Mythic Raiding in SL = all other content not relevant?

[TEHPALLYTANK]

nobody denies that, thats why it alwyas did, currently does and will in future reward best loot...
heroic on the other hand, is way easier, and is definitely not harder than +15 or higher keys, so why on earth it should reward better loot?

It doesn't, the weekly chest provides up a choice from 3 items@226 ilvl from doing M+, and last I checked 226>213. M+ is at least on par with Mythic raiding in terms of loot rewarded on a weekly lockout, and well ahead of Heroic raiding. M+ is superior to normal raids, and for some slots it will still be on par with heroic raid gear due to itemization. Being 3 ilvls higher with your two worst stats versus a 210 item that has your two best stats, you're probably going to be using the lower ilvl item. Same with certain trinkets, the effects are going to far outweigh the mere 3 ilvl difference.
(Source of the numbers I'm using)


The only major difference is you can't spam M+ to match the ilvl of heroic raid gear, you're stuck like everyone else on the weekly lockout system for your best pieces. Welcome to the world of gearing that raiders always have had to face: Weekly lockouts, sorry that you're too impatient to deal with something that every raider has to cope with.

The upside is you can still get ahead of Heroic raiders in ilvl by decking yourself in 210 in every slot within a single week (I don't recommend doing it, but you will be able to if you desire). Heroic raiders cannot get a full set of 213 from a single week, it literally is impossible even if you get an item from every single boss and none of the items overlap on slots.

As to why I think raiding should reward better loot than M+: It requires logistical organization that far exceeds that of M+, and that effort shouldn't be discounted as having no value. The challenge of finding or organizing 4 people isn't remotely comparable to finding 10+ people, or arranging for 10+ people to meet the same schedule(depending on if you're pugging or doing organized raiding).

[Soluna]

If you check my opening post you will see that I am specifically talking about what happens when you mythic raid. That is where the problems mainly are.

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... What does minmax vs casuals has to do with that? E.g. I am a minmax and I hate that there is nothing to do for me except raids.

Only there is. You can get gladiator, you can push keys, you can do pet battle dungeons or collect achievements and mounts. Not sure where is the problem?

[Kralljin]

So basically you could get kara-quality gear. Or you could raid if you wanted anything better.

Then read again.

heroics were on par / superior to a lot of T4 items, Craftables sometimes lasted into T6.

[Accendor]

Only there is. You can get gladiator, you can push keys, you can do pet battle dungeons or collect achievements and mounts. Not sure where is the problem?

None of that rewards character progression

[Mystikal]

"If Blizzard doesn't allow me to gear up with minimal effort, I'm leaving!"

Ok, bye. The game isn't made just for you.

That isn't at all what I said, please learn to read and don't strawman.

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You're ignoring the facts that;

- you get a chest of guaranteed mythic loot every week
- since there is no extra effects you only need to get a piece of gear once
- you're assuming you can do 3 and get no loot, which can happen but is really unlucky and shouldn't be seen as the rule
- if you're actively trying to gear and it matters to you, you should be doing both the raids and M+, and 3 a week would be pretty minimal effort

In response to your first two points - yes, there is a chest with a guaranteed piece of loot per week, and yes you only need to get a slot filled once, however, we know that duplicates can happen. Even if they didn't, it would take 4 months (!) to get fully geared that way, but it could take even longer with dupes. That's a major shift too far in the other direction from BfA.

Regarding your third point, you have a 1 in 5 chance of getting loot or, conversely, a 4 in 5 chance of NOT getting loot. It's really not that unlikely that you could do your 3 runs and get nothing.

As to your last point, yes, I'll do what M+ runs I can, but you obviously didn't read my whole post, or you'd know why doing the raids is (and will continue to be) difficult for me. I have a guild that is willing to let me come along when I can make it but, at some point, a low ilvl cannot be completely compensated for by skill, and I become a burden to them. In Legion and BfA, the higher amount of loot (and the presence of warforging and titanforging) meant I could keep the ilvl gap to an acceptable minimum. The changes to M+ in SL could easily make it so that I am too far behind (with no chance of recovery) after only a few weeks. I don't want to leave my friends, and no serious guild would accept me as a member based on my random availability, which would leave me only the option of WQs and grinding M+ ad nauseum... not exactly my idea of fun.

[mmocfd1b0ab5a3]

Wotlk, yes, TBC, no.

You could progress pretty far in TBC without ever touching a raid, heroics were on par / superior to a lot of T4 items, Craftables sometimes lasted into T6.
Not to mention all the badge stuff you could buy later on, which you could farm without doing raids.

And obviously PvP provided a decent alternative as well.

So it was raid or die. If you had mostly T5 equivalent gear by crafting you were still far behind raiders who had T6/Sunwell gear. It's like rocking with 450 ilvl in retail while mythic raiders have 480 ilvl.

[Oflex]

That isn't at all what I said, please learn to read and don't strawman.

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In response to your first two points - yes, there is a chest with a guaranteed piece of loot per week, and yes you only need to get a slot filled once, however, we know that duplicates can happen. Even if they didn't, it would take 4 months (!) to get fully geared that way, but it could take even longer with dupes. That's a major shift too far in the other direction from BfA.

Regarding your third point, you have a 1 in 5 chance of getting loot or, conversely, a 4 in 5 chance of NOT getting loot. It's really not that unlikely that you could do your 3 runs and get nothing.

As to your last point, yes, I'll do what M+ runs I can, but you obviously didn't read my whole post, or you'd know why doing the raids is (and will continue to be) difficult for me. I have a guild that is willing to let me come along when I can make it but, at some point, a low ilvl cannot be completely compensated for by skill, and I become a burden to them. In Legion and BfA, the higher amount of loot (and the presence of warforging and titanforging) meant I could keep the ilvl gap to an acceptable minimum. The changes to M+ in SL could easily make it so that I am too far behind (with no chance of recovery) after only a few weeks. I don't want to leave my friends, and no serious guild would accept me as a member based on my random availability, which would leave me only the option of WQs and grinding M+ ad nauseum... not exactly my idea of fun.

Well with your limited availability, what makes you think that you deserve to be as geared as the players who put the time and effort in to farming BIS gear? This isn't "everyone get's a prize for showing up". Just because you are raiding mythic does not mean you will immediately get BIS gear - I've seen players go entire tiers in raids and not get the loot they need because it just never drops off the boss. This is what an MMO is. Blizzard catered to the casuals a bit too much and now there are entitlement issues. Don't let the door hit you when you unsub.

[Kralljin]

So it was raid or die. If you had mostly T5 equivalent gear by crafting you were still far behind raiders who had T6/Sunwell gear.

It's not like you could buy even more badge gear in 2.3 and 2.4, said badge gear was again equivalent to T5 / T6 loot.
Not to mention that PvP gear remained equivalent to its respective PvE counterpart (albeit slightly worse for some specs).

If you want to see what "Raid or die" actually means, look towards Wotlk and Cata, there you were screwed if you didn't want to raid past 5man dungeons.

If your definition of "Raid or die" is "you have to raid for BiS gear" then said definition is the MO of WoW since its inception.

[LilSaihah]

To be honest, good. I prefer expansions where there's less content that you need to do to progress your character. Legion and BFA have both proved that the infinite progression treadmill is not something that players enjoy that much.

I honestly just hope that Torghast is fun. I do not give one iota of a crap about anything else the game has to offer. If there's too much you need to do to do well in Torghast outside of Torghast, Blizzard fucked up. I can handle "two raid sessions a week".

[Mystikal]

Well with your limited availability, what makes you think that you deserve to be as geared as the players who put the time and effort in to farming BIS gear? This isn't "everyone get's a prize for showing up". Just because you are raiding mythic does not mean you will immediately get BIS gear - I've seen players go entire tiers in raids and not get the loot they need because it just never drops off the boss. This is what an MMO is. Blizzard catered to the casuals a bit too much and now there are entitlement issues. Don't let the door hit you when you unsub.

Because I'm still capable of doing heroic raids skill wise, but because my real life means I can't get on at the same time every week, my character progression should just stop after a couple weeks' worth of World Quest rewards? I'm not asking for a participation prize, as you put it, I'm simply asking for a means to remain near to my friends' ilvls (not necessarily equal to) that doesn't involve spamming M+ endlessly when I am online, to the exclusion of all else. If Blizzard feels that the ilvls from M+ drops must be lower, fine, but don't also reduce the chance of actually getting loot to almost zero. There is a comfortable middle ground where people like me can still maintain a decent level of gear without having to spend all our free time in M+ dungeons, whilst also allowing regular heroic and mythic raiders to enjoy a higher ilvl. Simply saying "fuck you" to people like me isn't good for the health of the game. Blizzard needs to learn the meaning of "middle ground".

[Soluna]

None of that rewards character progression

Tough luck. World top 100 raiders also don't want to be pigeonholed into specific covenants but guilds will force them if they want to stay competitive. I think a better reward for that matter is definitely a step in the right direction.

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Because I'm still capable of doing heroic raids skill wise, but because my real life means I can't get on at the same time every week, my character progression should just stop after a couple weeks' worth of World Quest rewards? I'm not asking for a participation prize, as you put it, I'm simply asking for a means to remain near to my friends' ilvls (not necessarily equal to) that doesn't involve spamming M+ endlessly when I am online, to the exclusion of all else. If Blizzard feels that the ilvls from M+ drops must be lower, fine, but don't also reduce the chance of actually getting loot to almost zero. There is a comfortable middle ground where people like me can still maintain a decent level of gear without having to spend all our free time in M+ dungeons, whilst also allowing regular heroic and mythic raiders to enjoy a higher ilvl. Simply saying "fuck you" to people like me isn't good for the health of the game. Blizzard needs to learn the meaning of "middle ground".

You can just pug heroic raids.

[Mystikal]

You can just pug heroic raids.

Not according to a lot of the posters in this thread. According to them, pugging a +15 is "far, far, far easier" than pugging a heroic raid. Not to mention the fact, who is going to take an undergeared character to a random heroic PuG? The vast majority of PuGs want a character with Curve and an ilvl equal to (if not greater) than what the raid actually drops.

In addition, all the posts of "don't forget the weekly chest, lulz" seem to be based on the assumption that we will all be clearing +15s in time from week 1 of M+ being available. That simply won't be the case and, ironically, will only be possible for those who are gearing from heroic raids. If, like me, you can't raid every week, then your ilvl is going to be severely throttled by the much lower chance of actually getting loot from M+, and your weekly reward will more likely be a 213 piece, the same ilvl as heroic (not mythic) raids, which heroic raiders will be flooded with. The only reliable source of gearing will be World Quests (ugh) and heroic dungeons, neither of which will allow you to push all the way up to a +15.

Realistically, heroic and mythic raiders will be 'done' with gearing in about 6-10 weeks, whereas those who cannot raid will never be 'done', as the frequency and quality of loot will be far too low. The reduced loot drops will also make it less efficient to grind M+ constantly, so the vast majority will do the 4 required for their 2 items of choice in the weekly quest, and will then stop for the week. This will add a further barrier where, if you do not get your runs done early in the week, you will be left struggling to find groups to get your own done.

These changes are just poorly thought out by Blizzard. Either reduce frequency or quality, but not both.

[Baconeggcheese]

They don't need to cap out much differently than where they do now. They just need to not drown you the minute you hit max level. Heroic dungeons ARE an endgame group activity, so this isn't about negating all endgame grouping. It's about that running a heroic is a pointless waste of time, when it used to be something people did for a long time to gear up.

Yeah that all seems pretty agreeable, so I'm confused how the convo became about not wanting people to have a game to play?

This really just sounds like you don't want to accept what are clear as day numbers. Just throwing random questions out doesn't defeat data. If you have data that shows otherwise, present it, but no amount of "but uh but uh but uh" is ever going to actually be more reliable than data.

But they're not random questions, they're thought out questions. I remember them from back then because those were the exact kind of discussions that were happening back when we had the data.

You can go down this rabbit hole all day using steam statistics. The number of people who complete a game vs the total that have bought it is always a fraction. But a lot of people will have those easy to get achievements from early on into the game, even then its only a fraction of the number of total people who bought it.

Apply the assumptions your making to any of those games based on similar statistics, it'll start to sound really silly really fast.

[shimerra]

Actually... i find this a good change? Raiding should be rewarding! you spend allot more time in raids then Mythic+
Also no titanforging? no corruption shit? i can have a best in slot list again!?
Hell i thought atleast the socket will suck but you can buy a item enhancer for that 2!

So now i can finally play multiple chars and not be gimped on any of them!
Finally! there should be a moment when you get that last item and think to yourself. it's DONE best item on every slot. every raid boss dead! highest possible dps Simmed for that last time!

Now to take a more casual playing style and enjoy an alt or rolfstomping some easy dunguons with non mythic raiding friends.

You could do exactly all of that before. I had the most Alts in legion than I did in probably any point in the game and every single one of them was able to get raid ready in a week or two tops after hitting max level. Christ Vanilla was probably the last time gearing/leveling an alt took effort but.


Seems like for whatever reason you're just sexually aroused by the idea of a single BiS list. Seek help, because your own weird neurosis was the only thing stopping you from enjoying casual play in past expansions.

[Volatilis]

I love how mythic raiders go on about how ilvl doesnt matter in world content. Like people dont want to run content and test themselves like soloing dungeons or soloing older mythic raids where gear certainly does help. And yea doing world quests faster is obviously something someone would want to work towards as they progress their character in an rpg.

If gear doesnt matter why do you need it for mythic raiding as well? Just use your skill and 20 raid roster synergy epicness to beat lines of code.

[Baconeggcheese]

I love how mythic raiders go on about how ilvl doesnt matter in world content. Like people dont want to run content and test themselves like soloing dungeons or soloing older mythic raids where gear certainly does help. And yea doing world quests faster is obviously something someone would want to work towards as they progress their character in an rpg.

If gear doesnt matter why do you need it for mythic raiding as well? Just use your skill and 20 raid roster synergy epicness to beat lines of code.

Dungeons and old mythic raids aren't world content by the by, you've come to a really odd conclusion here.

[Soluna]

Not according to a lot of the posters in this thread. According to them, pugging a +15 is "far, far, far easier" than pugging a heroic raid. Not to mention the fact, who is going to take an undergeared character to a random heroic PuG? The vast majority of PuGs want a character with Curve and an ilvl equal to (if not greater) than what the raid actually drops.

In addition, all the posts of "don't forget the weekly chest, lulz" seem to be based on the assumption that we will all be clearing +15s in time from week 1 of M+ being available. That simply won't be the case and, ironically, will only be possible for those who are gearing from heroic raids. If, like me, you can't raid every week, then your ilvl is going to be severely throttled by the much lower chance of actually getting loot from M+, and your weekly reward will more likely be a 213 piece, the same ilvl as heroic (not mythic) raids, which heroic raiders will be flooded with. The only reliable source of gearing will be World Quests (ugh) and heroic dungeons, neither of which will allow you to push all the way up to a +15.

Realistically, heroic and mythic raiders will be 'done' with gearing in about 6-10 weeks, whereas those who cannot raid will never be 'done', as the frequency and quality of loot will be far too low. The reduced loot drops will also make it less efficient to grind M+ constantly, so the vast majority will do the 4 required for their 2 items of choice in the weekly quest, and will then stop for the week. This will add a further barrier where, if you do not get your runs done early in the week, you will be left struggling to find groups to get your own done.

These changes are just poorly thought out by Blizzard. Either reduce frequency or quality, but not both.

You know what else is poorly thought out? Covenant implementation. But since I am getting effed by blizz on that department, I am glad that non raiders get something to cry about too

As for pugging, get ready for it to be even harder to join pugs for anyone that chooses 'character identity' over player power!

I honestly cannot wait for all these ''RPG lovers'' to realise just how wrong it is to cage players like that, after they get a full taste of the pugging community on live.

[Volatilis]

Dungeons and old mythic raids aren't world content by the by, you've come to a really odd conclusion here.

ok then, "content outside of one raid difficulty"

[Baconeggcheese]

ok then, "content outside of one raid difficulty"

But that doesn't fit the rest of your post since no one says that ilvl doesn't matter outside of one raid difficulty.

[Volatilis]

But that doesn't fit the rest of your post since no one says that ilvl doesn't matter outside of one raid difficulty.

except they do. In this very thread.

Let me quote you one.

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I wouldn't say that they're not relevant. More, I'd say that M+ will still be main thing(at least at start) to gear up asap. But then? Just do whatever you think it's the best for you, because the ilvl drop would be the same.







Because that's the place where it matters the most. Who cares if you kill mobs on the WQuests 0,5-2 seconds faster than other classes? Who cares if you one-shot people at 1400 rating that have no idea how to counter your combo? Who cares if you finish +3 with "3 drops"?

No one.

Because it doesn't matter. The lower skill content doesn't matter. People are not racing in who kills the first 3 normal bosses ASAP. Why? Because 90% of the WoW community can do it(probably without even any preparation with LFR gear). While less than 1% participate in the world first race. The highest contents require balance, because there only player should matter, his dedication, his commitment, his preparation.

That's the reason why it should be balanced there - on the highest ilvl/skill content.

But that doesn't fit the rest of your post since no one says that ilvl doesn't matter outside of one raid difficulty.

Like this one for example