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  1. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by Cæli View Post
    what we need is lower gear drop. make epic really epic. 2 gear max on mythic for 20 people.
    we also need more bind on equip gear, but much more rare. more choice in the loot table, when it drops you know it has a lot of value, then you can either roll it or sell it.
    sockets are fine. as well as minor procs such as speed or indestructible.
    I hope gear is that rare on ptr.
    It's been 14 years since epic was made the new normal. Time to give it a rest.

  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    I have no idea why you keep bringing the bonuses they provide into the discussion.
    Because the bonuses they provide is basically an integral part of the set system.

    I already said it, i'm not going to engage in this discussion, done this enough times, the lines are drawn here.

    What i do however point out is that Azerite clogged up your bags like hell, if you wanted to engage in multiple modes (heaven forbid in possible multiple specs), then you needed like
    1. Single target pieces (3)
    2. AoE / M+ pieces (6)
    3. PvP (9)
    4. Offspec (12+X)
    We had some classes, like mages, who had to keep a 2-piece from the previous raid tier for "optimal performance".

    But, then again, you're talking about "optimal performance", and the amount of people who strives for bestl performance for every single aspect of the game they engage in are minimal. I guarantee you, that the amount of people who micromanages their set bonuses for single-target, AoE, PvP and everything off-spec are minimal.
    They're a subset of players who actively engage in every single activity in the game, who, by themselves, are a subset of the playerbase.
    I did a Necromancer thing. Check it out! All feedback welcome!
    Update 08/17: I changed how the Bone spec's golem mechanic works, as well as some other minor changes.
    I also did a Bard thing! Questions, comments and ideas, all welcome!
    Update 09/02: Apparently the mods decided to merge my class concept thread with an existing one.

  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by Cæli View Post
    what we need is lower gear drop. make epic really epic. 2 gear max on mythic for 20 people.
    we also need more bind on equip gear, but much more rare. more choice in the loot table, when it drops you know it has a lot of value, then you can either roll it or sell it.
    sockets are fine. as well as minor procs such as speed or indestructible.
    I hope gear is that rare on ptr.
    No we need the exact opposite blizzard is losing people because there is no light at the end of tunnel. Let people make builds and have fun if you are going to push diablo lite you need diablo lite level of gear drops they didn't learn this until midway through legion and it cost them badly.

  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    No, the difference is simply that those stats are not difficult to grasp in what they're doing.

    Virtually the same thing can be said about the current system of secondary stats, who knows whether Crit or Mastery is better for a Tank Warrior?
    So you're just proposing that you get rid of current secondary stats for tanks? Just have things like parry, dodge, block, etc on their gear? You'd have to add mastery to that set of stats since it's tied directly into their core mitigation. If so, you're back at square one. You're in the same boat then with the current set of secondary stats with balancing and research, with the exception that more traditional tank stats have soft and hard caps. And then, on top of it, you now have a completely segmented set of gear just for tanking. Is that the whole purpose of this? To force players to carry a second set of gear in their bags? To regear specifically as tank? To what end? What purpose would this have?

    If you want to append the tank stats to current secondaries, then YES, YOU ARE MAKING IT MORE COMPLICATED.


    You can obviously shift the relevance of active mitigation back to gearing.
    Why would you do this? Like what is the purpose? Like how would tanks even play? Would they play just like dps, but except now they have tank gear instead of dps gear? Some people actually like playing like a tank. You'd upset the current segment of the player population that actually want to tank. They made active mitigation more of a thing when they took the focus off of generating threat. You need to give players something to DO. That is the real purpose of active mitigation. Properly managing mitigation right now is the hallmark of a good tank.

    Now, if you're proposing that the current system of active mitigation is too difficult or complex for most the playerbase, then we have a completely separate argument than introducing an additional set of secondary stats tied to tanks.

    Imagine a spell that is affected by conduits gets buffed and sets off the domino effect that people now suddenly play an entirely different build.
    Yep, that happened.
    And then you can slot in a new conduit because it's stored like a library, and they don't get destroyed when you change them. Yep, that happened.

    Conduits don't have hard and soft caps that players have to independently look up and use a calculator to juggle. You look at a conduit and it says "Buff X spell by Y amount." This is super easy to understand. Blizzard buffed thunderclap? Time to slot the thunderclap conduit! You don't have to worry about "hey, I've just exceeded thunderclap's hard cap on damage, so I need to slot a different conduit." Parry, and dodge have caps.


    It is one, because those systems need to be needlessly relearned, a stat that increases something that reduces your damage taken in some fashion is not complex, especially for someone choosing the tank role.

    You call me obtuse yet somehow believe that those stats are complex.
    You're doing it again. I'm calling the management of said stats complex, since you want to deliberately misunderstand me. MANAGEMENT OF STATS.

    New stats aren't a new system, they are part of an existing system.
    Instead of focusing on Haste or Crit, you can now focus on tank specific stats.

    In other words, it's about replacing the current, generalized system, with a role specific one.
    So effectively, you just want people to collect a second set of gear in their bags.

    Of course, neither is however the guy who plays tank as an offspec.
    You could virtually say that same thing about Corruption, Legendaries or Azerite.
    I pity you. I really do. I've had the good fortune over these past years to play with players who were very good in more than one role. Limiting and segmenting gear is like putting a huge handicap on these players.

    Wotlk was the expansion where they buffed threat generation, it was a non issue ever since wotlk.

    That's why i said Wotlk, not BC.
    Hahahaha. No. Threat was an active part of gameplay for several expansions afterwards, otherwise I wouldn't have had so much fun watching idiot dps get splatted. I want to say that it was MoP where threat actually became trivialized.

    I doubt this discussion is somehow related to anythign that's going to go into SL.

    Quite frankly, the skittish affix sucks because it just randomnly turns something into a problem which is 99% of the time a given and there's barely any gameplay to actually counteract it other than do nothing.
    No, because your proposal isn't going to be in Shadowlands. This is directly tied to your proposal. For tank active abilities, Blizzard has traditionally balanced threat and mitigation. You're proposing to reduce the impact of mitigation, which would generally shift the gameplay more towards threat . . . if Blizzard hadn't decided that they didn't want to make threat a thing any more.

    Between Conduits, Soulbinds, Covenant abilities, Legendaries and Talents...this cannot happen at all, right?
    Deliberately misunderstanding me again. Conduits, soulbinds, covenant abilities, and talents are not gear. I'm pointing out issues with gear. Non-gear systems are . . . non-disposable. They'll persist throughout the expansion in the same form, and Blizzard tweaks these systems up until the first Mythic raid, after which these systems will typically not be touched (for the most part). This contrasts wildly with gear. What you're proposing is on gear. That chestpiece is going to be replaced the moment you get a higher ilevel one. That could be 5 min after you get the first one, or two weeks. It's not going to last very long. It's also where you're going to see a lot of variance. Maybe four different dungeons have a chestpiece along with the raids. Even replacing the same item can pose an issue. If you upgrade a normal chest with a heroic one, you might have a substantially greater amount of your tanking secondary stat. Well, now you have to check and see if that now puts you over cap, and rearrange all the rest of your gear to deal with it.

    Playing Classic as a healer, it actually felt good to get to point where Mana becomes less of an issue.

    It is a problem, but at the same time when your character plays virtually the same for the entirety of an expansion, you stop feeling any sort of progress.
    Which is bad in a game built on character progression.
    Go back to playing Classic. I'm going to refrain from being cruel here, but classic is very different than retail. I've been there, done that, not interested in it any more. If you like classic, that's great! Go, enjoy! But retail is a very different beast than classic. The gear scale is very, very small in classic. The fights are much simpler and easier. Everything is slower and softer. You're not going to see the arms-race issues in Classic. They didn't really start showing up until maybe Cata. They definitely were present in WoD.

    You still get a sense of character progression on retail, but it's subtle. I mean, if you're that into it, you can always just enable floating combat text to show you bigger numbers. You notice that filling health bars gets a little easier. But mana regen? If the cost of getting increased mana regen is a fight where dps instantly die to everything, and tanks can't have any latency or they get flattened, I'll leave it. The cost at that point is too damn high.

    C'mon, this happens to you once, then you should get the drill that Healer mana is not infinite.

    Mind you, the way you play dungeons now will be vastly different on the release of SL as well.
    I mean, you'd think this, but in my 15 years of experience with this game, that's not what happens. Hell, you'd think that people would figure out that fire is bad, but they still haven't gotten that memo either. You have to remember that each expansion has typically a 2 year lifespan, and most people don't play a healer. They aren't going to remember this kind of thing because it doesn't directly effect them.


    Seriously though, what problem are you trying to solve by dividing up gear the way that is proposed?

  5. #105
    With all the system already in place in SL I think we need to relax on the complexity or we will only have 100 people left in wow because the rest didn't want to go to school for 6 years to understand how to gear their character.

  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    I much prefer the "Azerite Armor" system that allows me to pick and choose which bonuses each individual piece of armor is going to give me, instead of the fixed bonuses that "lock" that piece of armor to my character, making me unable to replace it otherwise I lose the set bonus.
    when one trait is 3k dps and another is 30k dps theres no choice

  7. #107
    So are the ternary stats (leech, speed, avoidance) removed in SL?

  8. #108
    with all the other bells and whistles tied to player power, like covenants, conduits and leggos, which will be confusing enough to figure out what is best. im ok with gear being rather bland and straight forward.

  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by razorpax View Post
    when one trait is 3k dps and another is 30k dps theres no choice
    That's irrelevant. My point that each piece gives up to 4 bonuses at the same time, not counting the item level boost. Whereas with the tier set system, you need two pieces to get one bonus, and four to get two bonuses.
    I did a Necromancer thing. Check it out! All feedback welcome!
    Update 08/17: I changed how the Bone spec's golem mechanic works, as well as some other minor changes.
    I also did a Bard thing! Questions, comments and ideas, all welcome!
    Update 09/02: Apparently the mods decided to merge my class concept thread with an existing one.

  10. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    That's irrelevant. My point that each piece gives up to 4 bonuses at the same time, not counting the item level boost. Whereas with the tier set system, you need two pieces to get one bonus, and four to get two bonuses.
    you need 4 pieces to get the two bonuses now
    neck
    3 azerite pieces

    unless you are counting the generic "increase X stat by Y" bonus or the shield

    its not even fun because the bonuses havent changed since i think 8.2
    at least with tier not only did you get new looking gear but new bonuses instead of "well i better get to farming this piece of gear for the 5th time because the tier reset and its a 30ilvl gap

  11. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by razorpax View Post
    you need 4 pieces to get the two bonuses now
    neck
    3 azerite pieces
    You misspelled "twelve bonuses" there.

    unless you are counting the generic "increase X stat by Y" bonus or the shield
    Each individual azerite piece gives up to four individual bonuses. Even if we could the necessity of having to keep the neckpiece, that's TWICE the amount of bonuses for HALF the amount of pieces that tier set gear requires.

    So, even if we count the neck, we have 4 pieces of gear, and get 12 bonuses. Whereas with tier gear, you need 4 pieces to get 2 bonuses. Like, in that regard, the azerite gear system is superior to the tier set gear by a factor of six.

    Not to mention that the bonuses on the tier set gear are static, whereas with Azerite gear it allows you to pick-and-choose within a limited amount of traits for yourself.

    its not even fun because the bonuses havent changed since i think 8.2
    Ny'alotha introduced one new trait.

    at least with tier not only did you get new looking gear
    Tier set gear stopped having different models than the rest of their tier raid gear since Wrath.

    but new bonuses instead of "well i better get to farming this piece of gear for the 5th time because the tier reset and its a 30ilvl gap
    That's... exactly what you did with tier gear, too. You replaced it every new raid tier that is released.

    And, again, like I already said, earlier: the "azerite gear" system can be improved, just like the "tier set gear" system was improved as time went on.
    Last edited by Ielenia; 2020-09-21 at 05:31 PM.
    I did a Necromancer thing. Check it out! All feedback welcome!
    Update 08/17: I changed how the Bone spec's golem mechanic works, as well as some other minor changes.
    I also did a Bard thing! Questions, comments and ideas, all welcome!
    Update 09/02: Apparently the mods decided to merge my class concept thread with an existing one.

  12. #112
    We could get Armor Penn back and then at the same time bring back Combat Rogue and Blood DK DPS.

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