Mythic Raiding in SL = all other content not relevant?

[oblakoff]

Ion and co see WoW solely as an oversized lobby for instanced boss fights rather than an MMO.

People who want raids to be the one and only be-all-end-all of the game can go play classic and let the rest of the players enjoy a game that's grown over 16 years.

So...mythic dungeons are not instanced boss fights, right?

[Accendor]

There is still a reward. If you enjoy M+ then it should be enough. If you were spamming M+ for gear, then now you don't have to. Gear inflation in BFA was out of control and blizz obviously thought so as well. It's a good change.

Again, please read the op first. The point is exactly that there is no reward anymore.

[Whiskeyjac]

In theory, moving the rewards cap to +20-25 makes sense. In reality however, like PvP, M+ will never be balanced. There are simply too many class/specs to accomplish that in such small content.

Right now, with gear scaling and an expansions worth of knowledge, we're seeing some players push higher and higher keys... but the class(spec) representation as you get above +20, and especially above +25, takes a dive off a cliff.

For players who only do M+, do we really want a situation where if you want to obtain the best gear as a Healer you need to play RDruid (for example)? Even +15's early in the season can be a struggle for some specs, especially those who Pug.

Capping the rewards at a +15 ensures you don't need to playa Meta spec in order to achieve those rewards in a timely manner... assuming you have a group to run with. Pushing it out to +25 would punish anyone playing a non-meta class/spec more than the Pug world already does.

I think that is the major disadvantage to trying to make small group content 5s and to a lesser extent 10s a viable option for being the hardest difficulty. They would be required to be brought up to the level of current mythic raiding and that would mean a large swath of non optimal classes would find extreme difficulty in completing it even assuming each player played exceptionally well.

The only problem I see is it is hard for me to deny those pushing past 20 keys mythic loot at the reward suits the difficulty of such a task. I agree grudgingly that the current solution is the lesser of two evils but I still see it as a evil I just can't really work out a better solution.

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The nice thing for people that "don't really understand" it is that when there are more choices they have the choice to not use them. For the rest of us, that enjoy having more choices, when choices are removed we're kind of fucked.



Yes, you absolutely can. I have in the past. I will again in the future.

I would agree if there wasn't also a push for semi permeance. WoW for the past fifteen years has without fail rewarded players who where willing to adapt to challenges to overcome them. As early as vanilla a warrior who was willing to spec arms with a 2 hander and mortal strike and then respec into fury for raiding would excel in both fields.

What I dislike about the direction the game is taking is how these systems seemed aimed at not allowing top players to do so. Loosing an entire lockout of renowned (AP) isn't really something anyone should be willing to do during progression yet these talents act as any other dps talent row with those that excel in pve and pvp. In trying to create the illusion of choice and individuality they are simply going to push people towards having two characters for each class people want to play. One for pvp and one for pve.

[iperson]

Again, please read the op first. The point is exactly that there is no reward anymore.

There literally is a reward...

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So no choice has been removed for you or anyone else. Got it

I want the works
I want the whole works
Presents and prizes and sweets and surprises
Of all shapes and sizes
And now
Don't care how
I want it now
Don't care how
I want it now

[Krimzin]

Only if you clear a minimum of 4 (for 2) or 10 (for 3) +15 keys each week. That will not become a regular thing for a few resets at least (except for the very best players), and with the vastly reduced drop rate in M+ themselves, the wait will be even longer for non-raiders. That's not a problem in and of itself, but the wait is TOO long, if you're not raiding..

You make a couple good points, but you are missing big picture.
So if this were BFA and they reduced the drop rates it would be signifigant.
With the changes to the weekly chest, and the ability to get up to 9 choices, chances are you are going to get a Max ilvl piece you can use each and every week once you are clearing 15s.
With that alone, you will be full ilvl 226 in the first 90 days. So tell me again how that is TOO SLOW.

Even if all you are doing are Mythics, no PvP and no raiding you will still have 3 items to choose from each week. I think adding 3 more possible loot chances in the weekly chest will make a lot of folks who may not be raiders, into raiders.

We shall see.

[TEHPALLYTANK]

The point is exactly that there is no reward anymore.

That statement is objectively and blatantly false, are you really going to persist in repeating it despite that?

[Accendor]

That statement is objectively and blatantly false, are you really going to persist in repeating it despite that?

Care to explain again how it is false? Maybe it missed it.

[TEHPALLYTANK]

Care to explain again how it is false? Maybe it missed it.

https://www.wowhead.com/news=317979/...on-reward-redu

The point is exactly that there is no reward anymore.

So I'll ask only once more, are you going to continue making objectively false statements?

[tomten]

Oh look, you were baiting me. Shocker from the low post folks. Whose your main account and how long is it banned for?

Baiting you with truth? Why don't you explain what has been removed, exactly, be specific

[Baconeggcheese]

M+ Gearing needed to be brought into heel.

Also gotta consider that titanforging no longer exists, which is honestly probably thee reason for all of these changes. Before it always had the potential to titanforge higher up which meant it was ok for M+ to drop such high ilvl loot in such high quantities without a cap, because even once you had a full set you could still keep spamming it fishing for titanforges.

Now without that, they need to find another way to stretch that progression out. The reduction being necessary, but also the easier way out.

In theory, moving the rewards cap to +20-25 makes sense. In reality however, like PvP, M+ will never be balanced. There are simply too many class/specs to accomplish that in such small content.

Right now, with gear scaling and an expansions worth of knowledge, we're seeing some players push higher and higher keys... but the class(spec) representation as you get above +20, and especially above +25, takes a dive off a cliff.

For players who only do M+, do we really want a situation where if you want to obtain the best gear as a Healer you need to play RDruid (for example)? Even +15's early in the season can be a struggle for some specs, especially those who Pug.

Capping the rewards at a +15 ensures you don't need to playa Meta spec in order to achieve those rewards in a timely manner... assuming you have a group to run with. Pushing it out to +25 would punish anyone playing a non-meta class/spec more than the Pug world already does.

I made this post on the last page yesterday about this topic (is a bit long though):

https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...1#post52655004

In regards to meta's, I don't see that as an issue ultimately. It being 5 mans makes it tremendously easier to have a friend group to push with vs the maintenance that an entire guild requires for raids. Which means its much easier to play off-meta specs to push higher. With that example I gave the truly sweatiest of players with meta group comps will be able to maybe get a couple extra pieces a week (likely past when they'll even need any more gear) which isn't the end of the world. As long as every spec in the game can potentially push high enough to get to the mythic cap then its fine. And I feel like that is absolutely achievable.

[Celestraza]

This suits me very well.

I enjoy mythic raids but preparing for it was a tedious grind that felt like a 2nd unfun job.

Now I have the freedom and time to play what i want to next to raiding. I personally did not think WoD was so bad as most. I raided HFC and did what i liked besides it like Ashran or other games.

[callipygoustp]

Baiting you with truth? Why don't you explain what has been removed, exactly, be specific

Nah, I don't think I will; waste of time.

[Mendzia]

Very good change making me slightly more interested in installing the game after 3 years.

[Nachtigal]

Yeah, that's a meaningful response. If that's not disingenuous bullshit and you're not just trolling, you're reading comprehension sucks

How are you going to post nothing meaningful in the first place and then be like nice post bro??

[callipygoustp]

How are you going to post nothing meaningful in the first place and then be like nice post bro??

Same way you just did, except my initial post was on topic(meaningful or not).

[mauserr]

Raid logging finally back. Thank god. Fuck the nonsensical 24/7 grind.

[Minulk]

Dear wow M+ players,

It seems that Blizzard is going to ruin our M+ runs. Please read the following:
- Max iLvl you can get from M+15 is 210 - compared to 213/220 iLvl you can get from Heroic Raid and 226/233 from Mythic Raid.
- The M+ final dungeon loot chest will consist in only 1 item drop.

Take into consideration that 3 ilvl difference will be more significant than 3 ilvl difference in BFA.

I think this is going to turnaround many players which simply do not have enough time to stick for long raids.

All the credit for the details mentioned above go for Quazii (youtube - FORCED to Raid in Shadowlands?! ★ Mythic+ iLvL Gear NERFED).

What do you think?

[tomten]

Nah, I don't think I will; waste of time.

Shocking answer when all you have is entitlement and nothing has been removed.

[Lyrel8490]

How is this ruining M+ runs?

Yes 3 ilvl means more in SL than in BFA but it's a really small difference non the less so that's not really something to worry about. You will still prefer items with better secondary stats.

You still get your mythic ilvl item at the end of the week.

And please remember you cannot farm raids like you can M+.

[Hellobolis]

210 is fine. they often start m+ just below heroic raid ilvl an then up it a bit later to match it. (and i guess 220 is only from the final boss?).