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  1. #421
    I heavily doubt that the dev. team did this change willy nilly to cripple one of WoW's most popular addition in the last few years.

    They probably saw the declining interest in normal and heroic raiding because Legions/Bfa iteration of M+ simply made it obsolete for gearing.
    And when we talk about normal-heroic level playerbase combined that's quite a few subs.

  2. #422
    Quote Originally Posted by La View Post
    Why would they put M+ rewards to almost mythic raid level? Consider the time, effort, planning, people and difficulty of mythic raiding, now compare it to M+. You think it should be anywhere near raid tier gear of the hardest difficulty? I don't think so. If you can have almost the best gear from doing something far easier and unlimited, why bother doing the harder thing for barely a higher reward? I guess you might say M+ scales forever so is infinitely more difficult, but that's not really how gearing in it has ever worked

    What your saying would make sense if M+ gear was quite a bit weaker, however you could get those close to raid tier strength items once or twice in a week, while removing the cache altogether, or something more sensible along those lines, sure.

    First off, you make the key cap at mythic difficulty level. If the dungeons are anything like BFA then it takes MORE planning not less to do high keys.

    Unlimited? you clearly didn't read where i said limit of 1 chance of loot per dungeon per week.

    How about we flip the argument. Do you think HC takes more planning than high keys? You think that it should reward less than HC level gear while potentially being harder than mythic raid?

  3. #423
    Quote Originally Posted by Nite92 View Post
    You do understand that m+ gearing is better in SL than it was in BFA? Having higher ilvl from a spamable source than hc raid loot is stupid, because it invalidates the hc ra id. And afaik the vault still offers mythic ivl quality loot only that you get 3 options now instead of 1. The only issue here is, that you cannot any longer farm hc equivalent ilvl for each slot so that you can trade all hc loot that drops.
    To me it's not stupid. I raid for the challenge and like goof around with different gear sets and would like to be able to farm those pieces without having to wait a week for a reset. If I so choose. High level PvP, M+ and mythic raid should all reward max ilvl gear, in my book.

    Now I would like to have titanforge back in the game just to maybe get an upgrade from m+. I mean, I do enjoy m+ but it would also be cool to not just, you know, disenchant/sell all the loot throughout a whole expansion.

    I'm probably a minority here though so I'll just have to get used to it
    Well met!
    Quote Originally Posted by Iem View Post
    Man even if Blizzard gave players bars of gold, they would complain that they were too heavy.

  4. #424
    Quote Originally Posted by LostLocket View Post
    I would of been happy with a tbc style progression system myself though I strongly disagree on the idea of effort mattering at all compared to difficulty. In my mind if a rabbit drops 1 leather for killing it killing a million rabbits should net you one million leather not ashbringer.

    I would welcome a return to tiers but I have no real interest in going back to such a simple game like classic. Tbc and wrath after the first tier? To be honest my recollection from that far back isnt clear enough to recall if the difficulty would be enough to interest me or not.
    For current standards I would say wotlk difficulty should be best. But not current retarded high tier use 10 auras and addons to aid in killing bosses.

    And you are wrong about the part of killing million rabbits because that is exactly how it works.
    If killing a rabbit gives you 3g, then killing million of them is enough to buy yourself a mythic raid boost.

  5. #425
    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    For current standards I would say wotlk difficulty should be best. But not current retarded high tier use 10 auras and addons to aid in killing bosses.

    And you are wrong about the part of killing million rabbits because that is exactly how it works.
    If killing a rabbit gives you 3g, then killing million of them is enough to buy yourself a mythic raid boost.
    I would speak out against boosting... but ive made 15 million gold this patch from it so it would be a little hypocritica.

    Wrath is a strange choice though... the first tier was too easy. The second was over tuned to the point it was cleared during its tier. Trial was sense as meh and ICC was tuned so it couldn't be cleared without the buff or the heroic weapons the lk dropped.

  6. #426
    Elemental Lord
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    Quote Originally Posted by MatPandaZ View Post
    All they have to do is put m+ to almost mythic raid level, remove the weekly chest altogether, and cap people to looting once per M+ dungeon per week. So you can loot one of each dungeon every week, giving you similar odds to mythic raiding.

    The only issue is if you do a better run later you wouldn't get loot. Small issue that has a few solutions.
    While I see what you're trying to achieve and agree with your general view, I don't think this would be a great solution. Just for a start, the way M+ works with random keys would make this a real pain in the proverbial posterior because you'd have a bunch of people fighting against RNG in order to try and get every dungeon every week.

    I really liked the loot system they came up with for Horrific Visions and I think that it could work very well for M+. The real problem with M+ was always the infinitely repeatable chest from each dungeon, especially when combined with WF/TF. If those chests simply started giving diminishing returns for repeating them, then the problem would be self limiting even when combined with a system like WF/TF.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LostLocket View Post
    I would speak out against boosting... but ive made 15 million gold this patch from it so it would be a little hypocritica.
    My only real issue with boosting is the large amount of spam in trade, or when it happens via real money transactions.

    Honestly, I don't see why anyone should have an issue with it though when all is above board. If you have a willing buyer and a willing seller, then it is, as far as I am concerned, a healthy element of an MMO game.

    People really need to stop concerning themselves with what other players are doing, and focus on their own needs and desires.

  7. #427
    Quote Originally Posted by Gorsameth View Post
    Irrelevant to your elitist ass, yet entirely relevant to the 98% of players do not engage in Mythic raiding content.
    I don't agree with the way that other guy is putting it but I do think it *becomes* irrelevant because of the weekly chest.

    When I do mythic raids even if I'm in a full set of mythic gear the raid loot is still relevant until I get perfect stats / BiS gear etc etc. M+ gear is irrelevant immediately upon having a full set of mythic gear outside of outliers.

    When I do heroic raids or M+ I cap out at heroic ilvl and then my next progression path if I'm not doing mythic raids is to max out my weekly chest chances and fill out my slots there. Eventually I'm full mythic ilvl via weekly chest and now M+ gear is equally irrelevant to me as if I were a mythic raider, it just took a bit longer.

    I made a long ass post I think in this thread earlier about it, but imo they should reward M+ up through mythic ilvl for doing commensurate content (which is absolutely not a +15 most of the time) but it also needs to have loot lockouts like the rest of the game does for high end gear. If its meant to compete with raids / pvp as a form of end game group content then it needs to be treated like it in every way.
    ..and so he left, with terrible power in shaking hands.

  8. #428
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scrod View Post
    Yeah the far bigger issue is that heroic is too easy given the gear heroic raiders can get.
    In theory maybe, but in practice not really.

    I would argue that for most heroic raiders, being able to get the best gear possible from M+ isn't necessarily that simple. Heroic raiders are neither as skilled as Mythic raiders, nor do they have the kind of gear necessary for being able to walk over high M+ keys.

  9. #429
    Heroic raiding, in my experience, really fell apart during BFA almost primarily due to mythic+. I didn't do mythic raiding in BFA but I suspect it was impacted as well. Mythic+ was too rewarding in BFA, relatively, and toning those rewards down has been one of my biggest requests(along with re implementing set bonuses) for nearly the entire xpak. I'm very happy with the change.

  10. #430
    Quote Originally Posted by Baconeggcheese View Post
    I don't agree with the way that other guy is putting it but I do think it *becomes* irrelevant because of the weekly chest.

    When I do mythic raids even if I'm in a full set of mythic gear the raid loot is still relevant until I get perfect stats / BiS gear etc etc. M+ gear is irrelevant immediately upon having a full set of mythic gear outside of outliers.

    When I do heroic raids or M+ I cap out at heroic ilvl and then my next progression path if I'm not doing mythic raids is to max out my weekly chest chances and fill out my slots there. Eventually I'm full mythic ilvl via weekly chest and now M+ gear is equally irrelevant to me as if I were a mythic raider, it just took a bit longer.

    I made a long ass post I think in this thread earlier about it, but imo they should reward M+ up through mythic ilvl for doing commensurate content (which is absolutely not a +15 most of the time) but it also needs to have loot lockouts like the rest of the game does for high end gear. If its meant to compete with raids / pvp as a form of end game group content then it needs to be treated like it in every way.
    As others have said, gearing up fully through the weekly chest is going to take a long time, potentially longer then a raid tier lasts.
    But I could see higher ilvl loot from M+ working under some caveats. The obvious lockout (1 item per week probably) and having to complete it within silver timer for example and +20, if not more.

    The big issue in BfA was grindable Heroic+ quality loot.
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

  11. #431
    reading tue this makes me wonder how delusional those casuals are about the "1" Item, im doing keys on the beta right now and its 1 BASELINE meaning: a depleto +15 gives 1 item, a timed +15 gives 2 and a timed 17 gives 3 and so on, dont be bad and you get more items time your 15s and you get almost the same loot as we have now on live (3)
    I.O BFA Season 3


  12. #432
    Quote Originally Posted by Gorsameth View Post
    As others have said, gearing up fully through the weekly chest is going to take a long time, potentially longer then a raid tier lasts.
    But I could see higher ilvl loot from M+ working under some caveats. The obvious lockout (1 item per week probably) and having to complete it within silver timer for example and +20, if not more.

    The big issue in BfA was grindable Heroic+ quality loot.
    I'm very skeptical that its going to take that long when you can pick from multiple options instead of just getting the 1 per week. Raid tiers are usually around 6 months apart yeah? I don't expect it to take even 6 months to get fully geared via the box yet alone longer. And remember that every usable piece of gear you get from it kills that slot for any content you'd be doing since in this scenario the heroic player is not doing mythic level content. Its not like you literally need to have every single piece locked in from the box before its tremendously undermined gearing for you from other sources.

    Of course you're going to need to get to that heroic point beforehand, but that is very doable without even stepping foot in a heroic raid with M+ not having loot lockouts.

    My quick brainstorm was making it look something like horrific visions reward structure. Every so many levels bumps the ilvl, and you can keep getting rewards as you push the challenge up but you'd only get the worse rewards for continuing at the same level until you've hit all the lockouts. IMO you should keep getting chances at loot if you manage to keep pushing higher in the 20's.
    ..and so he left, with terrible power in shaking hands.

  13. #433
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    While I see what you're trying to achieve and agree with your general view, I don't think this would be a great solution. Just for a start, the way M+ works with random keys would make this a real pain in the proverbial posterior because you'd have a bunch of people fighting against RNG in order to try and get every dungeon every week.
    I went in a little too confident with 'all they need to do' while my idea was more of a jumping off point. I think they could have done a little bit to change the way keys work also. There would be more to look into. I just think it's odd that 10 players can do easier content and get better gear from HC raid than people pushing keys. Maybe with all the changes to bonus rolls and loot it might work out about the same getting your weekly chest vs mythic, but the problem is mythic *also* get the weekly chest, so with that they end up gearing faster.

    Just seems odd that they specifically pushed the point that it shouldn't matter if your avenue is Raid, M+ or PvP and then gimp M+ gearing more than any other avenue.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Baconeggcheese View Post
    My quick brainstorm was making it look something like horrific visions reward structure. Every so many levels bumps the ilvl, and you can keep getting rewards as you push the challenge up but you'd only get the worse rewards for continuing at the same level until you've hit all the lockouts. IMO you should keep getting chances at loot if you manage to keep pushing higher in the 20's.
    I kinda like this idea in essence.

  14. #434
    Quote Originally Posted by Feral Druid ist Op View Post
    reading tue this makes me wonder how delusional those casuals are about the "1" Item, im doing keys on the beta right now and its 1 BASELINE meaning: a depleto +15 gives 1 item, a timed +15 gives 2 and a timed 17 gives 3 and so on, dont be bad and you get more items time your 15s and you get almost the same loot as we have now on live (3)
    What ilvl does mythic+ completion chests give compared to heroic raids if you know? I personally have just run mythic+ and havent really raided since legion and I don't really want to have to do heroic raids weekly.

  15. #435
    Quote Originally Posted by bmjclark View Post
    What ilvl does mythic+ completion chests give compared to heroic raids if you know? I personally have just run mythic+ and havent really raided since legion and I don't really want to have to do heroic raids weekly.
    literally NOTHING changes you will gear true weekly chest like you do on live, dont matter if you replace 210 or 213 gear for the 226 one. Now you have 3 choices instead of 1 to pick from, less usesless gear. This is a buff for you M+ casuals not a nerf and good M+ players will clear mythic in 2-5 weeks anyways and have even more to pick from in the weekly chest.
    Last edited by Feral Druid ist Op; 2020-09-28 at 04:54 PM.
    I.O BFA Season 3


  16. #436
    Quote Originally Posted by Nuciek View Post
    Since I'm mostly PvP player, I'd love it if it was just this to do every week.

    What I would like to do when I log in to WoW? Play arena with my teammates, go do some battlegrounds, duel with friends, do some occasional world PvP. M+ and raids when I'm in the mood. In BFA I had to do A LOT of things, a lot of things that I didn't want to do. There were so many things to do to stay competitive that I didn't had time to do the things that I would like to do. There are actually so many things I'd like to do in this game that I don't have time to do, because I have to do my WoW chores.

    I'd like to have more time for transmog runs, for playing my alts, I'd like to try pet battles more than once a year. Hell, maybe I'd even have time to actually raid again because I would do arenas instead of all those dailies and than I would have time to join my guild in raids more often.

    Looking forward to less chores and more fun in a video game.
    I was about to respond, but then you captured my thoughts quite well.
    Considering nobody was excited for end-dungeon loot in BFA either after the first month, and waited for the weekly dissapointment (which now is actual choosable gear), I'd say it's a positive change for most involved, that doesn't devalue HC raids, if I desire to pug them.

  17. #437
    Quote Originally Posted by Feral Druid ist Op View Post
    literally NOTHING changes you will gear true weekly chest like you do on live, dont matter if you replace 210 or 213 gear for the 226 one. Now you have 3 choices instead of 1 to pick from, less usesless gear. This is a buff for you M+ casuals not a nerf and good M+ players will clear mythic in 2-5 weeks anyways and have even more to pick from in the weekly chest.
    So heroic raids are 213 and max mythic+ end of dungeon loot is 210 i guess?

  18. #438
    Quote Originally Posted by bmjclark View Post
    What ilvl does mythic+ completion chests give compared to heroic raids if you know? I personally have just run mythic+ and havent really raided since legion and I don't really want to have to do heroic raids weekly.
    in shadowlands M+15 will give 3 ilvl lower then Heroic raids,
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

  19. #439
    Quote Originally Posted by MatPandaZ View Post
    I went in a little too confident with 'all they need to do' while my idea was more of a jumping off point. I think they could have done a little bit to change the way keys work also. There would be more to look into. I just think it's odd that 10 players can do easier content and get better gear from HC raid than people pushing keys. Maybe with all the changes to bonus rolls and loot it might work out about the same getting your weekly chest vs mythic, but the problem is mythic *also* get the weekly chest, so with that they end up gearing faster.

    Just seems odd that they specifically pushed the point that it shouldn't matter if your avenue is Raid, M+ or PvP and then gimp M+ gearing more than any other avenue.

    - - - Updated - - -



    I kinda like this idea in essence.
    I hope they soon remove key depletion and loosen up the timers a bit so the pug scene gets less toxic.
    Last edited by Tronski; 2020-09-28 at 05:09 PM.

  20. #440
    Quote Originally Posted by bmjclark View Post
    So heroic raids are 213 and max mythic+ end of dungeon loot is 210 i guess?
    yes but your gear will come from the weekly chest anyways thats blizzs plan for gearing, they redused raid gear drops too and have this big vault with up to 9 times to pick from this is how all will gear up (unless lucky in raid)
    I.O BFA Season 3


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