the first week. Doing a +10 is probably as hard (easy) as killing the first hc bosses. Difficulty doesnt match there.

    I Love this change anyway because now I can raid log, but saying that this somehow is about matching the difficulty and reward is nonsense. Blizz just wants to reward raiding and that's it.
    So what if it was?
    I think it took us 2 month yes. Thats enough to be near the mythic iLvl overall.

    Mythic+ fucked up the entire gearing process by beeing infinetly repeatable. No other activity yields this much.
    So now you get lower loot while still being viable to gear and once a week a mythic lvl piece.

    This game has thrown around high level gear way too much. When i run one heroic id i can get nothing sometimes. Mythic+ i can run as often as i want. If oyu want to you could be decked out in the first week. That is just a stupid design imho

  5. #165
    The Patient
    Join Date
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    I must have missed a news item, because all the people in favour of this change keep spouting "spam M+ and you'll be geared in a few weeks", but seem oblivious to the fact that they now only drop ONE item at the end, and that item is also a lower ilvl. It is feasible that someone could do 3 M+ runs a week (for a time investment about equal to clearing a heroic raid), get NOTHING, and then end up getting duplicate items for weeks in a row (which, thanks to Wowhead, we know is possible).

    I'm lucky to be in a guild that accepts me joining them for their weekly raid when I can (my job means I work different hours every week, so sometimes I can go weeks at a time and not be able to join them for their raid), M+ kept me from lagging too far behind their ilvls. With these collective changes, that will no longer be the case. Sounds like my arrangement will come to an end with these changes, and since WQs offer no meaningful character progression, perhaps my 16 year journey has come to an end... which is a real shame, because I love WoW.

  6. #166
    Quote Originally Posted by SanitariumZ View Post
    Mythic raiding is the most difficult content in the game? Based on what? Skill? That only applies to WF raiders. By the time the average Joe hits X boss further down the tier, said boss will have been clubbed to death with the nerfbat. Not to mention the fact that certain mechanics that might have been challenging early on will be irrelevant due to the fact that everyone and their mother outgears the shit out of the encounter. Hearing people that are still 4/12 bosses 5 months into the patch or barely even make it to Cutting Edge tell me that M+ is trivial content makes me laugh out loud. Same people struggle to make it to keystone master let alone push past +20.

    Is it based on time commitment? Should we give out best rewards to the people grinding for shit like the Insane achievement? That takes time.

    Is it based on : "But I have to find 19 other people and it's hard to organize a guild for mythic raiding"? Exactly. That's why Classic is the pinnacle of raiding. You gotta organize 40 people instead of 20. C'thun is way harder than Mythic N'zoth.
    Why does the difficulty of +20 and beyond matter in this argument when it doesn't give gear?
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

  7. #167
    Quote Originally Posted by Mystikal View Post
    I must have missed a news item, because all the people in favour of this change keep spouting "spam M+ and you'll be geared in a few weeks", but seem oblivious to the fact that they now only drop ONE item at the end, and that item is also a lower ilvl. It is feasible that someone could do 3 M+ runs a week (for a time investment about equal to clearing a heroic raid), get NOTHING, and then end up getting duplicate items for weeks in a row (which, thanks to Wowhead, we know is possible).

    I'm lucky to be in a guild that accepts me joining them for their weekly raid when I can (my job means I work different hours every week, so sometimes I can go weeks at a time and not be able to join them for their raid), M+ kept me from lagging too far behind their ilvls. With these collective changes, that will no longer be the case. Sounds like my arrangement will come to an end with these changes, and since WQs offer no meaningful character progression, perhaps my 16 year journey has come to an end... which is a real shame, because I love WoW.
    You're ignoring the facts that;

    - you get a chest of guaranteed mythic loot every week
    - since there is no extra effects you only need to get a piece of gear once
    - you're assuming you can do 3 and get no loot, which can happen but is really unlucky and shouldn't be seen as the rule
    - if you're actively trying to gear and it matters to you, you should be doing both the raids and M+, and 3 a week would be pretty minimal effort

  8. #168
    Herald of the Titans Baine's Avatar
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    Won't convince me to do raids. I did not raid in BFA (not even LFR) or M+. It will not change in SL. Will still enjoy the game the way I play it.

  9. #169
    Quote Originally Posted by Mystikal View Post
    I must have missed a news item, because all the people in favour of this change keep spouting "spam M+ and you'll be geared in a few weeks", but seem oblivious to the fact that they now only drop ONE item at the end, and that item is also a lower ilvl. It is feasible that someone could do 3 M+ runs a week (for a time investment about equal to clearing a heroic raid), get NOTHING, and then end up getting duplicate items for weeks in a row (which, thanks to Wowhead, we know is possible).

    I'm lucky to be in a guild that accepts me joining them for their weekly raid when I can (my job means I work different hours every week, so sometimes I can go weeks at a time and not be able to join them for their raid), M+ kept me from lagging too far behind their ilvls. With these collective changes, that will no longer be the case. Sounds like my arrangement will come to an end with these changes, and since WQs offer no meaningful character progression, perhaps my 16 year journey has come to an end... which is a real shame, because I love WoW.
    "If Blizzard doesn't allow me to gear up with minimal effort, I'm leaving!"

    Ok, bye. The game isn't made just for you.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  10. #170
    Quote Originally Posted by VinceVega View Post
    So what if it was?
    I think it took us 2 month yes. Thats enough to be near the mythic iLvl overall.

    Mythic+ fucked up the entire gearing process by beeing infinetly repeatable. No other activity yields this much.
    So now you get lower loot while still being viable to gear and once a week a mythic lvl piece.

    This game has thrown around high level gear way too much. When i run one heroic id i can get nothing sometimes. Mythic+ i can run as often as i want. If oyu want to you could be decked out in the first week. That is just a stupid design imho
    Same for me in Uldir, our guild took a couple of weeks to get into Mythic raids and we d/e most of the loot from the first bosses because large parts of the raid already were at Mythic level loot thanks to weekly chest and titanforge procs.

    Was extremely unsatisfying.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Baine View Post
    Won't convince me to do raids. I did not raid in BFA (not even LFR) or M+. It will not change in SL. Will still enjoy the game the way I play it.
    And that is fine. There are varies gear progress paths across varies activities and difficulties now, which is good no?
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

  11. #171
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    You could farm currency from dungeons for gear, craft pretty great gear, and get nice stuff from reputations.

    Was this gear on par with raiding gear? Generally speaking, it obviously wasn't. However, the game was slow enough with gear that a casual player could progress through those methods and still take a long, long time to be "done". Now, the game practically pummels you over the head with gear so fast that you need to move into raiding or M+ within a couple of weeks or you are out of things to do.
    Sure, you could get power outside of raids - the frozen shodoweave or spellfire set would be examples of very good gear obtainable outside of raids - but generally speaking if you didn't raid in pretty much every expansion other than legion or bfa, you were missing out the core part of max level gameplay

  12. #172
    Quote Originally Posted by Gorsameth View Post
    Why does the difficulty of +20 and beyond matter in this argument when it doesn't give gear?
    Because that's where the real issue is with M+. End of dungeon chest needs to scale better with the difficulty of the keystone. That's what they should have fixed. That and the fact that M+ being spammable would give infinite loot. They could have easily found a workaround for that as well with a system similar to the vision one. As always they found the worst possible solution to a relatively easy-to-fix problem.

  13. #173
    Quote Originally Posted by SanitariumZ View Post
    Because that's where the real issue is with M+. End of dungeon chest needs to scale better with the difficulty of the keystone. That's what they should have fixed. That and the fact that M+ being spammable would give infinite loot. They could have easily found a workaround for that as well with a system similar to the vision one. As always they found the worst possible solution to a relatively easy-to-fix problem.
    Not really.

    It's an infinitely farmable system, it should never come close to top level gear - that would be awful for the game.

  14. #174
    Quote Originally Posted by Bennett View Post
    Sure, you could get power outside of raids - the frozen shodoweave or spellfire set would be examples of very good gear obtainable outside of raids - but generally speaking if you didn't raid in pretty much every expansion other than legion or bfa, you were missing out the core part of max level gameplay
    That's your own value judgement of the content. Plenty of people were perfectly happy never raiding because the alternative advancement systems were paced well enough to give them plenty of things to do. To those people, raids weren't the "core" of anything. This is sort of the crux of the issue: The game used to be designed for lots of different types of players, and now it's designed to funnel people into raids and M+ as fast as possible. People who only want to do those things don't see the issue because they don't realize the value the rest of the game had to the majority of the playerbase. When they took that away, a lot of people lost a lot even though it seemed like nothing to you.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  15. #175
    I'm truly surprised at how many people are trying to put raiding and dungeons on the same level. For obvious reasons dungeons are objectively easier to clear and farm - they shouldn't give the same rewards a raid can, because as BFA shows us it really harms the incentive to raid.

    They're not mutually exclusive content - you can do the raid once a week for the best items you can get at your difficulty level, and M+ inbetween that to sure up the places you didn't get lucky in - now, that doesn't mean you're wrong to just do M+ if you like - that's how I played BFA pretty much, but you shouldn't complain doing only the easier content doesn't give equal rewards (which in a way it still does because of the weekly chest)

  16. #176
    Quote Originally Posted by Bennett View Post
    I'm truly surprised at how many people are trying to put raiding and dungeons on the same level. For obvious reasons dungeons are objectively easier to clear and farm - they shouldn't give the same rewards a raid can, because as BFA shows us it really harms the incentive to raid.

    They're not mutually exclusive content - you can do the raid once a week for the best items you can get at your difficulty level, and M+ inbetween that to sure up the places you didn't get lucky in - now, that doesn't mean you're wrong to just do M+ if you like - that's how I played BFA pretty much, but you shouldn't complain doing only the easier content doesn't give equal rewards (which in a way it still does because of the weekly chest)
    It would be fine for M+ to drop heroic level gear if they added some kind of weekly cap roughly equivalent to how raids are capped.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  17. #177
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    That's your own value judgement of the content. Plenty of people were perfectly happy never raiding because the alternative advancement systems were paced well enough to give them plenty of things to do. To those people, raids weren't the "core" of anything. This is sort of the crux of the issue: The game used to be designed for lots of different types of players, and now it's designed to funnel people into raids and M+ as fast as possible. People who only want to do those things don't see the issue because they don't realize the value the rest of the game had to the majority of the playerbase. When they took that away, a lot of people lost a lot even though it seemed like nothing to you.
    I simply disagree. The game doesn't force people to do anything - you're free to do what you want. You don't have to raid, but that might make gearing slower for you. I see nothing wrong with Blizzard doing nothing about this, it's not their job to tell players what they should and shouldn't want to do in the game.

    You set yourself the goals you want to achieve, and if you don't want to do the necessary content to achieve them - that's fine but that's your choice. I can't be bothered spending dozens of hours a week and hundreds of pulls on mythic bosses, so I don't raid mythic - however I lose the chance of getting the best gear and the cool mythic transmog/ mount stuff by not doing that content. That's fine - that's my choice.

  18. #178
    Quote Originally Posted by Bennett View Post
    I simply disagree. The game doesn't force people to do anything - you're free to do what you want. You don't have to raid, but that might make gearing slower for you. I see nothing wrong with Blizzard doing nothing about this, it's not their job to tell players what they should and shouldn't want to do in the game.

    You set yourself the goals you want to achieve, and if you don't want to do the necessary content to achieve them - that's fine but that's your choice. I can't be bothered spending dozens of hours a week and hundreds of pulls on mythic bosses, so I don't raid mythic - however I lose the chance of getting the best gear and the cool mythic transmog/ mount stuff by not doing that content. That's fine - that's my choice.
    If the game throws gear at you so fast that you trivialize all content except M+ and raids within a couple of weeks, you really aren't free to do whatever you want. What you want is over after two weeks.

    This would be like if the new raid had one boss and when you killed it you got a full set of maxed out gear and then when you complain someone says "Well you can still raid however you want". It's nonsense.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  19. #179
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    If the game throws gear at you so fast that you trivialize all content except M+ and raids within a couple of weeks, you really aren't free to do whatever you want. What you want is over after two weeks.

    This would be like if the new raid had one boss and when you killed it you got a full set of maxed out gear and then when you complain someone says "Well you can still raid however you want". It's nonsense.
    Where are you getting this from? They're deliberately reducing loot acquisition in SL

  20. #180
    Quote Originally Posted by Bennett View Post
    Where are you getting this from? They're deliberately reducing loot acquisition in SL
    They are deliberately reducing loot acquisition in M+ and raids. Since I am talking about people that don't do M+ or raids, what does that have to do with anything?
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

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