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  1. #321
    Quote Originally Posted by Lubefist View Post
    Pugging a +15 has way higher chances of being absolute clusterfuck than HC raids.
    absolutely false. go pug n'zoth

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lubefist View Post
    Sure bud. That's why everytime someone manages to pull together even half decent PR tournament server they are packed with old and new players and are crazy active.
    because people like free shit and are cheap.

  2. #322
    Orcboi NatePsy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kehego View Post
    absolutely false. go pug n'zoth
    One boss out of how many in that raid again?

  3. #323
    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    Apart from some exceptionally great pieces like Geti'ikku or the WM caster trinket, the gear from M+ is hardly that special, and my guild replaced most if not rarely all of it by the time we had Heroic on farm and most Mythic bosses down, which didn't take that long, and some of my guildies pushed 20+ keys easily.

    And if you manage to complete a dungeon in 15-20s minutes you hardly deplete, so I don't understand that argument.
    a carried key/key with people takes 20 mins
    a depleted key is 2 pieces of gear
    granted the wording could be better, but m+ has trumped raiding as a source of loot for what, 4 years now?

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    Quote Originally Posted by NatePsy View Post
    One boss out of how many in that raid again?
    go pug ilgy or xanesh or vexiona or drestagath or any boss that isn't tank/spank.

    I could call out like 60% of the bosses in this expansion, but pug raids are generally not even worth doing unless something like unguent caress or diver's folly is on the bosses loot table

  4. #324
    Quote Originally Posted by Kehego View Post
    absolutely false. go pug n'zoth

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    because people like free shit and are cheap.
    Rofl. You don't know what you're talking about. HC "progress" player spotted with dented ego for someone saying M+ is harder than the content his guild has made a real nice progress in for couple of months now.

    Also having played in alot of AT's just gonna say that you are fucking ignorant about that topic too.

  5. #325
    Quote Originally Posted by Lubefist View Post
    Rofl. You don't know what you're talking about. HC "progress" player spotted with dented ego for someone saying M+ is harder than the content his guild has made a real nice progress in for couple of months now.

    Also having played in alot of AT's just gonna say that you are fucking ignorant about that topic too.
    Lol buddy my guild is us top 100 and we get week 1 aotc and ce every tier.
    lemme ask you this, why else do you think people selling n'zoth kills are making millions from carries rn?

  6. #326
    You are rewarded if you fail in M+. But not in Raiding.

  7. #327
    Quote Originally Posted by NatePsy View Post
    It's funny though, I remember them speaking about Mythic raiding not making a return on investment (Dev resources) so how exactly is it the backbone of the game when it's highest difficulty is failing to net them a return on investment? Numbers-wise M+ seems to be drawing in the return on investment (Raider.io numbers are a pretty damn good example of that.) but they're being too stubborn to accept a neatly packaged gift when it's placed infront of them and instead take the piece of charcoal that is raiding and keep trying to tell everybody else it's amazing when really it isn't all that.
    HALO products almost never make a return on investment themselves, it's their effect on mindshare what it's all about.

  8. #328
    Quote Originally Posted by Tesshin20 View Post
    The math is still in the benefit of someone only doing mythic+, compared to someone doing only mythic raiding. By far. We see this in the game currently all the time. Working with recruitment in a mythic raiding guild I do actually have first hand experience in this.
    You don't know math then, absolutely.

    Oh so lets run a simulation for people that don't really understand the problem.

    Right now we have about 100 (98 for my spec without azerite gear- actually counted that) items form dungeons, lets call that dungeon loot pool. On the other hand raid has about ~30 (28 for my spec) items and that is raid loot pool.

    Now half of these items are useless in both cases meaning even lower ilvl can be better with good stats.

    That leaves us 50 kinda useful items from M+ out of 100
    15 items from raid out of 30.

    First weeks you will probably get upgrade anyways because of chances, but remember that vault also gives item if you killed raid bosses
    R - Raider
    M - Mythic plus guy
    Wx - week x

    W1: R: 50% + 49%, M: 50%
    After first week raider has 2 items and M+ guy got only one
    Pool of useful items get slimmer by one/two item slot (so all items from that slot, lets assume they both hit bis)

    W2: R: 46% + 48%, M: 46.5%
    After second week raider got 4 items unless he is extremely unlucky (but we assume medium luck in both cases)
    Pool of useful items got slimmer by another item slot for M+ guy and 2 slots for raider
    The crux here is that since vault ALSO offers items from raid raider got actually higher chance to get something useful than dungeon guy despite having more slots filled up.

    W3: R: 36% + 36%, M+: 43%
    After third week you can actually start see duplicates but since raid allows to trade items, you can also get something good from other people as well.
    Vault doesnt allow trading, if all your options are shit, then tough luck.
    Raider got 6 items, M+ guy got 3, that is average that can and will happen since high chances and loot trading plus coins that again, works in raid, doesn't work for vault.

    W4: R: 26% + 22%, M+: 40%
    And forth week is where chances are somewhat similar, even tho raider still has advantage, however statistics says they both get one item assuming medium luck.
    Raider got 7 items, M+ guy got 4 items.

    At week fifth, dupes are bound to happen in raid, raider continues to have advantage and has half the slots filled in, ready to receive 2 items (one from raid one from vault) and got coins just in case.
    M+ guy chances goes down to 36%.


    Now the formulas if you are interested in:

    We have ~15 gear slots to fill. Assuming equal distribution of gear there is around
    2 items per slot in raid
    and
    6.66 items per slot in dungeons

    Formula for calculating chance of getting upgrade in slot that hasn't been upgraded yet is:

    chance = ((totalSlots - filledInSlots) * (itemPerSlot / 2)) / totalLootAmount

    for example if you have 2 good items, you only want 13 items, you divide itemPerSlot because we assumed that half of items is total garbage.

    chance = ((15 - 2) * (6.66/2)) / 100
    chance = 0.4329 = 43%

    There is just no way to ever catch up to raider.

  9. #329
    Quote Originally Posted by Nnyco View Post
    And if you raid mythic, you get 1-2 items per week from bosses.
    At least and you'll also have HC of course that also gives much better loot.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tesshin20 View Post
    Completely false. If you take a fresh level 120 and make them do only mythic + for the same amount of hours as someone who is fresh 120 and put them into mythic raiding, the guy doing only mythic+ will reach the highest item level faster than the mythic raider 10 out 10 times.

    If your only reason to play the game is to get character power. Raiding is not worth it because of mythic+
    How do you come to that conclusion? First of all, Mythic raids gives you better loot and also, I can't recall a single tier where it took me some 20 weeks to get maxed out.

  10. #330
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    If you are of low power then 3 options of 226 gear will most likely be useful even if the loot pool is very large. I haven't done the math but let's just be realistic. And if you are of high power already where you only need a specific piece, then it's not really a disaster if are unlucky. You will always get the currency if you don't need any of the pieces. Again, I think everything will be fine and I'm very positive about the changes. It seems like you are being a bit too dramatic.
    And I did the math, M+ is not even remotely close.

  11. #331
    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    You don't know math then, absolutely.

    Oh so lets run a simulation for people that don't really understand the problem.

    Right now we have about 100 (98 for my spec without azerite gear- actually counted that) items form dungeons, lets call that dungeon loot pool. On the other hand raid has about ~30 (28 for my spec) items and that is raid loot pool.

    Now half of these items are useless in both cases meaning even lower ilvl can be better with good stats.

    That leaves us 50 kinda useful items from M+ out of 100
    15 items from raid out of 30.

    First weeks you will probably get upgrade anyways because of chances, but remember that vault also gives item if you killed raid bosses
    R - Raider
    M - Mythic plus guy
    Wx - week x

    W1: R: 50% + 49%, M: 50%
    After first week raider has 2 items and M+ guy got only one
    Pool of useful items get slimmer by one/two item slot (so all items from that slot, lets assume they both hit bis)

    W2: R: 46% + 48%, M: 46.5%
    After second week raider got 4 items unless he is extremely unlucky (but we assume medium luck in both cases)
    Pool of useful items got slimmer by another item slot for M+ guy and 2 slots for raider
    The crux here is that since vault ALSO offers items from raid raider got actually higher chance to get something useful than dungeon guy despite having more slots filled up.

    W3: R: 36% + 36%, M+: 43%
    After third week you can actually start see duplicates but since raid allows to trade items, you can also get something good from other people as well.
    Vault doesnt allow trading, if all your options are shit, then tough luck.
    Raider got 6 items, M+ guy got 3, that is average that can and will happen since high chances and loot trading plus coins that again, works in raid, doesn't work for vault.

    W4: R: 26% + 22%, M+: 40%
    And forth week is where chances are somewhat similar, even tho raider still has advantage, however statistics says they both get one item assuming medium luck.
    Raider got 7 items, M+ guy got 4 items.

    At week fifth, dupes are bound to happen in raid, raider continues to have advantage and has half the slots filled in, ready to receive 2 items (one from raid one from vault) and got coins just in case.
    M+ guy chances goes down to 36%.


    Now the formulas if you are interested in:

    We have ~15 gear slots to fill. Assuming equal distribution of gear there is around
    2 items per slot in raid
    and
    6.66 items per slot in dungeons

    Formula for calculating chance of getting upgrade in slot that hasn't been upgraded yet is:

    chance = ((totalSlots - filledInSlots) * (itemPerSlot / 2)) / totalLootAmount

    for example if you have 2 good items, you only want 13 items, you divide itemPerSlot because we assumed that half of items is total garbage.

    chance = ((15 - 2) * (6.66/2)) / 100
    chance = 0.4329 = 43%

    There is just no way to ever catch up to raider.
    your math is flawed from onset because you're doing it with the assumption M+ guy does 1 dungeon a week

  12. #332
    Quote Originally Posted by Qnubi View Post
    Or maybe weekly lockouts are an ancient and sub-optimal way to design your game as a service nowadays? You name the competition yourself, WoW is one of the very few Co-Op games that have weekly lockouts and subscriptions, maybe it's time to go with the time and remove these fragments from 20 years ago. It is very obvious that M+ is more popular than Raiding and part of that is that it's repeatable content with no real lockouts. A complete overhaul of "lockouts" would benefit WoW the most, it is just not up to par with modern game design anymore. The vast majority of gamers don't want to be locked out of content because the game says: "You can't play anymore with this character, go log into your alt if you want to enjoy content and receive rewards!!!" Without M+ I am confident to assume that WoW would drop it's playerbase very rapidly. Times have changed.
    Can you imagine the cries of “forced” grinding if raid lockouts were removed and you could just kill the bosses over and over??

  13. #333
    Quote Originally Posted by RoKPaNda View Post
    Nope. M+ was designed as an alternative to raiding so its gear should be equivalent.
    Then make M+ non-spammable, at least not for gear. If I can get 2-3 pieces out of a raid, you should not get more then that from M+. As long as its infinitely spammable, it needs to have other drawbacks.

    You don't get equal or better loot, and no limit.

    I'm sure changing this the other way around, ie. limiting loot you can get per week would be observed as far worse by the M+ players.

  14. #334
    Quote Originally Posted by Nevcairiel View Post
    Then make M+ non-spammable, at least not for gear. If I can get 2-3 pieces out of a raid, you should not get more then that from M+. As long as its infinitely spammable, it needs to have other drawbacks.

    You don't get equal or better loot, and no limit.

    I'm sure changing this the other way around, ie. limiting loot you can get per week would be observed as far worse by the M+ players.
    Exactly. 210 gear in all slots >>>>> 2 pieces of 213, 2 pieces 220, and greens elsewhere.

  15. #335
    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    -snip-
    All of that assumes a few things.
    The raider is doing as many M+ as the M+ guy or any at all. So you arent really comparing a M+ guy to a raider. You are comparing 2 M+ players where 1 also raids.
    Heroic raid vault rewards are = to that of M+15 vault rewards

    "After first week raider has 2 items and M+ guy got only one"
    Why is it assumed the raider is getting 2 items week 1 and the M+ guy gets 1?
    As far as I know you get to collect 1 item from the vault per week regardless of how many content types you complete.

    "The crux here is that since vault ALSO offers items from raid raider got actually higher chance to get something useful than dungeon guy despite having more slots filled up."
    No? unless a raid piece is on average more useful than a M+ piece of equal ilvl. This is a total shot in the dark and depends on the stats your class wants. Nya'lotha for example had 1 PIECE that was bis itemization for my class on all slots that use standard secondary itemization(so not counting azerite or trinkets) while M+ has a leather crit/vers piece for every slot and multiple on some of those slots. Now how does that effect the collection rate of well itemized gear?

    As you said raiding results in more gear trading so the acquisition rate of your well itemized pieces happens quickly in raid by comparison to M+ also the average coin value in raid is higher than that of M+(due to loot pool size per boss vs dungeon). So the value of the bonus raid loot slots on the vault will decline faster than that of M+ slots. A raider who doesn't run M+ will very quickly stop seeing upgrades from the vault.

  16. #336
    I like how people keep bringing up WoD but fail to mention Wrath and BC. Both considered the best expansions in WoW’s history, and both had raiding at its center. Raiding should always provide the strongest gear. It wasn’t a problem in the golden age of WoW, nor it would be a problem now. The only thing that should be plentiful is the amount of ways to get gear for raiding.

    On the topic of WoD and casuals. WoD failed because there was absolutely nothing to do outside of raiding. And people need to stop equating good content with gear. Good content can only reward cosmetics. A majority of casuals care more about cosmetics than gear. Otherwise, they would be raiding mythic. So no amount of gearing paths for the best gear in the game isn’t going to change that.

  17. #337
    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    if you think M+15 is (or will be in SL) below heroic barely above last normal bosses difficulty im sure you never progresed past LFR or M+3 without being carried...
    M+ has the ability to be nolyfed as it is, so having the ilvl for its gear be lower makes sense IMO. Want it to be on par with what it actually resembles, difficulty wise (heroic raid IMO)? Make it drop a lot less and have weekly lockouts. Stop looking for endless slot machine pulls that disproportionately toss gear at you compared to ye old standard of raids.

  18. #338
    Quote Originally Posted by Nnyco View Post
    And if you raid mythic, you get 1-2 items per week from bosses.
    That's only if you get funneled the gear. If you start raiding a new raiding at the beginning of the patch. 1 item every 2 weeks is somewhat the general rate to get an upgrade.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aggrophobic View Post
    At least and you'll also have HC of course that also gives much better loot.

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    How do you come to that conclusion? First of all, Mythic raids gives you better loot and also, I can't recall a single tier where it took me some 20 weeks to get maxed out.
    By raiding and doing dungeons for 15 years.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    And I did the math, M+ is not even remotely close.
    Then your math is flowed. It doesn't represent reality.

  19. #339
    Quote Originally Posted by Krimzin View Post
    What pisses people off about Mythic Raids is that most of them don't wanna put forth the effort to do them, yet wanna have the highest ilvl possible. They want easier content to drop equal ilvl so they can epeen without putting in the work. Easier content means less work.

    Mythic Raiding isn't for the faint of heart. Wiping for hours and/or spending weeks on one boss. Its not for everyone. Mythic Raids should always give highest level loot because it requires the highest level of commitment. Im not saying Mythic+ isn't difficult at higher levels but it requires almost no time. 30 min is nothing. Even if you fail the timer miserably, you still get loot at the end and out of your weekly chest. If you fail in Mythic Raid, you get NOTHING.

    Mythic Raiding > Mythic Dungeons and always will be. Thus it is being rewarded as it should be.

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    Because they cant have the higher ilvl without doing it and thats why they are pissed.

    Anyone arguing Mythic+ should have the same level gear as Mythic raiding is an idiot, Mythic raiding isn't easy and anyone doing it deserves the best loot.

    I do think high level Mythic+ should have the same ilvl as Heroic raiding though.

    The nerf to loot drop chance was enough, they didn't need to lower the ilvl as well.
    Last edited by DeiVias; 2020-09-17 at 06:35 PM.

  20. #340
    Stood in the Fire Recovery's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivank0v View Post
    You are rewarded if you fail in M+. But not in Raiding.
    This.

    And you get stacks of determination until you can finally succeed at failing lol.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeiVias View Post
    Anyone arguing Mythic+ should have the same level gear as Mythic raiding is an idiot, Mythic raiding isn't easy and anyone doing it deserves the best loot.

    I do think high level Mythic+ should have the same ilvl as Heroic raiding though.

    The nerf to loot drop chance was enough, they didn't need to lower the ilvl as well.
    Keep everything as it was... Add a lockout to the dungeons like everything else in the game has.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeiVias View Post
    Anyone arguing Mythic+ should have the same level gear as Mythic raiding is an idiot, Mythic raiding isn't easy and anyone doing it deserves the best loot.

    I do think high level Mythic+ should have the same ilvl as Heroic raiding though.

    The nerf to loot drop chance was enough, they didn't need to lower the ilvl as well.
    Keep everything as it was... Add a lockout to the dungeons like everything else in the game has.

    IMO base mythic and all keys should share a lockout per dungeon.

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