Mythic Raiding in SL = all other content not relevant?

[Mystikal]

what?
You don't get 2x the same item as a choice in the same weekly chest but I don't think anyone has ever said that if you have 226 ilvl boots from dungon boss X you can never see boots from boss Y.

There was a tweet that was put out only a few days ago which showed a beta tester opening their weekly chest after doing 15 M+ runs and getting 3 necks as their choices. So, at least as recently as then, you can still absolutely get duplicate choices in the chest. So it seems that it is Blizzard who are lying.

If you can still get a choice of a slot which is 'filled', then that means that even a 5-6 month estimate may be off, as it would only take a couple of dupes to throw that completely out of whack.

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You do understand that m+ gearing is better in SL than it was in BFA? Having higher ilvl from a spamable source than hc raid loot is stupid, because it invalidates the hc ra id. And afaik the vault still offers mythic ivl quality loot only that you get 3 options now instead of 1. The only issue here is, that you cannot any longer farm hc equivalent ilvl for each slot so that you can trade all hc loot that drops.

You only get those 3 choices if you clear 10 +15s per week. You must also factor in the necessary clears to upgrade your key to that level. That is a lot of time spent doing nothing but M+.

[music49]

I think Mythic + is to easy for the gear it gives. I'm a casual heroic raider at most and I can get full mythic gear items from running mythic +?

I agree with the changes. But I wouldn't mind if you could get mythic gear for doing mythic difficulty mythic+.

You should be rewarded for the difficulty your doing.

[Gorsameth]

There was a tweet that was put out only a few days ago which showed a beta tester opening their weekly chest after doing 15 M+ runs and getting 3 necks as their choices. So, at least as recently as then, you can still absolutely get duplicate choices in the chest. So it seems that it is Blizzard who are lying.

If you can still get a choice of a slot which is 'filled', then that means that even a 5-6 month estimate may be off, as it would only take a couple of dupes to throw that completely out of whack.

were they 3x the same neck or just 3 different necks?
Kind of a big difference.

[Stormbreed]

honest question, please let's discuss this without hate.

from what i have heard and seen on the beta only renown (~1h/week) and Torghast (also ~1h per week) offer Character progression.

In addition to that we just learned that m+ gear will be before heroic raid gear.

this means that if you raid mythic, your are done with all your weekly stuff in 2-3h (depending if you choose to do 1 m+ for the cache).

ofc you could also do more m+ for more item selection, but this is very, very inefficient. still posdible tho.

i understand many people like this, because they are free to do other things ingame now. my personal problem here is, that I am actually only really interested in things that offer Character progression and those are now heavily timegated.

do i miss something? is there really nothing to do at max level besides the things I listed? would be a shame if this becomes a raidlogging expansion.

I agree the hardest content in the game should give the best gear. Thats how it is supposed to work, thats how it should always work, thats why Classic worked.

[Mystikal]

were they 3x the same neck or just 3 different necks?
Kind of a big difference.

I can't recall without looking at tweet again - I will have to try and find it, as I didn't save the link. All I can remember is that it was on the US forums somewhere.

If it's the latter, then that just makes M+ only even more punishing - because dungeons generally all have the same loot tables but with different stats, you're far more likely to have this occur then for raiding. Raiding, as I'm sure you're aware, distributes the slots more 'evenly' over all the bosses. 6 months to gear through M+ is starting to look more and more generous an estimate, rather than realistic.

[Gorsameth]

I can't recall without looking at tweet again - I will have to try and find it, as I didn't save the link. All I can remember is that it was on the US forums somewhere.

If it's the latter, then that just makes M+ only even more punishing - because dungeons generally all have the same loot tables but with different stats, you're far more likely to have this occur then for raiding. Raiding, as I'm sure you're aware, distributes the slots more 'evenly' over all the bosses. 6 months to gear through M+ is starting to look more and more generous an estimate, rather than realistic.

and?
no seriously, and?
Why does someone gearing purely off of running dungeons need to gear up to full Mythic gear in under 6 months?

[Peacemoon]

honest question, please let's discuss this without hate.

from what i have heard and seen on the beta only renown (~1h/week) and Torghast (also ~1h per week) offer Character progression.

In addition to that we just learned that m+ gear will be before heroic raid gear.

this means that if you raid mythic, your are done with all your weekly stuff in 2-3h (depending if you choose to do 1 m+ for the cache).

ofc you could also do more m+ for more item selection, but this is very, very inefficient. still posdible tho.

i understand many people like this, because they are free to do other things ingame now. my personal problem here is, that I am actually only really interested in things that offer Character progression and those are now heavily timegated.

do i miss something? is there really nothing to do at max level besides the things I listed? would be a shame if this becomes a raidlogging expansion.

I dare say the title of this thread is going to invoke a lot of replies that the content of your OP probably didn’t intend.

To be honest if you are raiding mythic then you’re at the cutting edge of progression and so other progression paths are always going to be limited because the gear rewards don’t compare with mythic raid gear.
But surely to get to a point where you are gear capped on every slot will take quite some time?

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It seems so, yes. Back to raid or die.

Hardly. Mythic raiders having a few extra ilevels of gear does not mean everything else is suddenly worthless.

[Redroniksre]

I dare say the title of this thread is going to invoke a lot of replies that the content of your OP probably didn’t intend.

To be honest if you are raiding mythic then you’re at the cutting edge of progression and so other progression paths are always going to be limited because the gear rewards don’t compare with mythic raid gear.
But surely to get to a point where you are gear capped on every slot will take quite some time?

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Hardly. Mythic raiders having a few extra ilevels of gear does not mean everything else is suddenly worthless.

People are just blowing the M+ situation out of proportion for 3 ilvls. A lot of people have forgotten what raid or die was like, however the only thing they have in common is i am pretty sure the open world and Torghast will be practically useless a few weeks in which kind of sucks ass.

[Huntermyth]

they clearly stated that rival or challenger tier pvp, +10 mythic dungeons and heroic raiding will be on par.

my wild guess is gladiator tier pvp, +15 mythic dungeons and mythic raiding will be on par as well. i am not sure on the pvp part though, may be lower.

[Gorsameth]

Once, long ago, raid or die meant there was literally nothing else to do in the game but raid. Not that the best gear came from raids.
The game has a lot more content for people who are not raiding these days.

[Thage]

Also, lets ignore every other expansion before WoD where it was also "raid or die". Though it should properly be made into "raid, pvp (though mainly raid) or die"

I just wanna point out, most expansions prior to WoD had multiple feasible gearing paths. In Vanilla, you had crafting, dungeons, and raids as gearing paths; PvP was only a gearing path if you reliably ranked among your server's best players and sank a frankly unhealthy amount of time into the game to keep up with GM/HW competition. In TBC, you had a gearing path from dungeons, raiding, and arena sets in PvP--even players sticking to BGs could amass the previous season's set as a catchup set, which provided casual players and PvPers who didn't like Arenas a gear path throughout the expansion. In WotLK, the game had one of the strongest dungeon gearing progression paths prior to the introduction of Mythic+ with progression from the launch dungeons, to ToC5/HToC5, to the ICC 5-mans, with ToC5 and ICC5 dropping tokens to build an initial tier set (much like how Vanilla allowed players to amass t0 and t0.5 from dungeons as a starter set). Cataclysm continued this with a dungeon progression path and the introduction of LFR.

MoP was the first expansion where things really started shifting into 'raid or die.' However, the plethora of reputations and new reputations brought in with each patch, as well as Battlefield: Barrens, provided a non-raid progression path, albeit a much shakier one than WotLK and Cataclysm. WoD was the first expansion where there was no reasonable gearing path or other progression curve for players who didn't like raiding or rated PvP. LFR gear was driven into the ground, world content had been boiled down to treasure hunts and mob-grind reputations that offered little of value unless you found a wolf that was a slightly different shade of brown enticing enough to engage in a second mob grind, and most of the non-raid endgame was boiled down to clicking menus at two mission tables until the introduction of Mythic dungeons.

One of the (very few) things BFA did right was provide multiple avenues of progression. One of the (many) things it did wrong was design the game so that those avenues of progression weren't target gearing paths for different demographics, but designed around 'forcing' players to spend as much time ingame as possible, which looked good for Blizzard's MAU metrics. Shadowlands seems to be returning to the notion of targeted gearing paths for different demographics, which is a good thing. Speaking as someone who only sets foot in a raid to finish up storylines and maybe get nice transmogs, or to run old raids for mounts and whatnot, I don't feel particularly oppressed if my item level is a little bit lower than someone who's getting this season's Gladiator title. The trick is to keep the rewards feeling nice for their target demographic without, for example, hiring Fischer-Price concept artists to design your LFR gear models, looking at you, WoD.

[Nite92]

There was a tweet that was put out only a few days ago which showed a beta tester opening their weekly chest after doing 15 M+ runs and getting 3 necks as their choices. So, at least as recently as then, you can still absolutely get duplicate choices in the chest. So it seems that it is Blizzard who are lying.

If you can still get a choice of a slot which is 'filled', then that means that even a 5-6 month estimate may be off, as it would only take a couple of dupes to throw that completely out of whack.

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You only get those 3 choices if you clear 10 +15s per week. You must also factor in the necessary clears to upgrade your key to that level. That is a lot of time spent doing nothing but M+.

Yes, but why should a not "mythic equivalent difficulty" reward mythic ilvl pieces? You get rewarded appropriate to the difficulty of the content you do, which is how it always was prior titanforging. I don't see why a heroic raider runs around in 475 ilvl pieces right now. It literally makes zero sense.
This change is also good for the r.io haters. Ilvl will again mean something.

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It seems so, yes. Back to raid or die.

What? Raid or die is just incorrect. Mythic+ still has a huge impact on gearing, it is just slower, as it should be, because it takes less effort to organize.
And besides that there is soooo much stuff to do outside the powergrind. There are four different story lines to experience, each comes with different side activities, like "build your abomination", pet battles, pvp, world quests, transmog and mount farming, a new leveling experience due to leveling squish, probably new allied races. And you can do all that, without sacrificing some potential power gain on your main.

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Idk man, WoD wasn't peak at all, I remember that expansion being hella "raid or die" and it ended up being a shit expac.

Raid or die was true for wow, but how is it true for SL? There is so much stuff to do. I am sure that many of you people who complain about the system never actually experienced them. I would not have such a strong opinion without actually informing myself and not only watch a YT video with the title "LOL, wow bad, give subs plz xD".

[NatePsy]

Yes, but why should a not "mythic equivalent difficulty" reward mythic ilvl pieces? You get rewarded appropriate to the difficulty of the content you do, which is how it always was prior titanforging. I don't see why a heroic raider runs around in 475 ilvl pieces right now. It literally makes zero sense.
This change is also good for the r.io haters. Ilvl will again mean something.

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What? Raid or die is just incorrect. Mythic+ still has a huge impact on gearing, it is just slower, as it should be, because it takes less effort to organize.
And besides that there is soooo much stuff to do outside the powergrind. There are four different story lines to experience, each comes with different side activities, like "build your abomination", pet battles, pvp, world quests, transmog and mount farming, a new leveling experience due to leveling squish, probably new allied races. And you can do all that, without sacrificing some potential power gain on your main.

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Raid or die was true for wow, but how is it true for SL? There is so much stuff to do. I am sure that many of you people who complain about the system never actually experienced them. I would not have such a strong opinion without actually informing myself and not only watch a YT video with the title "LOL, wow bad, give subs plz xD".

I was pushing 20+ before I stopped playing so you can see that M+ was my content, raiding is great and all but I don't have time for a schedule, M+ fit people with that similar mindset

[kaminaris]

People are just blowing the M+ situation out of proportion for 3 ilvls. A lot of people have forgotten what raid or die was like, however the only thing they have in common is i am pretty sure the open world and Torghast will be practically useless a few weeks in which kind of sucks ass.

You do realize that 3 ilvls is actually after the level AND item level squish do you?

I think it's safe to compare that to 5 current item level when it comes to actual percentage difference unless blizz screw up balancing.
Although we dont know stat weights yet.

Another thing is that currently M+ dropped one tier higher rewards than heroic raids, in SL it will drop one tier lower rewards than heroic raids.
So that is a massive nerf. Comparable to current 10 ilvls.

[Baleful]

They made a huge and an unforgivable error and we must ensure that they don't even think of repeating this error.

Oh boy you must have missed last 4 years of WoW where they made the same error several times and they still won't learn and try to re-invent the wheel for no reason.
Then again the average consumer this days is used to receive constant "updates" on "free" games so they will complaint about the game beign stale after two weeks even if they didn't complete even the 1% of the content, so i understand Hazzikostas trying to make this shit happen. But it won't.

[Stickiler]

Another thing is that currently M+ dropped one tier higher rewards than heroic raids, in SL it will drop one tier lower rewards than heroic raids.
So that is a massive nerf. Comparable to current 10 ilvls.

Except that's not true at all.

In BFA, a M15+ dungeon drops heroic gear from end of run chest, and the weekly chest drops mythic level gear.

in SL, a M15+ dungeon drops heroic-3ilvl gear from end of run chest, and the weekly chest drops mythic level gear.

[dcc626]

Except that's not true at all.

In BFA, a M15+ dungeon drops heroic gear from end of run chest, and the weekly chest drops mythic level gear.

in SL, a M15+ dungeon drops heroic-3ilvl gear from end of run chest, and the weekly chest drops mythic level gear.

bfa m+ drops 465 gear, 5 ilvls higher than heroic.

[Stickiler]

bfa m+ drops 465 gear, 5 ilvls higher than heroic.

Sure, but it's definitely not "a tier above", it's not dropping mythic gear in EoD chest.

[kaminaris]

Except that's not true at all.

In BFA, a M15+ dungeon drops heroic gear from end of run chest, and the weekly chest drops mythic level gear.

in SL, a M15+ dungeon drops heroic-3ilvl gear from end of run chest, and the weekly chest drops mythic level gear.

LOL, as previous poster already said, you are wrong.

To be precise (assuming item level scaling will be the same as level scaling)

current heroic drops base power level of 0%
current M15 drops base power level of 0.8%
current mythic drops base power level of 1.4%

SL max M+ will drop base power level of minus 0.8%
SL heroic will drop base power level of 0%
SL mythic will drop base power level of 1.4%

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Sure, but it's definitely not "a tier above", it's not dropping mythic gear in EoD chest.

by tier I mean minimal difference of gear power levels which is 5ilvls now and 3 ilvls in SL, while still being the same when it comes to percentage of relative power level. Because of scaling, unless blizzard actually squished that too. In other words, SL 3ilvl should be about the same difference in power than current ~5-6ilvls.

[corebit]

Current M+ rewards made heroic raiding completely irrelevant, and the repeatability of M+ made things worse, so something had to change.

I like the SL system. People who only participate in M+ and nothing else will still get mythic-level gear through weekly chest and end dungeon -3 item ilvls is not as bad as some people make it to be.