Mythic Raiding in SL = all other content not relevant?

[spalernTJ]

As a holy priest main, I am so happy to know that i will be able to get my best loot from the content I excel at, considering Holy Priest is garbage in M+, and I don't like PvP, I'm pretty happy.

[scelero]

Why do I have a feeling there will be the following scenerio....

Optimized 210-226 [M+] >>>>> Non Optimized 213-220 [Heroic Raid]

All this does is nerf high end farmers (mythic raiders) and promotes mid-range players (casual norm/heroic raiders) to farm instead.

If you thought it was painful pugging in BfA and IO. Imagine doing it without all the try hards in Shadowlands.

There needs to be incentive for high end players to farm M+. Now there isn't.

[callipygoustp]

The fewer the options the better in games. I like my games with as few options as possible. This step backwards is going to be great for WoW.

[MrLachyG]

the changes to M+ loot simply means that the end of week chest becomes the focus rather than the gear you get from the end of the dungeon run. my main query is whether or not it will be possible to overgear M+; as the keys will be tuned for a certain ilvl (which one would assume would be around the ilvl of what you get from the end of the dungeon run) and therefore a fully geared heroic/mythic raider will steamroll through a 15 key

[GringoD]

It's on par with mythics if you can clear a +15, which very few people will be doing in the first few weeks. Once you get to the level where you can comfortably do so, it will then take four months to get fully geared(...)

Do you think people clear mythic raids on the first few weeks? How long do you think mythic raiders need to fully equip?
M+ players will take significantly less time to deck out than on live with the new chest.

In the meantime, whilst you're doing all this, your chances of actually getting loot at the end of a M+ have been obliterated. (...) I would be perfectly happy with a slightly reduced ilvl if the drop rates remained the same. Instead, whilst my friends and guildies are getting regular heroic gear week after week, I will be stuck with the highest keys I can manage in the first few weeks / months (and since there are no other decent sources of gear outside of raids in SL, it could well be months), working to get to a level where I can clear +15 reliably and regularly. Once I reach that point, I then have a four month treadmill In the meantime, my friends have been fully heroic geared for weeks and have unsubbed til the next patch.

Look at you poor thing, having a harder time of spamming M+ to get geared out within the first week.
Depending on how many M+ you run, heroic raiders will take longer to deck out. Boss lockouts exist.

(...), and that is assuming that not a single one of your options is a duplicate.(...), all the while praying for no duplicates.

The tear-jerk talk of duplicates is disgusting when the weekly chest is so much better than what we have on live.

Blizzard needs to learn how to balance things better. If they're going to go ahead with these changes, then the scaling of keys up to 15 needs to be drastically reduced so that non-raiders can reach +15 levels sooner. Failing that, reinstate the frequency of drops and keep the reduced ilvls. There are options available which don't completely screw over those who can't raid.

Are you seriously begging for handouts? Blizz needs to provide you with your free mythic level loot?

[Whiskeyjac]

The fewer the options the better in games. I like my games with as few options as possible. This step backwards is going to be great for WoW.

Arguably its true though you mean to be sarcastic. Having a linear progression path would benefit far more players then the current method of simply adding difficulty modes to the game.

It might also clamp down on this weird mentality of "because I do A for twenty hours I deserve the rewards of doing B"

[Baconeggcheese]

sure if you ignore "Because that's the place where it matters the most. Who cares if you kill mobs on the WQuests 0,5-2 seconds faster than other classes? Who cares if you one-shot people at 1400 rating that have no idea how to counter your combo? Who cares if you finish +3 with "3 drops"?

No one."

No one cares about ilvl for world quests is what hes implying and a lot of people that want to dictate how the game is played because they need to feel shiny and new with their mythic gear think this way. Never mind if it leads to bad decisions for the entire playerbase like the reduction in m+ loot because they whined about being forced to grind it. I mean come on. That is an actual example of no one forcing you do that but your self.

Well i care about doing world quests over and over quicker and im sure a lot of other people do so yeah

I think you're being naive if you think the M+ change really has anything to do with catering to mythic raiders.

Reminds me of people blaming raids in WoD for the lack of outdoor content when blizzard made the decision to funnel the entirety of the outdoor world content through the garrison mission table at a time when idle games were trending.

There's a reason why there has historically been loot lockouts on higher end loot since the games inception. Allowing people to infinitely grind high ilvl loot is a recent thing and this change doesn't do anything to stop that. It just makes it take longer, meaning the people you're talking about will have to grind more to achieve the same result. Which they'll do.

[Mystikal]

Are you seriously begging for handouts? Blizz needs to provide you with your free mythic level loot?

No, can you not read? I am asking for a compromise other than making non-raiders face a 6 month treadmill to gear up every patch cycle. No, of course heroic and mythic raiders will not be clearing entire raids in week 1 of release, but they will be clearing several bosses each week and getting immediate rewards in terms of items received. On the other side, those who don't raid will realistically get 1 piece of loot per week from their chest, which they have to wait until the reset to actually obtain. Raiders will have access to both. Don't you think that's just a little too punishing for the non-raiders? I am suggesting a compromise of current rate of gear drops at reduced ilvls, which doesn't invalidate either game mode.

Also, regarding duplicates, it will not feel great to ever get them and, when you only really have a choice of 1 option in your chest if you don't raid (because your extra choices in your chest if you solely run M+ will all be lower ilvl than your highest key cleared, unless you clear about 15 keys per week), you are running into an increased chance of getting dupes... especially since, if you don't raid, there are no other sources of gear upgrades in the week.

[Gigantique]

HOW IS IT DIFFERENT FROM NOW??????
Like now if you spam it you get HEROIC ilvl gear. In SL you ll get ONLY 3 ilvls bellow.
in BOTH SL and BfA you only get mythic raid gear lvl from the weekly chest.
How did they ruin your precious structure? You ll be getting mythic gear from +15 just like before and you ll have even more choices now if you do more M+s

Did they not nerf the amount of items dropped to 1 item per dungeon as well? Combined with a lower ilvl makes overgearing the raid pretty much impossible, which in todays world is the only way to clear heroic with a pug that doesn't involve a lot of facepalming on my side.

The change to the weekly cache is definitely great, but it will now also mean I have to do 10 dungeons to gey 3 choices, and those dungeons will give a total of 10 pieces of loot distributed to most likely 45 unique players? (assuming 100% new pugs + me) Now that smells like a lot of disappointments!

[Baconeggcheese]

No, can you not read? I am asking for a compromise other than making non-raiders face a 6 month treadmill to gear up every patch cycle. No, of course heroic and mythic raiders will not be clearing entire raids in week 1 of release, but they will be clearing several bosses each week and getting immediate rewards in terms of items received. On the other side, those who don't raid will realistically get 1 piece of loot per week from their chest, which they have to wait until the reset to actually obtain. Raiders will have access to both. Don't you think that's just a little too punishing for the non-raiders? I am suggesting a compromise of current rate of gear drops at reduced ilvls, which doesn't invalidate either game mode.

Also, regarding duplicates, it will not feel great to ever get them and, when you only really have a choice of 1 option in your chest if you don't raid (because your extra choices in your chest if you solely run M+ will all be lower ilvl than your highest key cleared, unless you clear about 15 keys per week), you are running into an increased chance of getting dupes... especially since, if you don't raid, there are no other sources of gear upgrades in the week.

Honestly I think its not healthy that they're rewarding people with mythic level loot from the chest without having to do anything near mythic level content.

At the same time I also think if they really want M+ to be a alternative progression path for players who don't want to raid then they need to support it better than what they're doing and give mythic quality loot for completing comparable challenges. Like if someones timing dungeons in the twenties I see no reason they shouldn't be getting mythic ilvl rewards.

BUT!! being able to infinitely grind loot in M+ is a massive problem if we want M+ to be a alternative progression path, since other forms of high end content are all on loot lockouts (with good reason).

Brainstorming a bit I think horrific visions reward structure seems like a fairly good candidate for modeling what M+ could look like. You can keep getting loot for each difficulty of visions you're doing, up to that cap, and if you keep doing it you can get the lower tiers of loot below that. Much like how you can clear a raid on each difficulty. I think you take that idea and adjust it a bit for M+. You can get higher ilvls as you go up just like currently but make them more appropriate for the M+ levels challenge, make the lockouts based on how high you're pushing, and then figure out how often it pays out how much loot so that its comparable for the 5 people as it is in raid for say 20 people in raid for a comparable amount of time investment and challenge.

And imo it should keep rewarding loot as long as you're managing to continue to push higher. So if you're pushing M+ and say your group is very good and you manage to push a +20 this week you get a chance to get loot along the way. And if you push past that next week and manage a +22 you're getting another piece. And keep those pieces rolling, if a group manages to complete a +30 they should still get a chance at rewards as that is an appropriate achievement.

BUT! you also take the weekly chest reward down to the same ilvl as the content you're completing as opposed to above it. Especially because its now giving you a choice of a single piece out of potentially 9 options without a chance for duplicates which makes it waaaay too efficient for gearing. If you're completing heroic raids it should be dropping heroic equivalent loot, and if you're doing mythic raids it should drop mythic equivalent loot... likewise if you're doing a +15 it should probably be dropping around heroic ilvl loot, but if you're doing a say (arbitrary number) 20+ it should be dropping mythic ilvl loot.

*Maybe* it drops a few item levels higher to keep it exciting, but not a complete tier up like it currently does. They could also do something like give it its own unique loot in the pool, so that there is that sort of "titanforge / legendary" potential moment with something rare but it doesn't necessarily have to be outright power. It could just be an equivalent item with a unique model, or have a unique visual effect, or have some kind of small QoL attached to it, etc etc etc.

iono, that was a long ramble.

Did they not nerf the amount of items dropped to 1 item per dungeon as well? Combined with a lower ilvl makes overgearing the raid pretty much impossible, which in todays world is the only way to clear heroic with a pug that doesn't involve a lot of facepalming on my side.

Frankly that's a good thing, as the current status quo is horrible for pacing. The path of least resistance should not be doing trivial content until you're geared up enough to over gear content. That's not healthy for the game.

The change to the weekly cache is definitely great, but it will now also mean I have to do 10 dungeons to gey 3 choices, and those dungeons will give a total of 10 pieces of loot distributed to most likely 45 unique players? (assuming 100% new pugs + me) Now that smells like a lot of disappointments!

The total number of potential players is pretty moot here.

What's important is that an individual player doing 10 dungeons has 10 chances at loot + 1 guaranteed piece out of 3 choices from the chest. That sounds fine to me.

[justandulas]

That’s a good thing. Mythic+ shouldn’t be equal to raiding mythic. Maybe a notch below it between heroic raid and mythic, but not equal to raiding mythic.

Mythic raiding should always be the top source of the best gear in the game until there is a harder version

[Argorwal]

arent you forgeting titanforging?

So only mythic+ loot titanforged?

Also, would you "want" titanforging back?

[cuafpr]

sounds promising ... I stopped raiding cause I don't like m+ and started to fall behind in ilvl and didn't feel like dealing with constant nagging I need to be running M+. I also only care to clear HC these days mythic raiding doesn't interest me either.

[Lolites]

So only mythic+ loot titanforged?

Also, would you "want" titanforging back?

no, but bcs it could titanforge it was not "capped" at HC level, it could go higher... if there was a way to improve gear from M+ in shadowlands i wouldnt mind if the "base" level was capped...
i actualy liked titanforging, they should cap it based on source (HC gear only could getting slightly below mythic not above it for example) rather than remove it

[Baconeggcheese]

i actualy liked titanforging, they should cap it based on source (HC gear only could getting slightly below mythic not above it for example) rather than remove it

I liked thunder / warforge when it was only 6 ilvls. That kept the loot exciting for longer but it was still possible to get BiS and you didn't have an infinite grind.

[kaminaris]

I liked thunder / warforge when it was only 6 ilvls. That kept the loot exciting for longer but it was still possible to get BiS and you didn't have an infinite grind.

Nope you didn't. +6/+10 is irrelevant. The minimum cap on gear that actually does something is +15 because of math.
+15 is equal to 0.7-1.5% dps increase. And since, you know, one percent is barely noticable and way below the range of actual RNG it barely works.

TF should be like in BfA (severly nerfed chance vs legion) but capped at +15. Anything below and that system just doesn't work.

[callipygoustp]

Arguably its true though you mean to be sarcastic. Having a linear progression path would benefit far more players then the current method of simply adding difficulty modes to the game.

It might also clamp down on this weird mentality of "because I do A for twenty hours I deserve the rewards of doing B"

Convincing argument for "less is more".

[Pury]

Now casuals can enjoy their dogshit covenant "MeAnInGfUl cHoIcE" bullshit in their dogshit below heroic ilvl gear.
What? You don't need power, this damn min-maxers are bad and toxic, remember? You don't need ez loot now, when you have your RPG flavour OMEGALUL.

[paragraphgorilla]

good change, m+ is a plague on this game

[Dracullus]

there's a reason game is dead, there's a reason classic has more players. Try again.

I must use different Classic: