Mythic Raiding in SL = all other content not relevant?

[DechCJC]

As long as top level PvP gear can compete with top Mythic gear when actually PvPing, I don't think i'm as bothered as I initially thought I was.

I am not gonna be too chuffed is Mythic raiders are able to get a blatant advantage in arena because of this though.

[Delever]

Thats only true for 8.3 and even there not completely.

Before 8.3 there was titanforging which prevented exactly this problem.

Even after 8.3, mostly in the first 1-2 months, corruptions were so absurdly busted, that a M15 piece with the right corruption outshined a regular mythic raid piece by a lot.

Of, if you only look at the last few months instead of the last 4 years, then yes, there is no difference.

But the thing is that now this is offset by the fact that doing more M+ gives you more choices on loot which arguably gives you even more incentive to do it. You will just be 3 ilvls bellow a heroic raider if you do not raid at all during the gearing process. After a few weeks and a couple weekly chests, you will be the same ilvl as a mythic raider. Perhaps 1-2 ilvls lower counting the high loot from the last 2 bosses.
Is 1-3 ilvls really such a big deal? Should the people doing the highest level content not be rewarded a measly 1-2 item levels higher gear?
Content becomes obsolete and meaningless only when the vast majority of the playerbase can find other easy means of attaining the same or better gear.
And I highly doubt that the vast majority of the player base can clear mythic. Therefore M+ is still going to be incredibly popular amongst the playerbase.

[Eazy]

I see this as an absolute win.

Don't want to farm +15 dungeons 24/7.

[orsraunia]

Since I'm mostly PvP player, I'd love it if it was just this to do every week.

What I would like to do when I log in to WoW? Play arena with my teammates, go do some battlegrounds, duel with friends, do some occasional world PvP. M+ and raids when I'm in the mood. In BFA I had to do A LOT of things, a lot of things that I didn't want to do. There were so many things to do to stay competitive that I didn't had time to do the things that I would like to do. There are actually so many things I'd like to do in this game that I don't have time to do, because I have to do my WoW chores.

I'd like to have more time for transmog runs, for playing my alts, I'd like to try pet battles more than once a year. Hell, maybe I'd even have time to actually raid again because I would do arenas instead of all those dailies and than I would have time to join my guild in raids more often.

Looking forward to less chores and more fun in a video game.

Well said, sir. I feel the same.

[TheLucky1]

WoD has shown that there are many players skilled enough for mythic CE raiding (it's not even close to things like high level fps/starcraft2/mobas anyways), however not everyone of those players had the time (because being an functional adult and stuff) to comfortably! CE raid in Legion/Bfa.

Great changes, M+ and HC raids are still relevant enough + anima/legendarys and so many optional things for cosmetics.

[Donimic]

The weekly Mythic+ cache still gives Mythic Raid iLvl loot, and thanks to the choice system, getting a (near) full loadout of really good item level pieces shouldn't be an issue at all.

it will take over 20weeks to get a full set of doing 15x +15 runs to get a full set, and even longer to get a full set with desirable stats. that is a huge issue.

[Zenfoldor]

They REALLY needed to help raiding after BFA, so to me, this is very very good news.

[Wildpantz]

a mythic+15 is WAY harder then heroic nyalotha not sure hwat they where thinking since mythic+ invvitantional has really popped of way more poppular then pvp

[Toybox]

it will take over 20weeks to get a full set of doing 15x +15 runs to get a full set, and even longer to get a full set with desirable stats. that is a huge issue.

How many weeks does it take to get mythic on farm & start clearing it for a full set? Can't be too far off.

[Accendor]

But the thing is that now this is offset by the fact that doing more M+ gives you more choices on loot which arguably gives you even more incentive to do it. You will just be 3 ilvls bellow a heroic raider if you do not raid at all during the gearing process. After a few weeks and a couple weekly chests, you will be the same ilvl as a mythic raider. Perhaps 1-2 ilvls lower counting the high loot from the last 2 bosses.
Is 1-3 ilvls really such a big deal? Should the people doing the highest level content not be rewarded a measly 1-2 item levels higher gear?
Content becomes obsolete and meaningless only when the vast majority of the playerbase can find other easy means of attaining the same or better gear.
And I highly doubt that the vast majority of the player base can clear mythic. Therefore M+ is still going to be incredibly popular amongst the playerbase.

If you check my opening post you will see that I am specifically talking about what happens when you mythic raid. That is where the problems mainly are.

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I think that this is fair. Minmaxers lost the covenant wars, casual players can lose the ilvl wars.

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... What does minmax vs casuals has to do with that? E.g. I am a minmax and I hate that there is nothing to do for me except raids.

[Nuciek]

No skill required for Alterac.

Half the raid can AFK and still win.
Mythic Raids even 1 person makes a mistake and it can wipe the raid.
So ya.. just a bit different.

Also one mistake can cost you a game in arena and one mistake can cost you a key im M+. Yet you disregard any difficulty level in those just because raids require more people. It's right, they do, but that also means that there's less responsibility per person than there is in smaller grups. Different content = different "skill set".

Just tell me, do you think that killing first few bosses on mythic Ny'alotha is harder than finishing +30 key or getting Gladiator?

Also what's harder, winning Champions League (11v11) or Wimbledon (1v1) ?

[Echeyakee]

This might be good, depending on stat distribution on raid gear.

The high ilvl of m+ EoD chest rewards really screwed with gear progression in 8.3. My last char, by the time it stepped in to heroic raid (around ilvl 450), only needed 3 pieces of gear from the entire raid. Could of been 1, if I spammed more m+.

But let's be honest, the 5 ilvl mattered very little in 8.3 and the 3 ilvl will matter even less in 9.0. Also, the 13 ilvl steps are damn weird. Why not go with 12 and make it much tidier?

[TEHPALLYTANK]

It's like Blizzard learns nothing, ever. It's actually kind of impressive. So for me as a Mythic raider what this means is that I'll login for my weekly raid, logout, and not touch WoW until the following week. How amazingly boring. I was already not very excited for SL and this just puts the interest meter somewhere around 0. They went from a fuckton of optional content that had the potential to be rewarding in Legion to "lol raid log, nothing else is worth it." in SL. Absolutely massive step backwards.

They created an alternative to raiding in M+ and it was actually quite good and now they're crippling it.

You're acting as if M+ is somehow being removed, when it isn't. You can still push high keys in SL and be rewarded for it, you just aren't going to be showered in loot from every single run. If you enjoy M+ I don't see why you'd complain about having to do more of it. If you don't enjoy M+, but you just liked getting easy loot, then it isn't really fair to claim you liked M+.

[Delever]

If you check my opening post you will see that I am specifically talking about what happens when you mythic raid. That is where the problems mainly are.

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... What does minmax vs casuals has to do with that? E.g. I am a minmax and I hate that there is nothing to do for me except raids.

Ok... I just checked it again to make sure I m not missing anything. And I still do not get how that is different than any other expansion. Except if you count running stuff for a slim chance at getting the drop you want with another slim chance on top of getting the right corruption with another slim chance of it being the correct corruption rank with another slim chance of it being titanforged.
Most of the people did not like titanforging and all this rng bullshit. There is plenty of things to do to progress your character. Except now its not rng based. A game where there is literally nothing else but raiding in order to progress your characters power is Classic.

[Toybox]

... What does minmax vs casuals has to do with that? E.g. I am a minmax and I hate that there is nothing to do for me except raids.

There's plenty to do - you just don't see the value in it if there's no gear reward. Besides, with the m+ cache being the best it's ever been, there's always going to be value in doing M+ for progression.

[TEHPALLYTANK]

it will take over 20weeks to get a full set of doing 15x +15 runs to get a full set, and even longer to get a full set with desirable stats. that is a huge issue.

How is that a huge issue? That doesn't sound any different than raiding to me. I don't remember getting a full set of BiS gear for literally any tier other than Dragon Soul (and even then, I only reached full BiS about 3 weeks before the MoP pre-patch). Most tiers it took me anywhere from 10-24 weeks to get about 70% of the pieces I was aiming for, and this is counting WotLK through all of MoP and the first tier of WoD and Legion (I don't remember if I actually raided throughout all of WoD, and I quit during Legion).

Raiders always had to deal with time gates on RNG, the fact that M+ allowed players to skip those time gates is the only part of this scenario that was screwy, and it is finally being corrected.

[deenman]

And you really think in this day and age, that they would survive on that sort of mentality? They evolve their systems for a reason, demographic shifts over time and it never stays the same. Not everybody wants to raid and log off bro, nor do we have the time to be stuck on a schedule as if it was a second job.

BC and Wrath were successful, in an era that is not the same as today's era of MMO players. What worked 10 years ago, won't be guaranteed to work today.

have you seen how popular wrath servers are?people are crazy about it,there are private servers out there with more players than other mmo's

[Krimzin]

Also one mistake can cost you a game in arena and one mistake can cost you a key im M+. Yet you disregard any difficulty level in those just because raids require more people. It's right, they do, but that also means that there's less responsibility per person than there is in smaller grups. Different content = different "skill set".

Just tell me, do you think that killing first few bosses on mythic Ny'alotha is harder than finishing +30 key or getting Gladiator?

Also what's harder, winning Champions League (11v11) or Wimbledon (1v1) ?

An MMO isnt a single player game, so Wimbledon reference is moot.

I personally think they Mythic+ should continue to give higher ilvl gear and once you pass Mythic+20-25 it should be same ilvl as Mythic raiding. Mythic+15 as easy as Heroic raids so it shouldn't give higher ilvl gear. Blizzard stopping Mythic+ gear at 15 is a mistake in my opinion. Other than bragging rights, Mythic+ 16 and above is pointless. If you want people to push content, you need to reward them for pushing it.

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and mythic raiding currently DOES reward best gear...
but after this change even HC raiding, which is middle tier, will reward better gear than any m+ keys even the "top" keys... and that is just stupid...

I think you will see a change. I think they are prepping to raise the ilvl on gear above 15.

[Delekii]

BC and Wrath were very raid or die, which is what I referring to

No, they weren't. Raiding was extremely niche, very few people did it at all. The power gap between top raiders and entry level players was significantly lower. The attitude toward the game was different.

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An MMO isnt a single player game, so Wimbledon reference is moot.

I personally think they Mythic+ should continue to give higher ilvl gear and once you pass Mythic+20-25 it should be same ilvl as Mythic raiding. Mythic+15 as easy as Heroic raids so it shouldn't give higher ilvl gear. Blizzard stopping Mythic+ gear at 15 is a mistake in my opinion. Other than bragging rights, Mythic+ 16 and above is pointless. If you want people to push content, you need to reward them for pushing it.

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I think you will see a change. I think they are prepping to raise the ilvl on gear above 15.

If they are it is a significant 180 on previous discussions. The reason they capped it to 15 is because it gave them lee-way not to balance properly; everyone "could" finish a 15 so who cares about balance. Higher scaling rewards lead to higher scaling balance issues.

I certainly hope you're right, but it's a decision which opens them up to having to do more work, so I have significant doubts.

[tyrlaan]

honest question, please let's discuss this without hate.

from what i have heard and seen on the beta only renown (~1h/week) and Torghast (also ~1h per week) offer Character progression.

In addition to that we just learned that m+ gear will be before heroic raid gear.

this means that if you raid mythic, your are done with all your weekly stuff in 2-3h (depending if you choose to do 1 m+ for the cache).

ofc you could also do more m+ for more item selection, but this is very, very inefficient. still posdible tho.

i understand many people like this, because they are free to do other things ingame now. my personal problem here is, that I am actually only really interested in things that offer Character progression and those are now heavily timegated.

do i miss something? is there really nothing to do at max level besides the things I listed? would be a shame if this becomes a raidlogging expansion.

As someone who probably will not raid this expansion, I personally have no issue with how things are laid out. I'll have plenty to keep me busy.

I feel like if the only thing you want to do is get the best gear, and the best gear is in the raid, then you're good to go and I'd personally prefer raiders whipping out the time honored tradition of complaining there's "no content" rather than complaining about how they need to do these 50 other things just so they can raid.